[paradox]

No one left at Coastal when Buzz was brought in. You completely neglected that point.

I was not making an abosolute, unequivocal statement about players leaving, but only bringing out the reality that it tends to happen when coaches leave, more often than not.

If the Coastal situation is as you say, would it be the exception or the norm?

I know nothing of your Coastal reference. When was the coaching change made and what key players stayed on?

[Purple Haize]

I vote PARADOX as the most apropos name on the board. I am dizzy by his changing points.

Here is a couple I can nail down:
Coach is a fighter. So is Evander Holyfield, but do we REALLY wanna see him keep fighting?
RD can't leave because he will take everyone with him.
RD has a proven winning track record

But here is where it gets interesting. He states that ALL teams who have a coaching change go through a "down period", but cites no examples. It seemed to work out well for Gonzaga, UCLA, Butler, Ohio St., Maryland, Texas Tech, Wake Forest, Coastal, Baylor, to name a few. NOW there are programs who have a good coach who take a team very far and when that coach leaves the team goes down. But I think we are NOT in that category. And this is where it gets interesting, PARADOX says we are NOT those other schools, we are LU and those track records don't mean anything. Everyone join in "Things that make you go hmmm"
I have a small smidgen of basketball knowledge and TOTALLY disagree with your assesment on how to win. In basketball you really only need ONE player who can dominate to win games. I could start with Bevo Francis, Peter Maravich and go to sublime with the likes of Harold Arceneaux and Ron Parker. Those players can help you win overnight. Now, to win consistently it does take time.
Finally, has anyone else noticed how EVERY year we are a "young team" and "need time to come together"? I applaud your effort to help out RD's cause, but please, try to back up your statements. It would be a lot more fun

[SuperJon]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about if you don't even know of coaching changes in our own conference.

The coaching change happened before the 05-06 years. What key players stayed? The 2005 Big South Player of the Year in Paeley Pele and the 2005 Big South Freshman of the year in Jack Leasure. I'd consider them pretty good. Not a single player left.

I was not making an abosolute, unequivocal statement about players leaving, but only bringing out the reality that it tends to happen when coaches leave, more often than not.

Bring in a new guy and most of the young talent transfers.

That wasn't an absolute, unequivocal statement about players leaving.

[SuperJon]

That was to paradox, not Haize.

[flameshaw]

pair a sox,

The more you say, the dumber you look and do your cause no favors. You might want to try the volleyball board maybe you know something about that.

[SuperJon]

flameshaw doesn't post much, but when he does, he doesn't hold anything back.

[thepostman]

so, where to start....I think all that could be said has been said really, but also I think that there is some truth from both sides on this issue...I am still in the boat of lets wait til the WHOLE season plays out and go from there, if things continue to go as they are of course you have to look elsewhere, but if things improve and we make it to the conference championship game I can't imagine that Coach D would be let go after that....

Also, though there won't be a mass exodus like paradox seems to think, there is often times players transferring after a coaching change...I don't think all of our young talent will leave, if any...but that is always the risk you take when switching coaches on kids that came to play for a certain guy...I don't think anybody can say that nobody will leave, but at the same time I don't think anybody can say that ALL the young talent would leave...both statements are simply assumptions...

I say we wait out the season, you never know what could happen...I am frustrated with this team and Coach D...and I have always been a Coach D supporter....but I think I will wait until the season is over until I call for the ax...but I do understand why you would feel that way right now, and don't blame anybody for being anti dunton at this point

[paradox]

...

[JDUB]

there is also the possiblity of gaining recruits with the new coach that the old one wouldn't have gotten.
granted there are a few negative things that COULD happen if the coach is fired, but the good would outway the bad.

[paradox]

...

[grm]

I have to log on & say that I appreciate Paradox fighting the good fight. Sure, it's disappointing right now, but the haters pile on unceasingly, so why can't the drinkers fight back with the same intensity? We can't say that Dunton can't win, because he has. We can't say we have a great record, because we don't. The season will tell the story, but I contend that nothing will ever satisfy the haters, based on their continual posts. I honestly think they'll be disappointed if we have a good season. Nothing new is being said - the forum is up and running, and people are using it to passionately state their assessments.
I believe in Coach, I believe in the team, & I believe we will yet have a good season.

[thepostman]

no hater here, just realistic, if things continue to go as they at this moment then really there is no other choice then to go in a new direction, but if things improve then that is a whole other stories...there are haters, and there are lovers and then there is the rest of us that look at things realistically, if things don't change then a change must be made...all you lovers/kool aid drinkers must at least admit that....

[SuperJon]

there is also the possiblity of gaining recruits with the new coach that the old one wouldn't have gotten.

Coach Rocco
Alabama Football
UNC football

[paradox]

..

[SuperJon]

There are new faces with every team every year. They don't take as long as us to gel.

You say LU isn't a coveted job. Why not? Why can't it be? We have a 6000 seat arena and 10,000 students. We have a good deal of money, and resources most schools at our level don't have. I'm sure Spokane, Washington wasn't a place many college coaches would want to go ten years ago but look at em now. Rock Hill wasn't a coveted place to go but if Marshall left, you can guarantee there'd be some people lining up to take over that program to prove they can do it. Coastal wasn't a coveted job yet they still pulled in Buzz. Maybe that was because no one else wanted him, I don't know, but they still pulled in a big-time coach to a school that has a gym that seats 1000. We have the largest student body in the conference, and the 2nd largest arena, why can't we be a coveted job?

