[flamesfilmguy]

There is no way ODU or App is moving up anytime soon. that being said GA state and South Alabama are. very soon. i'd look for an FBS conference to split off of the big east and C-usa. The Big 10 are recruiting Rutgers which would leave a spot open for a team to move into the big east. look for south alabama to move into the Sun belt. and Ga state to possibly move to Big east. other than that I got nothin.

[LUconn]

The Big 10 are recruiting Rutgers

Que? Do you mean Syracuse? Or Notre Dame?


Anyway, the ideal conference for LU is one that does not include a goofy layout that includes football schools and the other schools. There's a natural separation that leads a constant feeling like any successful team is going to be poached from another one. The ideal is obviously a new lower tier FBS conference with potential. 9 teams. No championship game. Round Robin scheduling. Decent sized geographical footprint.

Let's say:

LU
JMU
App St.
GSU
South Alabama
ODU
FIU
FAU
Some other NC or SC school that I can't think of. Charlotte maybe if they started a football team?

That would cover recruiting from Virginia to South Florida. You could really swap out the florida schools for some other florida schools. They don't matter. Any school in that state has potential.


The whole VACON (conference doesn't have any double "n"s kids) idea would be the most entertaining conference and certainly would produce awesome rivalries and atmospheres, but I don't think any one school could get enough of a foothold to compete on the national scene. They'd constantly be destroying each other on the recruiting scene and fan bases would probably be smaller.

[flamesfilmguy]

The Big 10 are recruiting Rutgers

Que? Do you mean Syracuse? Or Notre Dame?


Anyway, the ideal conference for LU is one that does not include a goofy layout that includes football schools and the other schools. There's a natural separation that leads a constant feeling like any successful team is going to be poached from another one. The ideal is obviously a new lower tier FBS conference with potential. 9 teams. No championship game. Round Robin scheduling. Decent sized geographical footprint.

Let's say:

LU
JMU
App St.
GSU
South Alabama
ODU
FIU
FAU
Some other NC or SC school that I can't think of. Charlotte maybe if they started a football team?

That would cover recruiting from Virginia to South Florida. You could really swap out the florida schools for some other florida schools. They don't matter. Any school in that state has potential.


The whole VACON (conference doesn't have any double "n"s kids) idea would be the most entertaining conference and certainly would produce awesome rivalries and atmospheres, but I don't think any one school could get enough of a foothold to compete on the national scene. They'd constantly be destroying each other on the recruiting scene and fan bases would probably be smaller.

Yes I meant Rutgers.its been in the news a few times this year. and as far as south Alabama goes SAU is going straight into the Sun belt as soon as the Moratorium is lifted and they pay their 2-3 years of penance in FCS. its been set and the SBC is expecting them in 2012 i believe.

[JK37]

totally against the SoCon. thats not a move up. At all.

You're wrong.

Football: SoCon > Big South
Men's Basketball: SoCon > Big South
Women's Basketball: SoCon > Big South
Baseball: eh, I'll give the BSC that one.

[Cider Jim]

Thanks for having my back, JK37; Medic is too far north in Yankee land to know much about the Southern Conference.

[phoenix]

Knocked this out in Google Earth. The blue hexagons are the SoCon. The dark red pins are the CAA. Liberty is the red pin. Geographically, we fit better in the CAA than the SoCon, regardless of the competition.

Personally, I look for a drastic restructuring that's more geographic. As teams try to cut travel costs, it will make financial sense to try to limit travel as much as possible. Just noticed this:

Again, it's strictly geographic, but there's a 13-team "conference" right there. (the hexagons in that one are MEAC schools, except for Georgetown).

[LUconn]

nicely done. I really think we need to be paired with FBS minded schools though.

[Stevev]

As long as we can align ourselves with James Madision, Richmond, W & M, George Mason, VCU, and ODU that would be okay with me. Throw in Delaware, Villanova, and Hofstra would help too. When we are ready to make the big jump I think that Conference USA would be the best fit assuming we can achieve the same rate of growth that we have been experiencing.

