[01LUGrad]

When logging on tonight, I figured this thread would have gotten the bump treatment from a Phillies phan.
Nice pick-up for you guys.

That clearly leaves the Phils and the Dodgers as the top 2 in the NL. The Central is going to go down to the wire. My guess is that the wild card comes from that division, but you never know. The remaining decent parts of the Pirates just went to the Giants, so maybe they make a run.

I was feeling really good about not being sucked in to the Cubs season until about 2 weeks ago when ARam came back. Now they are playing really well and I get to have my hopes dashed again at the end of the season or beginning of the post-season.

[rueful]

01, im the same. Up until a few weeks ago I had been to a couple of games when I was home, but hadnt really followed much other than checking the score of the games and the standings. Then Aramis came back and ive been hooked to WGN since. Freaking Cardinals. I still cant believe we gave up derosa this off season, and can not believe hes now a cardinal. Dumbest decision.

[Liberty4Life]

Something that I think is completely despicable... eight of the Pirates' nine starters from last year's opening day have been dealt to other teams.

[Chris Lang]

Come 2011, you'll like the moves. If the Pirates continued with the same nucleus, they'd continue to win 70 games a year. This is a franchise that hasn't had a winning season since I was in high school.

[Sly Fox]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

[TDDance234]

Something that I think is completely despicable... eight of the Pirates' nine starters from last year's opening day have been dealt to other teams.

The Braves, Mariners, Red Sox, and Giants are thankful, at least.

[Liberty4Life]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

Jason Bay, Brian Giles, Kris Benson, Xavier Nady, Oliver Perez (et cetera) nod in agreement.

The problem is, the Pirates stink, so they don't have money to spend. Although they get high draft picks, they can't select the marquee players and wind up wasting their selections on players who they can sign (Bryan Bullington, Jon Van Benschoten nod in agreement).

Then the mediocre players get shipped off for mediocre prospects (Andy LaRoche, Craig Hansen agree). And the cycle repeats itself.

It is encouraging to note that they hired a smart GM late in '07, and none of the players he dealt were really "his guys". Let's see if he can make the Pirates relevant again.

Otherwise... hey, Steelers season is right around the corner.

[Liberty4Life]

And while we've been speaking about the NL Central...

The Astros were down and out and the beginning of the year, I think at one point 10 games under .500. Now, they're only 3.5 games back... Sure, they don't have the pitching to make it down the stretch, but at least they're making things interesting.

[Chris Lang]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

Understandable. And when it comes to some of the past trades (Aramis Ramirez/Kenny Lofton deal comes to mind), they were obviously lopsided. None of the players they traded are elite players. You could argue that only Bay and McLouth were even very good. LaRoche was a bust. Sanchez was a three-time All-Star only because the Pirates had to have a representative. Wilson didn't do anything particularly well. Morgan is a dime-a-dozen outfielder. McCutchen will be the twice the player in the long run that McLouth is ... more speed, better contact rate, better OBP, better defensive outfielder ... and he's a lot younger.

They had to make these moves because the farm system was an absolute joke for years. Look what happened when they tried to move a bunch of Hillcats from last year up to Altoona? Save for Moskos and Lincoln, the rest of the group was on the whole, a bust.

What the Pirates have now is a group of high-ceiling guys in the minors, especially in Double-A and Single-A. That hasn't been the case in a long time. And teams like Tampa and Milwaukee have proven that's how you win on a modest budget. That group, as presently constituted, had no chance of ever competing for a winning season, much less a playoff berth. They're not just making blind salary dumps. That they managed to get that much in return for Jack Wilson blows my mind. Seattle has a tendency to dump prospects ... see the trade with Baltimore for Bedard, in which the O's straight fleeced the Ms.

Clearly, I know way too much about the Pirates' system.

[Chris Lang]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

Jason Bay, Brian Giles, Kris Benson, Xavier Nady, Oliver Perez (et cetera) nod in agreement.

The problem is, the Pirates stink, so they don't have money to spend. Although they get high draft picks, they can't select the marquee players and wind up wasting their selections on players who they can sign (Bryan Bullington, Jon Van Benschoten nod in agreement).

Then the mediocre players get shipped off for mediocre prospects (Andy LaRoche, Craig Hansen agree). And the cycle repeats itself.

It is encouraging to note that they hired a smart GM late in '07, and none of the players he dealt were really "his guys". Let's see if he can make the Pirates relevant again.

Otherwise... hey, Steelers season is right around the corner.

