[PAmedic]

rumblings over on CCU's board that some feel the SoCon is gonna come-a knocking at their door. Would someone PLEASE tell me why this is such a big deal to some?

*EDIT: this is sort of a rhetorical question- I'm aware of the differences between the 2 conf. Think of it as a conversation point rather then a literal question. YEESH!

[LUconn]

In the heirarchy of conferences, the Big South is lower than SoCon on the pole. Everybody wants out of the Big South since it seems like only a few teams have made a commitment to get better. Now the SoCon isn't great, but people just think "hey, it's not the Big South" I wonder if Kalander lurks around on these boards?

[PAmedic]

actually, some of Coastal's guys seem to be of the opinion that they have raised the bar to the point where the BSOUTH is becoming increasingly competetive- therefore it may be just as advantagous for them to stay put.

[Ed Dantes]

Yeah, the answer is simple. And I know we've debated this before on this board. But still...

The Big South football conference has been around since 2002. When they were first established, they knew of five things:
1) That you need to have at least six teams playing for at least two years to be *considered* for an at-large bid.
2) With Liberty, Gardner-Webb, Elon, and Charleston Southern on board, that's four teams.
3) VMI was planning on entering the league the following year.
4) Coastal Carolina was planning on entering the league the following year.
5) Elon is leaving the league. That leaves five teams.

And yet, the Big South is not closer to admitting that sixth team than they were in 2002. And it is stunning to me... STUNNING... that they haven't picked off at least one team from a conference in all these years. You know that it wasn't Kallander's plan to just create a football conference, and then twiddle his thumbs for four years.

It's that lack of leadership that necessitates a move to a stronger conference. Liberty's goal is to be competitive on a national level, which I believe is feasible (consider what LU as done in only 35 years before you become a naysayer). And you know, you get better recruits if you have a stronger conference, meaning, more exposure.

(Which is why, I believe, LU's strongest sports -- such as track & field and such -- are successful largely because the athletes get as much exposure their as they would if they ran for UVA or something. Face it, it's true).

The Big South, obviously, isn't the answer. Neither is the Southern Conference, okay? But the Big South isn't the answer, and the Big South won't be the answer. They're going to languish as the red-headed stepson conference for a looong time, especially with Kallander at the helm.

LU is still many steps away from being competitive on that national level. If LU jumps to a stronger conference, such as the SoCon (and no, I'm not advocating a move to the Southern conference), they will still be many steps away from that goal, but one fewer.

(And for those people who say that LU should concentrate on winning in football and men's basketball before jumping... #1, we were good in both sports in 1997 and that didn't help, and #2 - we finish last in the Big South, we finish last in the Souther Conference. Big whoop. But at least we'll look nicer doing it.

[LUconn]

(And for those people who say that LU should concentrate on winning in football and men's basketball before jumping... #1, we were good in both sports in 1997 and that didn't help, and #2 - we finish last in the Big South, we finish last in the Souther Conference. Big whoop. But at least we'll look nicer doing it.

I've been saying this for over a year now (when the proboards site started). It should be a sticky. You should have to read that as a disclaimer to enter this site. You still hear the short sited argument that we have to dominate the Big South first.

[bigsmooth]

The SoCon has never seriously considered Liberty. whether is is b/c of our academic standards, the fact that we are the school founded by jerry falwell, which both of these arguements have not been made public, but many SoCon presidents feel or have felt this way. The SoCon is still a good conference, much better than the Big South, and i would personally love to see us there, as we could develop some good rivalries. but we are stuck in the big south period. in the big south's defense they are trying to get presbyterian...i know they are DII, but so were other schools before they stepped up.Once we get the sixth member the leagues football members must continue to improve on the field , upgrade their facilities, and then maybe the NCAA will grant a bid. as far as a coastal move.....certainly possible especially if they continue to play well. the key to this is kallander. he must get commitments from the football playing schools to keep the league going, and even map out a 5 year plan for the league. do you think elon is happy about moving?? their football team is dreadful, and really they are a bottom feeder in other sports too. but they love that SoCon name. deep down, they want to be back in the big south. Elon is really the reason that big south football is the way it is.

[Stevev]

The excuse about academics doesn't seem valid since that conference is not known for colleges with overwhelming academic standards, with the exception of Furman. The Falwell thing might have an impact in the back of everyones minds and I guess other excuses are made up to substantiate LU's not gaining exceptence to the Southern. I think that it is an administrative thing on our part. That is why we need to find an athletic director that can "push some buttons" and make the right moves so that we can get into a better conference situation than where we are at right now. Kim Graham seemed to be content to do great things in the Big South but did not look past that and it lead to his downfall. Thom Park was not at LU long enough to do any good. I believe that LU has the potential to get into the Southern or maybe the Colonial but all it takes right now is finding an AD who is willling to make sure that it happens and putting up some $ to do it.

[PAmedic]

Thom Park was at LU long enough to do any good.

I believe you meant was NOT at LU long enough, but your point is well taken and that was my initial thought as well. I am fervently hoping that the installation of our new AD will bring some resolution to this and other issues we are constantly bringing up.

A school the size of LU, in a conf as small as ours- should really be the standard bearer. The weight (or lack of it) that we carry strikes me as being disproportionate. It is CRITICAL that this selection (AD) is dead on or we are going to flounder for another 5 years. STRONG LEADERSHIP is a MUST.

[Stevev]

I made the change you brought up PAMedic. I didn't mean to confuse you with that comment. Maybe LU is taking there time on getting an AD because we want to bring in someone with the desire to take us to another level and it all starts with having the proper leadership.