[LUconn]

Think outside the box. CUSA is a logistical disaster. If we move up, it has to be to a conference with East coast teams. Preferably mid-atlantic or southern. If that takes a new conference than so be it.

[JK37]

A few thoughts:

First, so many of you are banking on a shift based on lesser travel costs. That's a marginal motivator.

Second, some of you big picture guys are suggesting large-scale changes w/ many steps. The reality is that each step greatly alters the circumstances of each successive step. (But I guess to recognize this would be to ignore the hypothetical nature of this thread.)

Third, for now, the CAA's Virginia schools will do everything in their power to keep out Liberty (Presidents have great influence over AD's in these decisions.), or to avoid any affiliation with the school - for various reasons, some of which have been mentioned (such as recruiting). And for now, such schools are just too powerful.

Fourth, this just in: the SoCon is still better than the Big South.

[JK37]

Most schools don't have the recruiting footprint that we do. The rely much more heavily on in-state kids. When the same schools from the same conference are all going after the same kids, it would get pretty tough.

Super, at the DIA level, isn't that what UNC, Duke, Wake, & State, have to deal with every year in NC?

As SJ said, its 4 schools, not 8. But those schools also rely less on their home state than the VA schools mentioned, because of their national recognition and, subsequently, their recruiting reach.

Analogous to the state of Virginia would be UVA and VT.

[LUconn]

First, so many of you are banking on a shift based on lesser travel costs. That's a marginal motivator.

I agree that travel costs are not going to be a foundational reason for conference change. However it is a pretty big deal in terms of the end result to an extent. We don't necessarily have to be in a conference with only VA and NC teams, but if we wind up in a conference with a school(s) somewhere in the midwest or further I think it's a sign that you were desperate to find a seat when the music stopped.

[JK37]

I'm going with the VAA idea on this one, but make Longwood the 12th team for all sports, and maybe have a Towson, Deleware or Villanova as an associate 9th for football.

For an FBS Conference:
Marshall
East Carolina
LU
JMU
ODU
Georgia State
Army
Navy
Delaware

Marshall and GA State might be a little further than some would like, but if I remember reading correctly GSU wanted to go FBS at some point as well.

I like your initial idea in theory. But the thig that halts it quickly is money.

Teams move-up in conference realignment because they are chasing one thing: money. The big money is derived from revenue sharing of TV contracts. In your FBS conference, who is going to be the big fan base/TV attraction???

Army, Navy, and to a lesser extent ECU.

*crickets, crickets*

And that's why TV networks will have no desire to contract w/ such a conference, and it won't happen. (Plus, ECU & Navy would consider such a move to be downward.)

[JK37]

First, so many of you are banking on a shift based on lesser travel costs. That's a marginal motivator.

I agree that travel costs are not going to be a foundational reason for conference change. However it is a pretty big deal in terms of the end result to an extent. We don't necessarily have to be in a conference with only VA and NC teams, but if we wind up in a conference with a school(s) somewhere in the midwest or further I think it's a sign that you were desperate to find a seat when the music stopped.

You're exactly right. (And, I like the musical chairs analogy - very clever!)

Had I expounded, I would have said that travel costs is to conference realignment what facilities are to recruiting: they don't win the argument for you, but they can lose it.

In recruiting, no matter what a kid says publicly, facilities are a positive factor in his/her decision less than 2% of the time. In other words, kids don't sign with schools BECAUSE OF the facilities.

Similarly, schools don't choose a conference BECAUSE OF lesser travel costs. They might only refuse an alignment for that reason.

[JK37]

BIG SOUTH CONFERENCE
Jacksonville, Savannah State & Georgia Southern (should in in the same conference)
Samford
Chattanooga
Citadel & VMI (a little out of the way, but I like the "VMI / Citadel" rivalry idea) If not, substitute Presby for them.
Charleston Southern (should be w/ Citadel)
Wofford & Furman (these two should be in the same conference)

SOUTHERN CONFERNECE
Appalachian State & Western Carolina
Campbell, Davidson & Elon
Charlotte & Gardner-Webb
Coastal Carolina & Presbyterian
Liberty

Big South gets College of Charleston, UNC Asheville & Winthrop in basketball
Southern gets Radford, High Point, and Greensboro.

