[Jonathan Carone]

It originated in China.

And after their initial lock down, they were able to open back up and have controlled the spread through masks and localized shutdowns for hotspots.

Hong Kong has a 97% mask rate on public transit and they've been able to combat the spread very successfully.

South Korea wears masks routinely and they're back open.

Vietnam wears masks and went 99 days with no community transmission.

The Philippines has had 25% the death rate as the US and they mask regularly.

Because viruses originate in Asia so much more than here, they have significantly more experience fighting them that we do. Yet American Exceptionalism can't for a minute look at what other countries do and try to adopt it without first trying our own thing.

[Purple Haize]

That’s a lot of assumption on the validity of stats coming out of China and other Countries. But if you look at how exactly some of those countries enforce their edicts I’ll pass. It would be totally impractical to do in the US. There was much more to how other countries that say they curbed the virus than masks. But sure, blame America.

[Jonathan Carone]

I don't blame America. I blame American Exceptionalism. There are plenty of people across the country (I'd argue even the majority of people) who don't believe that because we're America we're inherently smarter than the rest of the world who are doing their part to combat the spread of the virus.

[Purple Haize]

I don't blame America. I blame American Exceptionalism. There are plenty of people across the country (I'd argue even the majority of people) who don't believe that because we're America we're inherently smarter than the rest of the world who are doing their part to combat the spread of the virus.

You said that American Exceptionalism means we don’t look at what other Countries do and mimic them. That’s both true and false. There hasn’t been a one size fits all approach to this situation. Guarantee you had the US adopted the same measures some Asian Countries did you’d hear just as much screaming as you do now. You can’t just cherry pick one or two things that you think work. I’m kinda glad America does their own thing because we are founded as a great experiment.

[olldflame]

As the body of evidence supporting the effectiveness of Hydroxycholorquine in early treatment and as a preventative for Covid-19 grows, it is interesting to see that a lot of the negative publicity for the drug is stemming from a curious source; people with ties to Gilead Sciences, the makers of "competing" drug remdesivir.

[Purple Haize]

Sheryl does some good work. There’s gonna be big money for whoever comes out with the replacement for Remdisivir. Right now Pfizer just landed a contract but AZ was in the mix. HCQ really seems to have some efficacy but unfortunately Trump touted it so it’s a non starter for lots of people

[olldflame]

Sheryl does some good work. There’s gonna be big money for whoever comes out with the replacement for Remdisivir. Right now Pfizer just landed a contract but AZ was in the mix. HCQ really seems to have some efficacy but unfortunately Trump touted it so it’s a non starter for lots of people

And think how stupid and tragic that is.

[Jonathan Carone]

It's not that Trump touted it. It's that there's been a lack of peer reviewed studies on its effectiveness. Those are starting to come out and we're learning when paired with two other drugs, it can have success in the early stages.

However, when Trump started touting it, people started buying up the wrong versions on their own outside of medically given prescriptions and that can have deadly side effects. The FDA had to warn against using it and as of June 15, they've revoked the emergency use authorization of it to treat COVID patients.

On July 1, the FDA put out a report that included "reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure."

Then yesterday you've got a doctor who believes we use alien DNA for vaccines and that ovarian cysts are caused by demon sex dreams supporting it in a conspiracy theory video that the president tweeted.

Hydroxychloroquine might end up being a part of a treatment for COVID, but we simply don't have the science yet to show us it's the end all fix the president has been touting it as.

[olldflame]

Here is what the teachers union in Los Angeles is demanding before they will return to work. Trigger warning. It's basically a combination of the entire BLM agenda and the green new deal.

https://www.hoover.org/research/teacher ... Angeles%20(UTLA,classrooms%20once%20restrictions%20are%20lifted.

[olldflame]

It's not that Trump touted it. It's that there's been a lack of peer reviewed studies on its effectiveness. Those are starting to come out and we're learning when paired with two other drugs, it can have success in the early stages.

However, when Trump started touting it, people started buying up the wrong versions on their own outside of medically given prescriptions and that can have deadly side effects. The FDA had to warn against using it and as of June 15, they've revoked the emergency use authorization of it to treat COVID patients.

On July 1, the FDA put out a report that included "reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure."

Then yesterday you've got a doctor who believes we use alien DNA for vaccines and that ovarian cysts are caused by demon sex dreams supporting it in a conspiracy theory video that the president tweeted.

Hydroxychloroquine might end up being a part of a treatment for COVID, but we simply don't have the science yet to show us it's the end all fix the president has been touting it as.