[PAmedic]

I think you are right on w/ the theory behind the apparent time delay in selecting an AD. No point in rushing it now- select the RIGHT person, no matter how long it takes (well, w/in reason. It should be done by late spring/ early summer or the fall sports may be affected)

[LUconn]

Ah, but it all goes back to, "how much power does the AD really have?" Is Jerry in charge and the AD is merely a fundraising figurehead, or has Jerry only taken control because we haven't had an AD with any sense? questions questions.

[bigsmooth]

back in the mid 90's LU actively pursued SoCon membership. we also tried the A-10 route, and the commissioner came out and said no way. the majority of SoCon schools have very good academic standards and are quite selective. davidson, furman, wofford and coll. of charleston are not easy to get into. out of these schools i know only furman and wofford are football members, but overall the standards of SonCon schools are better than the Big South. i encourage any doubters to look at the US News report on the best colleges. it is very comprehensive.

[Stevev]

I guess I forgot about Davidson which is very selective. I can't see App State, Georgia Southern, Western Carolin, or UTC being academic superpowers but I could be wrong about that assumption. I was very upset about the rating I saw for Liberty about 10 years ago so I guess I am afraid to want to find out.

I guess all the LU moving to the Socon talk will have to be put on hold until we can get our "money sports" at a more competitive level. Right now we are kind of looking like Savannah State out there.

[Sly Fox]

The SoCon has different standards for football schools than non-football members. Its true that Wofford in particular has stringent standards. But none of that has anything to do with us not being a member. We began applying to the league when we first went Division I. We even hosted SoCon television shows & games in an effort to use our resources to become more attractive to the league. But they appear to have a real problem considering a school attached to Jerry Falwell. The Catholic bishops who oversee most of the A-10 schools wouldn't even give us the time of day when we approached them.

Neither league is really possibility at this point. The CAA is our best shot at a regionally based conference. But the only way we can get in with them is if they have split based on their mammoth number of schools (which is a very real possibility). The CAA would give us considerably more natural rivals.

Bottom line, we have the Big South for the time being. And we'll likely stay here until we step up to I-A status.

[jimflamesfan]

Anyone hear anything else about the MEAC/SWAC thing. If the Big South could pick up South Carolina State & Norfolk State, then add Presbyterian, we'd have 8 football and 12 basketball teams.

I do think that the Big South schools are improving in terms of competiveness (who would have thought Coastal would be so good so fast, and who would have thought that CSU would win the Big South).

And with basketball, CSU and VMI have fairly new coaches.

I'm happy that we have the Big South as a conference. The girls sweet 16 run wouldn't have happened without the Big South.

In the long term, if were serious about becomming better, we will need to make the move in the future. But I do not hate the Big South...I cheer for the other Big South teams to keep improving!

[jimflamesfan]

Of course LU needs to keep improving, too!

[bigsmooth]

trust me on this. our open admissions policy back then was a big factor in the SoCon not giving LU any consideration, but the main sticking point is dr. falwell. when i worked at VMI i was privvy to some info on this topic. let's just hope the big south will continue to get better.

[Sly Fox]

Its sad to say that people will pass on a win-win situation as far as conference affiliation is concerned just because they don't want to enable Dr. J. succeeding. Its a sad but frustrating truth.

[Agent2Be]

Sly - can you give us some insight on our brothers in the midwest - Oral Roberts? They seem to have no issues with conference affiliation. What is their secret?

[Sly Fox]

They are in a completely different situation. In this part of the country, there aren't colleges in every town. So if you are a DI program that funds yourself properly, then you shouldn't have issues (i.e. BYU who isn't exactly loved by others). And the Roberts family hasn't been visible on a national scale in close to two decades. So they don;t have all the detractors that Jerry posseses.

[PAmedic]

another pearl from the CCU board

Just wanted to add a couple things on this discussion. Last week I was talking with a CofC coach who had just attended a SoCon Coaches' Meeting in Spartanburg.

He said one of the topics of discussion was CCU moving to the SoCon. He would not give me specifics of the discussions but told me he thought it would happen soon. He said there were a few things to iron out but it should happen. I asked about a division between public and provate schools over CCU's admission. He said there was no division like that in the coaching circles, but maybe with administrators. He is hopful that it happens.

He also said PC has inquired about joing the SoCon. He said they were told that they should join the Big South and maybe down the road apply to the SoCon.

[PAmedic]

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the fact that, after 2 decent years of FB, they have "outgrown" the BSOUTH (besides the obvious fact that the conf is pretty weak in general). What else have they done to be THAT far and away better than the rest of the conf? Its not like I see them on Sports Center every morning.

I see another Elon happening. Esp if the FB team doesn't dominate this year- and I fully expect them NOT to. Methinks this is a bit premature, no disrespect intended to those guys.

[bigsmooth]

if they go they go. i think they will be better than elon, but not challenging for a SoCon title anytime soon. the big south has not been proactive about expansion so would it be surprising??? no way. coastal will regret moving just like elon did.

[LUconn]

I hate the Big South. But at the moment it's not because of it's current status. I just can't stand the fact that the people in charge seem so pleased with what they have right now. Let's get agressive KK. What exactly do you do all day? Hopefully stuff is going on that we just don't hear about.

[Sly Fox]

If KK hasn't been strongly courting the following schools (at the minimum) then he should be canned immediately:

The Citadel
Elon
Hampton
NC A&T
South Caroina State
Delaware State
Prebyterian

There has been little to no evidence that we have been proactive in any of these possibilities. It appears PC is probably coming our way but only as a last resort. Presby won't do as much good for several years. Any of the others could put us in line for an auto bid immediately (or at least in position to force the NCAA's hand).