[SuperJon]

We could get the Jim Tressel of BB, but once he turns us into Youngstown State, he'll book for Ohio State. What I always liked about Meyer and Dunton is their loyalty to LU and that neither was ever trying to be the next head coach at North Carolina. They both viewed LU as more than a job and approached it with a real sense of purpose.

You're kidding yourself if you think LU is a one-stop shop for coaches. It's not. We're a stepping stone. Everyone at WU knows Marshall is going to leave when a good team comes calling. Shoot, he left for CofC last year. Once he does, they'll find another good up and coming coach who will keep the program going, and then eventually he'll leave, and they'll repeat the process. That's what schools at our level do. We get the Danny Rocco's of the world, let them build a program, and then after they have a good amount of success we say thank you when they move on to bigger things, and we find someone to keep it going. It's life.

[JDUB]

good thing he aint tryin to get on at north carolina, he's barely getting by here. if we had a coach with the potential of eventually going to a high prestige school like carolina then we'd be in a better situation now

[jmdickens]

A.G. You beat me to the point.....

I took the advice of Hold My Own a while ago. Ask some of our players here and those that left and see what the consensus is with loyalty to the coach.....man, do you even have evidence for that point??? Obviously not

[Cider Jim]

Do any old timers remember the name of the Florida assistant coach that we rejected in favor of Hankinson? The vote was so close that the Florida assistant's name and pic even appeared in the Lynchburg paper, because they thought we had hired him over Hankinson.

[TDDance234]

It's fairly obvious Dunton has lost these guys. Of course, if these players have quit on him, shame on them but thats the point where you have to step in and say, enough is enough, it's time for a change.

[thepostman]

it's 7600... there are not 9000 useable seats!!!!!

are there really 1400 missing seats?? I know there are some, but that is a bit high isn't it?? I guess you may know more then me, it just seems a little high...

[paradox]

You're kidding yourself if you think LU is a one-stop shop for coaches. It's not. We're a stepping stone.

This university has historically hired coaches who fit the profile of what I just mentioned: loyal to advancing the LU program with no ACC or SEC aspirations. Even Rocco, as good as he is feels a sense of purpose here. His Dad worked here and his brother has worked here for years. Who was that guy who built BYU from a nothing football program into a national champion when they had McMahon at QB? Like it or not, that's the kind of guy that they look for here at LU because the goals here are very high. Had Hankinson succeded, he would have remained as long as we would have had him and had he been successful he would have passed it on to his son, Chad. Rutigliano made it clear that this was his last stop as well.

The point here is that LU has a history of avoiding the stepping stone type guys and until we get one, I'm gonna assume that things will remain the same.

I fully expect Rocco to lead LU into the bowl division and beyond because he is committed to seeing this thing all the way through, much like Greg Schiano a committed Christian who led Rutgers to their first bowl victory in their 100+ yr football history and who recently turned down an offer to return to Miami. We are very fortunate to have a Danny Rocco in the fold.

That being said, Dunton needs a big step forward this year and a major step forward next year in order to stay on. I'm not gonna quit on these guys. It's definetly not over yet and I'm not buying into "this season's over" nonsense.

[fsn32]

it's 7600... there are not 9000 useable seats!!!!!

are there really 1400 missing seats?? I know there are some, but that is a bit high isn't it?? I guess you may know more then me, it just seems a little high...

That number (9000) was before the bleachers in the tunnel and the first row around the court were removed. Also, when the Vines was first built there wasn't as many padded seats as there are now and those take up more space than the blue seats which reduced the number as well.

[paradox]

What if this team goes on a roll and demonstrates real progress? Will any of the haters come clean and back-off or will this fire Dunton charade just go on and on, rearing its ugly head whenever there is a perceived underacheivement?

[SuperJon]

That number (9000) was before the bleachers in the tunnel and the first row around the court were removed.

I wish that row was still there. I hate being as far away from the court as we are.

[Hold My Own]

That number (9000) was before the bleachers in the tunnel and the first row around the court were removed.

I wish that row was still there. I hate being as far away from the court as we are.

I'm pretty sure that it also includes the convo setup (seats on the floor) in fact i'm positive of that

[Purple Haize]

Par - I obviously know the differences between a "players coach" and any other type of coach. Yes losing a coach is emotional but it is not the end of the world. In fact, in coaching circles, being labeled a "player's coach" is sort of a dirty word. I m not sure this is one of your stronger points in the matter. What if they bring in another "player's coach"? Would that solve the dilema?

