[Sly Fox]

Americans in general love a repentant man. We'll forgive people of just about anything if they'll come clean. Inside the Christian community sadly that isn't always the case. I am very curious to see how this progresses.

[JK37]

He is obviously still quite capable of teaching students, but as of right now, he cannot lead them, nor should he be allowed to, in my opinion. At least not until the hard work of expsoing his heart is done and the feelings that will come from that. Unfortunately, I don't think that is going to happen.

I agree it needs to happen, as a part in a process. But, I disagree with you and believe that it actually will happen, though not right away. I'm thinking maybe not long after the fall semester commences. And if I'm wrong, it will change my perspective drastically. An individual so in-tune with the needs and desires of the current generation of students, who has often referred to their attitude as skeptical, would have to come to terms with the idea that many of them will now turn their skepticism toward him - and rightfully so. If he hopes to continue teaching and impacting lives, he has to come to terms with it.

But if he doesn't, then he shouldn't be teaching anymore.

[WinterIsComing]

Just want to say that it is my hope and desire that he will as well JK.

[jmdickens]

well this is my last post on the issue...

1. upon academic issues with Liberty and Caner, i feel his retainment will hurt Liberty's seminary numbers in the long run. I feel true apologists seeking seminary will dismiss Liberty because its ties to a braggadocios liar who used his "testimony" to establish himself in all christian circles. His popularity because of his ability to draw people to God is the reason for his success. But, that ability to draw people is tied to his fake Islamic upbringing. He claimed to be the christian authority to Islam, and his own slip-ups showed it was all a lie (that is an academic issue, regardless whether the seminary officially has courses in the subject). The integrity of this professor has been compromised. He should be monitored by his boss in all of his classes at the very least for the first year. That might seem extreme to some of you, but think about all other fields of work. you are watched when you screw up.

2. The ministry of the word of God. I believe God uses all people. But, lying for the Kingdom is not the way to do it. That is a belief that the word of God needs a lie to help the cause. Is God not enough to draw people? Since he is being retained, is LU going to sponsor him as a speaker at events across the country? We all know lying is taught about in scripture.

He who speaks truth tells what is right, but a false witness, deceit (Prov. 12:17)
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who deal faithfully are His delight (Prov. 12:22)
A trustworthy witness will not lie, but a false witness utters lies (Prov. 14:5)
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who tells lies will perish (Prov. 19:9)
Truthful lips will be established forever, but a lying tongue is only for a moment (Prov. 12:19)

I feel that we as christians are supposed to look for truth. The truth has come out, and it will set Caner free. But from Caner's denial or refusal to acknowledge his sins, he is hurting the Kingdom of God. As Christians we are to help our brothers in Christ. But helping people with their addiction to sin, just like every other type of addiction can only be helped when those addicted want to help themselves.

But, even if Liberty is retaining Caner we must remember that Liberty is not the ultimate authority on Caner. The authority to keep his job teaching is an authority given to liberty, however his role as a teacher of the gospel is dependent on the ultimate authority of God. I say we should release him because I feel his actions merit a termination. But that is only because my own sin cost me the greatest thing in the world, a wife. I helped drive her a away with my pride. But, my relationship with God has blossomed because of the loss. I will continue to pray for Ergun Caner, but i will share with him myself my disappointment with what he has done.

[JK37]

Well said, dickens, and finally a form argument from your side that shows the kind of thought I can respect. I knew you had it in you. Well done!

For now, I suppose we agree to disagree, but I guess that keeps me a dumba--, right?

[jenkins]

I just don't see how it can be said until we know for sure exactly 100% what the investigation found. Most of this stuff is still heresay, will the university make some of the findings public?? I'm guessing there is no way? Moon and Caner cannot be compared because legality and morality are two different things. Moon violated both, Caner has done nothing illegal. There's no question God can use the man, whether he's wanted here or not. I personally hope he stays on and this makes a stronger bond eventually. Quite frankly, as far as the numbers go, I wouldn't be that upset if some of the legalistic, 5 pt calvinists that want to argue over everythign don't come to the seminary because of this. One thing that i think is mistaken about Caner is arrogance. I dont find it arrogance, yet masculinity. This culture tries to destroy any man that exercises masculinity and Caner acts like a man rather than a Wuss. I for one like this in a pastor rather than the Joel Osteen approach. Finally, the Dr. argument seems incredibly weak IMHO. Obviously that is not all of the problem. Has there been any other articles written other than the N&A article. I heard that tehre was one in the Washington Post but haven't tracked it down yet?