I'll give you Bay, though Andy LaRoche is still considered a high-ceiling guy. Bryan Morris continues to struggle in Lynchburg. But let's look at the other guys:

-- Nady was in the midst of a career year last year when traded. Now he's hurt and may never be the same after a second Tommy John. Before last year, he'd never hit more than 20 homers in a season. So-so corner outfielder with average power and no speed.

-- Benson has been injured his entire career and has once had an ERA lower than 4.00.

-- Giles was traded when he was 32 and was starting to go into decline. He had one fairly good year for San Diego after that.

-- Oliver Perez was 2-10 with a 6.63 ERA when Pittsburgh traded him, and after he left he had one good season and one OK season with the Mets. He's still somewhat young (27) so there's a chance he can turn it around, but he walks way too many people (led the NL in the category in '08) and is injury prone.

[Rocketfan]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

Understandable. And when it comes to some of the past trades (Aramis Ramirez/Kenny Lofton deal comes to mind), they were obviously lopsided. None of the players they traded are elite players. You could argue that only Bay and McLouth were even very good. LaRoche was a bust. Sanchez was a three-time All-Star only because the Pirates had to have a representative. Wilson didn't do anything particularly well. Morgan is a dime-a-dozen outfielder. McCutchen will be the twice the player in the long run that McLouth is ... more speed, better contact rate, better OBP, better defensive outfielder ... and he's a lot younger.

They had to make these moves because the farm system was an absolute joke for years. Look what happened when they tried to move a bunch of Hillcats from last year up to Altoona? Save for Moskos and Lincoln, the rest of the group was on the whole, a bust.

What the Pirates have now is a group of high-ceiling guys in the minors, especially in Double-A and Single-A. That hasn't been the case in a long time. And teams like Tampa and Milwaukee have proven that's how you win on a modest budget. That group, as presently constituted, had no chance of ever competing for a winning season, much less a playoff berth. They're not just making blind salary dumps. That they managed to get that much in return for Jack Wilson blows my mind. Seattle has a tendency to dump prospects ... see the trade with Baltimore for Bedard, in which the O's straight fleeced the Ms.

Clearly, I know way too much about the Pirates' system.

Question Chris - or maybe opinion - how many of these new guys or current guys will see a ML roster too soon though becuase of all the youth in the system?

[01LUGrad]

01, im the same. Up until a few weeks ago I had been to a couple of games when I was home, but hadnt really followed much other than checking the score of the games and the standings. Then Aramis came back and ive been hooked to WGN since. Freaking Cardinals. I still cant believe we gave up derosa this off season, and can not believe hes now a cardinal. Dumbest decision.

I was on the line with God trying to pull some strings when it looked as if the Cubs might just get DeRo back at the beginning of the month. Then the Fartinals got him. I have to change the channel when he is on because I can't stand the sight of him in red.

[Hold My Own]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

Understandable. And when it comes to some of the past trades (Aramis Ramirez/Kenny Lofton deal comes to mind), they were obviously lopsided. None of the players they traded are elite players. You could argue that only Bay and McLouth were even very good. LaRoche was a bust. Sanchez was a three-time All-Star only because the Pirates had to have a representative. Wilson didn't do anything particularly well. Morgan is a dime-a-dozen outfielder. McCutchen will be the twice the player in the long run that McLouth is ... more speed, better contact rate, better OBP, better defensive outfielder ... and he's a lot younger.

They had to make these moves because the farm system was an absolute joke for years. Look what happened when they tried to move a bunch of Hillcats from last year up to Altoona? Save for Moskos and Lincoln, the rest of the group was on the whole, a bust.

What the Pirates have now is a group of high-ceiling guys in the minors, especially in Double-A and Single-A. That hasn't been the case in a long time. And teams like Tampa and Milwaukee have proven that's how you win on a modest budget. That group, as presently constituted, had no chance of ever competing for a winning season, much less a playoff berth. They're not just making blind salary dumps. That they managed to get that much in return for Jack Wilson blows my mind. Seattle has a tendency to dump prospects ... see the trade with Baltimore for Bedard, in which the O's straight fleeced the Ms.

Clearly, I know way too much about the Pirates' system.

Question Chris - or maybe opinion - how many of these new guys or current guys will see a ML roster too soon though becuase of all the youth in the system?