As for the Fab 5 catching on, they did that relatively quickly. My main point was YES to win consistently it takes time. BUT you can circumvent that, and it has been done on differing levels, by bringing in some good players (or 1 great one) and have immediate success. However, if you do not build on that it becomes like cotton candy. Outstanding at first, than you wonder what happened to it and was it really there

Thanks for clarifing the D1 success. I will respectfully disagree and say that we SHOULD embrace our history, b/c IMO it is something to be proud of. While you may think the NCCAA and NAIA are a joke, that was definetly not the case back when we were successful in them. The 70, 80's and early 90's were the hay day of those divisions. I will agree with you now, that outside NAIA D1 it is lacking.

You actually make a great point for bringing in a "lower tier" coach. Where had Meyer been before LU as a head coach? Dunton? Those are the two coaches that have brought NCAA D1 "success" to the university. Niether had big time head coaching jobs before. RD won in Maine and Alaska at the high school level. Meyer, I believe was an assistant at Purdue in the Joe Berry Carrol days. (Yes he was the ORIGINAL Aircraft Carrier, thank you Billy Packer). The one "high profile" coach we brought in, Mel, didn't do so well. So why NOT look at the NAIA or DII/III level? There are great coaches there and not all of them would look to "move on". Plus, when they got here think of how GRATEFUL they would be with our facilities, budget etc. Whereas if you bring in a "Big Time" coach they might compare it to where they have been and say "yuck". But that is my opinion

On a side note, I believe it was the FSU assistant and he was offered and accepted the job. Until he got home..............

[bigsmooth]

fsn is correct on the 9,000 number. after those tunnel seats were removed, it reduced the capacity, not to mention the numerous seats in the "graveyard" that are missing....(i will continue my crusade!!HMO i need a vines update!!!) now as far as the thread...paradox, you are a big supporter, but some of your points are making me dizzy. i support dunton, but if the season continues in this fashion, then maybe a change should be made, and if the players have quit, shame on them, and shame on the staff for losing them.

[TIMSCAR20]

Nobody has quit on anyone I can assure you of that and I have not been around the group since the Longwood game. I can tell you that if last years team didn't quit then I know this team, with all that is still before them and as much talent as they have will not quit. Everyone will continue to work at it and I believe they will start to gel as a team. I plan on spending some time with the team the next couple of days as I am working in Lynchburg (thanks HMO for the use of the facilities...wait that sounds like he let me use the restroom), so I will get to watch practice, yes we are "talkin' bout' PRACTICE."

[grm]

I heard something on the radio the other day that caught my attention, in reference to our loss streak on the road. We might wonder if it should be that difficult to win on the road...

The commentator was mentioning that Duke's first real road game (not on a neutral floor) was
(and he gave the date). He then mentioned how smart it was for coach K to schedule that way
(do coaches control schedules?) because he had so many young players.

This caught my attention thusly:

Duke has concerns with young players?
Duke is concerned about early road games hurting confidence?

It just made me think that if DUKE is concerned, then such issues must be ligitimate concerns at the highest levels - and that it "is" hard to win on the road.

No excuses - just observations and thoughts

[paradox]

[quote="Purple Haize"]
by bringing in some good players (or 1 great one) and have immediate success.

I think that it's time to move beyond these fab five fantasies and to also stop drawing annoying correlations to the NAIA level.

What happened with Steve Fishcer and the fab five is definetely in the top five unlikely events in college basketball history. It was the direct opposite of what normally happens.

A group of new players instantly jelling into immediate success or surrounding a bunch of marginal players around a supposed great one as yet another formula for instant success, sounds highly unlikely to me.

Our guys will fight through this and be better for it. In my view, things are already begining to take shape as Holland accrued 22 minutes at the point gaurd position the other night.

I have a question for some of you guys who downloaded the game on Saturday. Did Holland see most of his minutes in the second half or was his time spread out?

[grm]

Adding to my last post, it looks like Duke's 1st real road game on the opponent's home court is this Wednesday.

[A.G.]

Again, one of my points is, "Who's fault is it we have a new mix?" Every 2-3 years should not be a rebuilding year.

[Purple Haize]

group of new players instantly jelling into immediate success or surrounding a bunch of marginal players around a supposed great one as yet another formula for instant success, sounds highly unlikely to me.

It isn't as unlikely as you seem to think. Happens all the time. I was giving you the Fab Five reference since everyone knows about them. I also said that while it can bring short term success, it is not a recipe for long term stability.

And what is your beef with the NAIA? Could you be annoyed because I am right?

[A.G.]

One good coach can ALSO take mediocre talent and mold it as well. Look at what Marshall did his first year at Wintrhop--primarily with Kinney's players.