[phoenix]

The major problem I have with the "factual statements that are self-contradicting" is that some of them came from the pulpit of a church. Caner made false statements from the pulpit -- until he has publicly repented of that, I have a real problem with him serving in ministry. After he does that, I have no problem with him continuing in ministry, as long as the repentance was sincere -- something we have to assume until proven otherwise.

[PastorZack]

Let's move on and speculate who will be the next Dean of the Seminary????

Don't kick the dead horse...let repentance and forgiveness take hold and be thankful for your own forgiveness.

I pray for the school and seminary that I love and pray that WE will have another Man of God lead others and train up leaders of His church.

God Bless LU and LBTS and praise God for saving Ergun Caner. For that fact, praise God he saved me!!!

[LUconn]

My prediction: Ben Gutierrez. Right now I think he's a Dean or something. He's a really smart dude, a great teacher, a great preacher and already making a boatload of cash at LU (his salary was posted on the top 5 list).

[Hold My Own]

I thought that was already announced?

[LUconn]

They might as well go ahead and announce it since I proclaim it to be the future.

[Cider Jim]

I thought that was already announced?

HMO, if you have insider knowledge, please share it!

[rueful]

My prediction: Ben Gutierrez. Right now I think he's a Dean or something. He's a really smart dude, a great teacher, a great preacher and already making a boatload of cash at LU (his salary was posted on the top 5 list).

I thought the same thing on saturday when I was told about Caner.

But my wife and I were talking about this last night and she made a good point, that in our 3 years of going to campus church on wednesday nights and the several classes I had with Caner, I dont remember him saying he was raised in Turkey or trained as a jihadist or anything like that. I remember him saying He was born in Turkey, and that he grew up muslim, and that his dad had a hairy chest and gold necklaces and liked to disco, but I dont remember him saying blatantly that he was a hardcore muslim or jihadist or anything like that. If someones mind jumped to conclusion when they heard him say he was born in Turkey and grew up muslim, than thats that persons fault. And I understand I wasnt there at the church the first time he made his public appearance and all that jazz, im just simply speaking for the last four years (unless in the last year, while i wasnt at campus church, all he did was talk about growing up a jihadist, then forget everything I said)

[flamesfilmguy]

My prediction: Ben Gutierrez. Right now I think he's a Dean or something. He's a really smart dude, a great teacher, a great preacher and already making a boatload of cash at LU (his salary was posted on the top 5 list).

I thought the same thing on saturday when I was told about Caner.

But my wife and I were talking about this last night and she made a good point, that in our 3 years of going to campus church on wednesday nights and the several classes I had with Caner, I dont remember him saying he was raised in Turkey or trained as a jihadist or anything like that. I remember him saying He was born in Turkey, and that he grew up muslim, and that his dad had a hairy chest and gold necklaces and liked to disco, but I dont remember him saying blatantly that he was a hardcore muslim or jihadist or anything like that. If someones mind jumped to conclusion when they heard him say he was born in Turkey and grew up muslim, than thats that persons fault. And I understand I wasnt there at the church the first time he made his public appearance and all that jazz, im just simply speaking for the last four years (unless in the last year, while i wasnt at campus church, all he did was talk about growing up a jihadist, then forget everything I said)

That goes for me too. i don't ever remember him talking about that. except for saying he was raised a muslim. but maybe the website said something different. i don't know. i just can't ever remember a time where it was blatantly stated he was in turkey till his teens or whatever is being said.

[phoenix]

That goes for me too. i don't ever remember him talking about that. except for saying he was raised a muslim. but maybe the website said something different. i don't know. i just can't ever remember a time where it was blatantly stated he was in turkey till his teens or whatever is being said.