The Southern Conference improves because it gets Coastal Carolina, Liberty & Gardner-Webb in football.
The Big South gets Wofford, Furman, & Winthrop in basketball. Everyone wins.

In your alignment, the SoCon also gains PC & CSU in football. All of this at the expense of GSU, The Citadel, UTC, Samford, Furman, & Wofford.

What you're basically suggesting is that KK gives the SoCon office a call, and he proposes a trade: Coastal, Liberty, G-W, PC, CSU, and VMI - for UTC, GSU, Samford, The Citadel, Furman, and Wofford.

I've spent time on all 11 of these campuses. The comparison (especially to PC & CSU) is...well, there isn't one.

Not only would I give credit to KK for having waaaay bigger cajones than any of us realized, but Iamarino would FALL OUT OF HIS CHAIR LAUGHING!

You're off you're rocker, L4L!

You can't just consider geography in these things.

[Sly Fox]

First off, ECU wouldn't consider a CUSA to regional league a step down. It would be a lateral move for them. They are intent on finding a way into the Big East but there has been little reason to believe that will happen. CUSA is destined to become a Texas-Louisiana (& possibly USM) league. Marshall & ECU will be moving somewhere and will be happy to do so. In their case, league travel costs are a huge deal.

Army wouldn't likely be interested in joining a Mid-Atlantic regional league. The PL suits them just fine as long as they have freedom in football scheduling.

As for the SoCon being this big step up from the Big South, you guys are kidding yourself. They are a slight step up in most sports at best. Frankly there just isn't much advantage in being there. They have consistently thumbed their noses at LU for the past quarter century and frankly I think most LU fans are simply over them.

And ODU has made no bones about there interest in going FBS from the moment they announced they were firing their football program back up after decades of dormancy. And as mentioned before, Appy has never totally dismissed the idea of stepping up. They have issues with funding in the university system. But nothing that would stop them from moving if the right opportunity arose.

[JK37]

First off, ECU wouldn't consider a CUSA to regional league a step down. It would be a lateral move for them. They are intent on finding a way into the Big East but there has been little reason to believe that will happen. CUSA is destined to become a Texas-Louisiana (& possibly USM) league. Marshall & ECU will be moving somewhere and will be happy to do so. In their case, league travel costs are a huge deal.

The rubuttal is in your post. They are intent on the Big East (which will take them when either Rutgers or Syracuse moves to the Big 10). There would have to be a big money reason for ECU to move to a regional conference, and they themselves do not attract a big enough tv contract to make the move. That's why they want in the BE! This will be all about money, and football's revenue gains far outweigh T&F's travel costs.

As for the SoCon being this big step up from the Big South, you guys are kidding yourself. They are a slight step up in most sports at best. Frankly there just isn't much advantage in being there. They have consistently thumbed their noses at LU for the past quarter century and frankly I think most LU fans are simply over them.

Truth be told, football is all that matters, but since you asked. To compare team-by-team, top-to-bottom in Football, Men's Basketball, Women's Basketball, Men's Soccer, Women's Soccer, and Volleyball, the SoCon is better. (I've performed this very exercise before.) I never said the gap was egregious (though in some sports, it absolutely is). And, I still threw the BSC a bone: baseball.

[PAmedic]

totally against the SoCon. thats not a move up. At all.

You're wrong.

Football: SoCon > Big South
Men's Basketball: SoCon > Big South
Women's Basketball: SoCon > Big South
Baseball: eh, I'll give the BSC that one.

until this horrendous season, I'd have said that MBB was rapidly catching the SoCon, making it 50/50. I don't know much @ WBB and would defer to you on that one.

having said all that- our stated goal has been FBS for a while now. All the trouble to get into the SoCon would not be worth the aggrevation for what is arguably a lateral move, more or less: we're not looking for a "somewhat better" FCS league.