"It's something we should be looking at" That's about as close as Trump has gotten to touting it as an "end all fix". Every medication has side effects and is contraindicated for some people. This is a prescription medication, and no one is suggesting it be used without doctor approval. It has been used world-wide for 40 years and has generally been found safe. I took it myself prior to mission trips to South Africa and Brazil many years ago.

Yes, it does appear this doctor has said some crazy things in the past. I would be interested in seeing some fact-checking on whether the first-hand success for this medication she is claiming is accurate, which is far more relevant. Here is a source you probably trust citing a "surprising" study showing it has had a positive effect on the survival rate of Covid patients in hospital.

[Jonathan Carone]

I don’t find those results surprising at all. I was one of the first on here to mention it when the possibilities of it helping started coming out in March. However, I believe in needing the studies and if the clinical trials prove it to be true, great!

The problem with the president is he doesn’t understand the idea that when he says something in passing, his followers take it as gospel truth. It’s the case with anyone in leadership. What leaders do in moderation their followers do in excess.

So when he says this:

"I can only say that from my standpoint, and based on a lot of reading and a lot of knowledge about it, I think it could have a very positive impact in the early stages.

"I don't think you lose anything by doing it, other than politically it doesn't seem too popular."

It’s almost guaranteed his supporters - who are largely distrusting of science and media - are going to take him at his word and try to find a way to use the drug he’s suggesting.

It’s dangerous leadership which has been proven by the FDA feeling the need to put out multiple guidelines after Trump has touted the drug.

I get that he’s optimistic - I am too! - but there’s a responsibility when you have his influence that he either doesn’t seem to grasp, is willfully ignorant of, or is purposefully using in a dangerous way.

[Purple Haize]

The dichotomy is striking. Peer reviewed studies show masks aren’t effective but we must wear them because they are better than nothing
Multiple physicians successfully treat with HCQ but we shouldn’t use it because there are no peer reviewed studies on its effectiveness on The Rona.

You also make the point by lamenting the fact that Trump even MENTIONED HCQ and how people were then going out and asking questions. The typical suspects in the media excoriated him for it. Several claimed he was signing the death warrants of his followers. It’s absolutely true that HCQ has been shunned because Trump brought it up. No greater example then was the loudly touted study saying it had no effect, and the silence that followed when it was found to be flawed. Compared with the non reporting of the study showing the success of HCQ.
But yeah. Trump supporters are totally ant science and stuff

[Jonathan Carone]

The difference in the studies of hcq and masks is that when people take hcq when they aren’t supposed to and without a prescription from a doctor, they have dangerous or fatal side effects. When people wear a mask, they are slightly inconvenienced. The stakes between the two are massively different so when the peer reviewed studies don’t show a conclusive answer, you can ethically suggest the one that doesn’t result in serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure.

Also - I don’t mind the president mentioning hcq. It’s how he mentioned it. Like many things he does, because he doesn’t take the time to choose his words carefully, he mentioned it in a dangerous way. He could’ve easily framed it in ways that were more acceptable. His idea wasn’t necessarily wrong, but the execution was terrible. That’s what will go on the headstone of his presidency in my opinion.

[Purple Haize]

I stopped reading after your first sentence. How do you take HCQ without a prescription?

[thepostman]

Man, this thread is brutal to read most of the time.

When it comes down to it, people (myself included if I'm being honest) are gravitating to studies that help validate how they personally feel. It is the main reason I have stopped attempting to have any kind of real discussion with people on this. I try my best to read from a variety of sources and take care of my family. That is all I can do.

These conversations are just extremely tiring for me at this point. I'm glad you guys are staying at but I don't have the energy for it anymore.

[Purple Haize]

Man, this thread is brutal to read most of the time.

When it comes down to it, people (myself included if I'm being honest) are gravitating to studies that help validate how they personally feel. It is the main reason I have stopped attempting to have any kind of real discussion with people on this. I try my best to read from a variety of sources and take care of my family. That is all I can do.

These conversations are just extremely tiring for me at this point. I'm glad you guys are staying at but I don't have the energy for it anymore.

I just get ruffled when called “science denier”. Here is what I know. There is no sliver bullet. HCQ is not going to cure you by itself but it seems apparent it can certainly help in a cocktail early on. Wearing a mask is not going to keep you from getting or spreading the Rona but if you want to wear one or not that up to you.
If we are going to make National (or even State) policy there has better be sound reason and evidence for it.

[Jonathan Carone]

You’ve gotten good at taking statements I make that do not say things absolutely and turning them into absolutes.