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010 ... c-jax.html
Should be audio/video of the sermon in question on that site. IIRC they have a link to the full sermon audio in another post on that blog.

[SuperJon]

Dr. Dan Mitchell is interim dean.

[rueful]

That goes for me too. i don't ever remember him talking about that. except for saying he was raised a muslim. but maybe the website said something different. i don't know. i just can't ever remember a time where it was blatantly stated he was in turkey till his teens or whatever is being said.

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010 ... c-jax.html
Should be audio/video of the sermon in question on that site. IIRC they have a link to the full sermon audio in another post on that blog.

k but what were saying is he never said that at Liberty, but ok

[mrmacphisto]

My prediction: Ben Gutierrez.

IMO, Gutierrez is a great guy and totally deserves it.

[BJWilliams]

I would totally be behind Dr Gutierrez being named the dean of the seminary...he is an amazing man of God, loved by students, and someone who could really take the seminary to the next level

[From the class of 09]

Maybe I missed this already but doesn’t it seem odd that Caner has never made a public apology? As I know we’ve mentioned we don’t know everything that took place in the investigation but it is obvious that he lied at least once. It’s been quoted that he did apologize to the trustee’s doing the investigation however Caner being who he is, it seems he also needs to address the public as he was a very public figure at LU. Maybe they are waiting till the fall but if that’s the case it just seems to be dragging everything out. I also don’t understand why LU is not taking any questions or interviews on this either. While I understand that this is an unattractive topic for LU it will continue to be a distraction until it is addressed in more detail from the school (Jerry Jr.) and Caner.

[TDDance234]

I would totally be behind Dr Gutierrez being named the dean of the seminary...he is an amazing man of God, loved by students, and someone who could really take the seminary to the next level

What is this next level? Isn't that what Caner was supposed to do?

[LUconn]

Step 1: Promote Gutierrez
Step 2: ?????
Step 3: Profit

[BJWilliams]

Maybe I missed this already but doesn’t it seem odd that Caner has never made a public apology? As I know we’ve mentioned we don’t know everything that took place in the investigation but it is obvious that he lied at least once. It’s been quoted that he did apologize to the trustee’s doing the investigation however Caner being who he is, it seems he also needs to address the public as he was a very public figure at LU. Maybe they are waiting till the fall but if that’s the case it just seems to be dragging everything out. I also don’t understand why LU is not taking any questions or interviews on this either. While I understand that this is an unattractive topic for LU it will continue to be a distraction until it is addressed in more detail from the school (Jerry Jr.) and Caner.

Well even if Caner was to make a public apology, there arent any students around (being the summer and all) so Id expect that if one were to come about it wouldnt be until after the students return to campus. Im sure that any sort of public statement will wait until then because the people most affected will be around to hear it by that point.

[From the class of 09]

Well even if Caner was to make a public apology, there arent any students around (being the summer and all) so Id expect that if one were to come about it wouldnt be until after the students return to campus. Im sure that any sort of public statement will wait until then because the people most affected will be around to hear it by that point.

If Caner at least released a public apology it forces everybody to move on (students do have access to the internet and I’m sure it would be covered). Also, the LU family is a lot bigger than the 11k or so students on campus during the school year as donors, parents, TRBC member, and alumnus all have vested interest in the school and its actions to varying degrees.

If Caner doesn’t wish to make a public apology, then I don’t feel expecting a statement from LU (Jerry Jr.) addressing the situation in more detail fashion then “factual statements that are self-contradictory” is out of line.

I understand the idea about waiting till the fall but it seems to just drag the problem over an extended period of time. Silence from both LU and Caner seems unnatural for two entities that have never shied away from the public. The sooner it can be addressed in full the sooner everyone moves on.

Also, why is the lawyer talk needed? “factual statements that are self-contradictory” call it a lie if that’s what it is.

[JK37]

In Dr. Caner's defense, I find this piece interesting...

http://www.normangeisler.net/indefenseofcaner.html