[PAmedic]

As for the SoCon being this big step up from the Big South, you guys are kidding yourself. They are a slight step up in most sports at best. Frankly there just isn't much advantage in being there. They have consistently thumbed their noses at LU for the past quarter century and frankly I think most LU fans are simply over them.

oh lordy- I'm in agreement with the Texan

(Pigs flying somewhere)

JK, all respect for ya- this is gonna be a "agree to disagree" thing as you're a SoCon fan (understandably) and some of the rest of us have no time for that league.

[JK37]

totally against the SoCon. thats not a move up. At all.

You're wrong.

Football: SoCon > Big South
Men's Basketball: SoCon > Big South
Women's Basketball: SoCon > Big South
Baseball: eh, I'll give the BSC that one.

until this horrendous season, I'd have said that MBB was rapidly catching the SoCon, making it 50/50. I don't know much @ WBB and would defer to you on that one.

having said all that- our stated goal has been FBS for a while now. All the trouble to get into the SoCon would not be worth the aggrevation for what is arguably a lateral move, more or less: we're not looking for a "somewhat better" FCS league.

So, you would advocate a move directly from the Big South to FBS? Do you even think that's possible?

Someone should do a study of the biggest such "jumps" in the past...

[PAmedic]

Yes. and yes.

I don't disagree with you that its a BHAG but thats the way some people think down there, if you recall

[Sly Fox]

So, you would advocate a move directly from the Big South to FBS? Do you even think that's possible?

Someone should do a study of the biggest such "jumps" in the past...

Given the proper circumstances, I would absolutely support such a jump. There isn't a great deal of history because there aren't similar circumstances anywhere else in the country other than the East Coast. Since DI was split into divisions, there hasn't been comparable situations for the North, West, Southwest or Deep South. Plenty of Florida schools have made the leap with mixed results.

And let's be honest, we haven't built our infrastructure in the past 3-4 years to be a better I-AA. You don't need stadium expansion plans to 60k if you are looking to move to the SoCon. We have an ultimate vision for our university that exceeds most other private schools around us. You'll notice we are the only FCS private even considering the move along with a slew of publics like Texas State, UTSA and Montana (if the Mountain West comes calling). The realignment will be a limited time for opportunity and if we miss this round it may be another 10-12 years before the opportunity arrives again.

[Cider Jim]

So it looks like our hypothetical involves 2 options, both involving football:

1. Do we stay IAA and find a stronger existing conference (Southern, Colonial, etc.)?
2. So we make the big jump up to IA and find an existing conference or join a new one forming?

(Or, do we combine 1 & 2 as part of our 5-10 year plan?)

PS--I've not seen any love for the Big South being the "ideal conference."

[Sly Fox]

That's a fair summary. Although I think it should be noted that there is no existing I-A league that makes sense for us right now. So realistically we are primarily focused on a new I-A conference. But keep in mind that we really would need to partner with an existing Division I conference of some sort to keep our non-football sports in an auto bid situation. My thoughts are that we should find one of these Wrestling/LAX/Hockey leagues that is willing to work with us to become an all sports league. A start-up DI league would be tough to pull off unless it were a football-only conference and that would steal some of the appeal away from the regional aspect of the league.

[Schfourteenteen]

Big South Projections

Football

Catawba
Charleston Southern
Liberty
Newberry
Presbyterian
Savannah State

Plus the other Sports.

Campbell
High Point
Longwood
UNC Asheville
Radford
Winthrop

Winthrop, Gardner Webb, and Coastal Carolina will merge with former MEAC members like SC State as well as successfull Gulf Coast teams to create a Carolina League.

After Fordham leaves for the CAA, the Patriot League picks up VMI.

The Big South picks us the successful Savanah State, Longwood and two up and coming programs. In order to maintain the auto bid, Campbell will play in the Big South Conference for two years (without scholarship) until Catawba and Newberry are fully D I programs. Of course that only gives 5 teams for the time being, but KK will say we'll be good.