[paradox]

there is also the possiblity of gaining recruits with the new coach that the old one wouldn't have gotten.

Coach Rocco
Alabama Football
UNC football

I agree. We wouln't have won the Big South without Gabe Martin and he transferred in with RD. Hankinson brought in a kid named Carl Williams who had good all around game and came close to leading the nation in steals the year that he played at LU.

You make a valid point, but I'm still not ready to write Dunton off just yet.

[A.G.]

On the contrary, I'm really not out to attack anyone; I'm just trying to offer a different perspective and add a little insight into some things.

I really only had two points, but after all of the ad hominem attacks, I added two more:

1. New teams take time to develope and jell as a team; and we can still get this thing done this season; there is ample time.

2. Any success in the history of LU basketball is connected with Dunton being here as the head coach or top assistant. He is not a loser and given the context I think that he's been more than respectable.

3. Dunton is a player's coach and if he gets terminated it may be a bigger set-back than some of you are prepared to deal with.

4. The LU basketball job is not as coveted as some of you seem to imagine. Guys like Dunton and Meyer may be as good as it gets here at this juncture. Granted, if we move up to a bigger conference, then we could draw some higher profile interest. At that point, all bets are off and we take the big time guy, if available. I'm a little hesitant to jump on the wagon to let this guy go and potentially inherit the next Hankinson.

I'm anxious to see exactly where we are at with this team at the end of the season. I'm optimistic enough to still beleive in these guys.

Some of my views on Dunton and Meyer are purely subjective, however, new faces needing time to take shape as a team is just a reality of the game, and if you can't comprehend that, then you just don't get it with the game at all. That being said, if this team does not come together as a team at some point this season, then the responsibility will fall squarely on the shoulders of the head coach, and depending upon a complete evaluation, a coaching change may be in order .

Your final sentance is something I think most everyone can agree with, and I am glad to see you are not totally closed-minded, but being pretty reasonable with your arguments. I would like to address your points, if I may.

Point #1. Fifth year, after a horrible fourth year. The PROGRAM under Coach Dunton should not need time to gell. Besides, who's fault is it that this is a "new team" as you say?

Point #2. Hard to argue with you there. But even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile. I don't think anyone really considers him to be a loser, except LUzer.

Point #3. A player's coach? It must take a pretty special player's coach to have total player (and staff and support staff) turnover over the past 3 years.

Point #4. Hank should have been given a couple more years. That way he may have been able to fully implement his defensive scheme LU is a D-I job with a decent facility and solid financial backing. Who knows the numbers and quality of coaches that would have applied if the job had not been back-doored four years ago.

[paradox]

...

[thepostman]

We have a 6000 seat arena and 10,000 students. We have the largest student body in the conference, and the 2nd largest arena, why can't we be a coveted job?

9,000 seat arena.....

and who in our conference has a larger arena then ours?? Just curious, because I remember looking around at the schools when I first got to liberty in 2003 seeing if we had the largest and I don't remember seeing a larger one...I could be wrong though

[thepostman]

by the way the Lynchburg area may be somewhat small, but its still large enough to draw more people to sporting events then it does...but the first focus is getting students on board, then comes the community

[Realist]

A couple of things I can tell you that are posted that need to be corrected:

LU has the largest venue, WU has the nicest, and CSU is probably the worst in the nation.

Charlotte has nothing to do with WU attendance other than that there are quite a few WU grads like myself that live there. The attendance is students, grads within driving distance, and the local Rock Hill community. Bob Johnson would love to know how to get Charlotte to like basketball again if anyone has any input though

[paradox]

...

[PAmedic]

my head hurts.

At least we seem to have gotten to the point where people on BOTH sides are being more objective. I appreciate that- we all need to learn to see both sides- and I know we all want the same thing- winning teams at LU

having said that- there was a really interesting point brought up; is LU being LU and located where LU is a help or a hinderance?

I would argue that Carey Green, Coach Tolsma, and Danny Rocco are but 3 examples of why it is NOT impossible to bring in great talent here. I'm not saying easy- but certainly not impossible. Maybe a young up-and-comer who just wants a chance?Maybe a seasoned vet who's looking for a new challenge- and Liberty may just be the place?

This isn't a call for Coach Dunton's head either- I think we need to wait until the end of the season at LEAST. And then you know as well as I do who's gonna pull the trigger- and he doesn't give a rat's patoot what we think

[paradox]

A couple of things I can tell you that are posted that need to be corrected:

LU has the largest venue, WU has the nicest, and CSU is probably the worst in the nation.

Charlotte has nothing to do with WU attendance other than that there are quite a few WU grads like myself that live there. The attendance is students, grads within driving distance, and the local Rock Hill community. Bob Johnson would love to know how to get Charlotte to like basketball again if anyone has any input though

Thanks for the correction.

A run at the sweet sixteen this year and you may strike a chord or two in the Charlotte meto area.

[SuperJon]

We have a 6000 seat arena and 10,000 students. We have the largest student body in the conference, and the 2nd largest arena, why can't we be a coveted job?

9,000 seat arena.....

and who in our conference has a larger arena then ours?? Just curious, because I remember looking around at the schools when I first got to liberty in 2003 seeing if we had the largest and I don't remember seeing a larger one...I could be wrong though

I thought it was 6000. If it's 9000, then we have the biggest arena.