Lynchburg is getting a pitcher from the trade....we love it when they do this b/c we'll see the effects...and if we dont then time for a new organization

[Chris Lang]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

Understandable. And when it comes to some of the past trades (Aramis Ramirez/Kenny Lofton deal comes to mind), they were obviously lopsided. None of the players they traded are elite players. You could argue that only Bay and McLouth were even very good. LaRoche was a bust. Sanchez was a three-time All-Star only because the Pirates had to have a representative. Wilson didn't do anything particularly well. Morgan is a dime-a-dozen outfielder. McCutchen will be the twice the player in the long run that McLouth is ... more speed, better contact rate, better OBP, better defensive outfielder ... and he's a lot younger.

They had to make these moves because the farm system was an absolute joke for years. Look what happened when they tried to move a bunch of Hillcats from last year up to Altoona? Save for Moskos and Lincoln, the rest of the group was on the whole, a bust.

What the Pirates have now is a group of high-ceiling guys in the minors, especially in Double-A and Single-A. That hasn't been the case in a long time. And teams like Tampa and Milwaukee have proven that's how you win on a modest budget. That group, as presently constituted, had no chance of ever competing for a winning season, much less a playoff berth. They're not just making blind salary dumps. That they managed to get that much in return for Jack Wilson blows my mind. Seattle has a tendency to dump prospects ... see the trade with Baltimore for Bedard, in which the O's straight fleeced the Ms.

Clearly, I know way too much about the Pirates' system.

Question Chris - or maybe opinion - how many of these new guys or current guys will see a ML roster too soon though becuase of all the youth in the system?

I could see them rushing Pedro Alvarez a bit ... but once he gets in top shape, he's going to be a monster. He's hitting for power this year and still isn't close to top shape. They may rush Brad Lincoln, but he looks about ready. They still have plenty of placeholder (AAAA guys) in Indy that could fill some spots. Cedeno will be a lighter hitting version of Wilson at short, and they're toying with Delwyn Young at second to see if he can be viable there. The best middle infield prospects are still in High-A ... Chase d'Arnaud and Jordy Mercer. They might have rushed Jim Negrych up had he not had the hematoma issue that ended his season.

[Chris Lang]

Understandable. And when it comes to some of the past trades (Aramis Ramirez/Kenny Lofton deal comes to mind), they were obviously lopsided. None of the players they traded are elite players. You could argue that only Bay and McLouth were even very good. LaRoche was a bust. Sanchez was a three-time All-Star only because the Pirates had to have a representative. Wilson didn't do anything particularly well. Morgan is a dime-a-dozen outfielder. McCutchen will be the twice the player in the long run that McLouth is ... more speed, better contact rate, better OBP, better defensive outfielder ... and he's a lot younger.

They had to make these moves because the farm system was an absolute joke for years. Look what happened when they tried to move a bunch of Hillcats from last year up to Altoona? Save for Moskos and Lincoln, the rest of the group was on the whole, a bust.

What the Pirates have now is a group of high-ceiling guys in the minors, especially in Double-A and Single-A. That hasn't been the case in a long time. And teams like Tampa and Milwaukee have proven that's how you win on a modest budget. That group, as presently constituted, had no chance of ever competing for a winning season, much less a playoff berth. They're not just making blind salary dumps. That they managed to get that much in return for Jack Wilson blows my mind. Seattle has a tendency to dump prospects ... see the trade with Baltimore for Bedard, in which the O's straight fleeced the Ms.

Clearly, I know way too much about the Pirates' system.

Question Chris - or maybe opinion - how many of these new guys or current guys will see a ML roster too soon though becuase of all the youth in the system?

Lynchburg is getting a pitcher from the trade....we love it when they do this b/c we'll see the effects...and if we dont then time for a new organization

Yeah, Adcock is coming. I would guess Uviedo heads up to Altoona soon.

[Liberty4Life]

Only problem with that mindset is that the Bucs have been doing the same thing for two decades now. They develop players for other franchises like a AAA+ franchise.

Jason Bay, Brian Giles, Kris Benson, Xavier Nady, Oliver Perez (et cetera) nod in agreement.

The problem is, the Pirates stink, so they don't have money to spend. Although they get high draft picks, they can't select the marquee players and wind up wasting their selections on players who they can sign (Bryan Bullington, Jon Van Benschoten nod in agreement).

Then the mediocre players get shipped off for mediocre prospects (Andy LaRoche, Craig Hansen agree). And the cycle repeats itself.

It is encouraging to note that they hired a smart GM late in '07, and none of the players he dealt were really "his guys". Let's see if he can make the Pirates relevant again.

Otherwise... hey, Steelers season is right around the corner.