[paradox]

group of new players instantly jelling into immediate success or surrounding a bunch of marginal players around a supposed great one as yet another formula for instant success, sounds highly unlikely to me.

It isn't as unlikely as you seem to think. Happens all the time. I was giving you the Fab Five reference since everyone knows about them. I also said that while it can bring short term success, it is not a recipe for long term stability.

And what is your beef with the NAIA? Could you be annoyed because I am right?

I'm annoyed because I don't think anyone really cares about the NAIA and any discussion about it is completely irrelevant to a conversation about legitimate competition at the D-1 level. It sounds as though you have a thing with the NAIA, not me. You seem to be forcing it into every conversation for some bizarre reason that I'm sure only you would know the answer to.

The idea that a new team with so many new components normally harmonizes overnight with very little effort, no sacrifice, and therefore nothing to learn from failure is even more bizarre than yet another conversation about the NAIA or at least as equally as wierd as the guy who posted that former Lady Flame Rick Reeves should take this team over.

The fab five deal would be a good reference if that sort of thing were common, but clearly that is not the case, and it doesn't happen all the time as you claim. That whole fab five scenario may pan out once or perhaps twice in a lifetime, if ever again on that level.

If you don't get it with the team development thing, then we'll just have to agree to move on.

[kel varson]

I was thinking Ohio St. had 5 freshmen, but only 4 play extensive minutes and I think 3 start. Still pretty good.

UNC is actually younger than OSU, and also starts 3 freshmen. Only 2 seniors and no juniors who play more than 10 mpg. No player plays more than 28 mpg. This team will be fresh come March. No pun intended.

[Purple Haize]

PARADOX I understand about team development. In fact I am giving you real life examples of new players coming in and changing things overnite. (And Kel chipped in some too) Since you mention the Rick Reeves era, there is another closer to home example. The "Twins" and Elaine were freshman when they won the first of about 6 gazillion Big South titles. They seemed to do pretty well as new players.

Still don't know where your hatred comes from with NAIA. I was saying that there are some great coaches in that Association. Are you saying there are not? And yes I do think some of them would make great D1 coaches. (Can I cite Bob Huggins?) I am not comparing the talent level, just some coaching compotence.

Still waiting for your examples btw.

[paradox]

I was thinking Ohio St. had 5 freshmen, but only 4 play extensive minutes and I think 3 start. Still pretty good.

UNC is actually younger than OSU, and also starts 3 freshmen. Only 2 seniors and no juniors who play more than 10 mpg. No player plays more than 28 mpg. This team will be fresh come March. No pun intended.

UNC is loaded with talent this year as always and they have been going 10 deep so far, and they are actually rotating four freshman into the ten man mix.

OSU has a mix of four freshman starters that includes their highly touted center Greg Odgen.

Both of these majors will only get better as the season progresses, but will does either team start five freshman and did either program lose their head coach during the season as Michigan did with the fab five?

No one ever said freshman don't and can't come in and start and contribute right away, but these majors are not rebuilding, they are reloading as is the case every year with these major programs and their continual flow of McDonald's All Americans.

I really don't see how any of this relates to us because the talent disparity is so vast.

LU won the Big South back in '04 and brought in three new guys, two freshman and one walk-on: Blair, Dees, and Woodson. As the season progressed, the team got better, and eventually peaked in the Big South tourney. Our overall record at this stage of the season was very similiar to where we are now. Our home wins against St. Fran and ECU was better than any non-conference achievment form '04, with the exception of the Cancious win. And did I mention that we started out 1-3 on the road in conference play

[paradox]

PARADOX I understand about team development. In fact I am giving you real life examples of new players coming in and changing things overnite. (And Kel chipped in some too) Since you mention the Rick Reeves era, there is another closer to home example. The "Twins" and Elaine were freshman when they won the first of about 6 gazillion Big South titles. They seemed to do pretty well as new players.

Still don't know where your hatred comes from with NAIA. I was saying that there are some great coaches in that Association. Are you saying there are not? And yes I do think some of them would make great D1 coaches. (Can I cite Bob Huggins?) I am not comparing the talent level, just some coaching compotence.

Still waiting for your examples btw.

There is a huge difference between fixing a bad team overnight, which is highly unlikely, and a major program that reloads its arsenal every year.

I love the NAIA, but if you'll allow me to, I just don't care about it nor do I see the relevance of it or anything related to ladies basketball in this conversation.

The '04 Flames are the most appropiate example that I can think of in terms of relevance to our current situation.