I said largely anti-science, not totally anti-science. Largely is over 51%. Totally is 100%. There’s a giant gulf between the two.

As for HCQ with no prescription, it’s happened multiple places. Nursing homes have given it to patients who hadn’t been tested positive and without the oversight needed (source), a rehab center gave it to patients without approval (source), and the FDA had to put a letter out telling people not to use chloroquine phosphate found in fish cleaner as an HCQ equivalent (source).

I get that these things don’t apply to you and many on this message board. However, a large portion of Trump’s base does not have the education or critical thinking experience you all do.

[Sly Fox]

Apparently some folks with direct experience are perceived to be too emotional to be alllowed entry into a discussion.

[Purple Haize]

Your entire post failed to answer my question. How do you take HCQ without a prescription? In every source you provided it was prescribed. According to your last statement the people prescribing and running the clinics must be Trump supporters and lack the education or critical thinking and experience to hold the actual licenses and degrees they hold.
The fact you think a large portion of Trump supporters are uneducated and inexperienced lends one to believe you think non Trump supporters are much more educated and experienced. Which is only slightly insulting

[Purple Haize]

Apparently some folks with direct experience are perceived to be too emotional to be alllowed entry into a discussion.

Feel free to jump in. I just got off the phone with a friend in Miami. Her daughter had the Rona. Wasn’t too bad she said. About Two days were awful. My friend has been tested multiple times since the last week in June. She’s come up positive every time. Only “symptoms” have been a runny nose here or there and an occasional headache. But she feels great basically and is going to be switching the type of test she’s taking on Thursday to see if that makes a difference

[olldflame]

You’ve gotten good at taking statements I make that do not say things absolutely and turning them into absolutes.

I said largely anti-science, not totally anti-science. Largely is over 51%. Totally is 100%. There’s a giant gulf between the two.

As for HCQ with no prescription, it’s happened multiple places. Nursing homes have given it to patients who hadn’t been tested positive and without the oversight needed (source), a rehab center gave it to patients without approval (source), and the FDA had to put a letter out telling people not to use chloroquine phosphate found in fish cleaner as an HCQ equivalent (source).

I get that these things don’t apply to you and many on this message board. However, a large portion of Trump’s base does not have the education or critical thinking experience you all do.

I guess the curtain is drawn now as to what you think of Trump supporters.

[Purple Haize]

No. Only “a large portion “. Not the people here. Just “those people “.

[Jonathan Carone]

The fact you think a large portion of Trump supporters are uneducated and inexperienced lends one to believe you think non Trump supporters are much more educated and experienced. Which is only slightly insulting

In the current population, white people without college degrees make up 42% of the population - one of the largest voting blocks we have.

59% of those voters are Republicans or lean Republican in 2019. That's the highest percentage of that vote going to one side since it's been tracked. According to a poll released last month by Pew, white men without a college education lean Republican 62% of the time.

In 2019, only 41% of college educated white people were conservative leaning. That's down 9 percentage points since 2012. In the three years since Trump was elected, he lost 6% of the white college educated voting block.

According to a study released last month by Pew, white non-college voters make up 57% of all GOP voters.

I'm sorry you feel insulted by those stats - it's not my intent at all. I'm simply looking at the data and comparing it to what I see anecdotally and the conclusion it tends to point to is a large portion of Trump's base is uneducated. Formal education isn't the end all be all and there are tons of smart people who haven't gotten a college degree, but there's a reason we value education in this country.

[flamehunter]

The fact you think a large portion of Trump supporters are uneducated and inexperienced lends one to believe you think non Trump supporters are much more educated and experienced. Which is only slightly insulting

In the current population, white people without college degrees make up 42% of the population - one of the largest voting blocks we have.

59% of those voters are Republicans or lean Republican in 2019. That's the highest percentage of that vote going to one side since it's been tracked. According to a poll released last month by Pew, white men without a college education lean Republican 62% of the time.

In 2019, only 41% of college educated white people were conservative leaning. That's down 9 percentage points since 2012. In the three years since Trump was elected, he lost 6% of the white college educated voting block.

According to a study released last month by Pew, white non-college voters make up 57% of all GOP voters.

I'm sorry you feel insulted by those stats - it's not my intent at all. I'm simply looking at the data and comparing it to what I see anecdotally and the conclusion it tends to point to is a large portion of Trump's base is uneducated. Formal education isn't the end all be all and there are tons of smart people who haven't gotten a college degree, but there's a reason we value education in this country.

Yep. Makes people with no common sense feel important.

[Purple Haize]

The fallacy is equating a degree to education. Or intelligence

Not too mention you were very racially specific