I'll give you Bay, though Andy LaRoche is still considered a high-ceiling guy. Bryan Morris continues to struggle in Lynchburg. But let's look at the other guys:

-- Nady was in the midst of a career year last year when traded. Now he's hurt and may never be the same after a second Tommy John. Before last year, he'd never hit more than 20 homers in a season. So-so corner outfielder with average power and no speed.

-- Benson has been injured his entire career and has once had an ERA lower than 4.00.

-- Giles was traded when he was 32 and was starting to go into decline. He had one fairly good year for San Diego after that.

-- Oliver Perez was 2-10 with a 6.63 ERA when Pittsburgh traded him, and after he left he had one good season and one OK season with the Mets. He's still somewhat young (27) so there's a chance he can turn it around, but he walks way too many people (led the NL in the category in '08) and is injury prone.

I'm not sure we're on the same page here. The point I was trying to make was that Pittsburgh trades its players (who are not impact players, because Pittsburgh does not have great players) for prospects. And these prospects never really pan out, or never make a huge impact on the team (look at Tampa Bay, how they've effectively turned a low-payroll into a World Series contender).

So like I said originally... It's a cycle. They'll get a player (like Brian Giles), develop him, trade him for a prospect (like Jason Bay), then develop that guy and swap him.

And as Sly said originally, the post that I agreed with... it's like they're a AAA+ team that develops players for other teams.

[Chris Lang]

OK, I can see your point here ... it's just that the Pirates used to do it in pieces, and now Huntington and the front office seem eager to turn the entire major league roster over and start over, save for some pitching pieces. I think Maholm and Duke will be a good 2-3 combo for years to come, and I don't think they want to trade them. A lot of the same criticism is leveled at Oakland, which seems to be in perpetual trade, develop and trade again mode. I get the feeling from talking to Huntington and Stark, though, that the Pirates' major league roster needed to be completely gutted. Lots of former high draft picks coming in, which is how Tampa built. I'm willing to give this regime a chance, but if they go and trade Maholm at the deadline next year, like you, I'll be skeptical.

[Liberty4Life]

I like the new Pittsburgh GM (I have a soft-spot for the SABR-metric based GM's) so I hope it works out. I just haven't seen any one saying 'this guy the Pirates got for trading away its star player is going to be someone special'.

It'd be one thing if they're getting Jeff Bagwell back for Larry Andersen... I just don't see it (yet). I'm in your boat, though. If you trade guys like Maholm at this time next year, I'll be a little freaky.

[Chris Lang]

Alderson MIGHT be in that discussion down the road. He's really highly regarded. We shall see.

[rueful]

In other news, anyone else remember last september when the Cubs and Stros had to move their series to Milwaukee, and Sly got all upset because if it had been in Houston they would have won? And then the last 4 days the cubs obliterated the astros?

[Chris Lang]

Pirates trade Grabow and Gorzelanny to the Cubs ... Two pitchers in return, one straight to Pittsburgh, the other to AAA. Also, INF Josh Harrison will be coming to Lynchburg.

[Liberty4Life]

Pirates trade Grabow and Gorzelanny to the Cubs ... Two pitchers in return, one straight to Pittsburgh, the other to AAA. Also, INF Josh Harrison will be coming to Lynchburg.

Well... If you're gonna blow up a team, might as well Hiroshima it.

[01LUGrad]

In other news, anyone else remember last september when the Cubs and Stros had to move their series to Milwaukee, and Sly got all upset because if it had been in Houston they would have won? And then the last 4 days the cubs obliterated the astros?

I don't remember that! Wait, was there a no-hitter and a one-hitter in there? Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Maybe Sly can help us out with the details.

In fairness, the Cubs only obliterated the 'stros the last 2 games of this series. Game one was a nail-biter and Houston won game 2.

[Hold My Own]

In all honesty I think the pirates are going about this right...unload unload unload. Start completely over with guys that will go about the game they want them to...b/c they have methods about playing the game that a lot of other organization's dont and a lot of people cant play the way they want them to.


The method is develop them to the point where they are producing right before they hit arbitration and sell high. This is what the marlins have done for years and it works. They have to do this if they wont spend money.


What bothers me is the owner that will take in millions from luxury tax and spend less then he made...great for business awful for fans and fan support and bad for baseball

[Sly Fox]

Sheesh, do we have to relive the Ike chaos once again so Bud can swing a few more bucks toward his daughter?

Yes, the Astros pitching staff is a complete mess. No, they will not be buyers up to the deadline. That's all I have other than I wouldn't rule out the possibility of them still winning a mediocre division despite the Cubs efforts to buy a pennant (Yankees/Bosox West anyone?).