[adam42381]

I think you guys jumped into this argument on either side without really reading what was written.

U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles ruled Friday that the school's review committees did not discriminate against Christians because of religious viewpoints when it denied credit to those taught with certain religious textbooks, but instead made a legitimate claim that the texts failed to teach critical thinking and omitted important science and history topics.

Now, I guess the basic reasoning is solid. If it failed to do those things then it failed to do those things and it makes sense not to receive credit. But who decides? I think it's pretty obvious when you throw around generic and almost insulting terms like (lack of) "critical thinking" when a certain way is presented and or omitted. (lets not even get into what is omitted in CA public schools and yet they can think critically) I would also question how "important" that particular topic (evolution) is if it truly is presented as a theory. Oh wait, it is important because it is the absolute foundation for every other biological thing taught in a public classroom. But it's only presented as a theory, as you all say. With a wink and a nod and a legal disclaimer. It's not like these kids weren't taught the scientific method. Heck they might know it better because they don't assume theories to be law. And lastly, what historical topic is being left out of the Christian curricula? The Revolutionary War? Louis and Clark? Oh wait, I think I know. But it's only presented as a theory, right? A historical theory.

I can't speak on what they are taught now but when I was in Christian school (I graduated in 1999) and used the BJU texts in question there were certainly many things left out of the history texts. There was absolutely no mention of the civil rights movement, holocaust, etc. The Crusades were painted in a 100% positive light. The founding fathers were represented as having Baptist beliefs without mention of anything that didn't fit the Christian school viewpoint (drinking alcohol, sex with slaves, adultery, etc.). All I know is what my experience was under the same curriculum. The views were slanted to only teach the side they wanted to present.

[flamesbball84]

I think you guys jumped into this argument on either side without really reading what was written.

U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles ruled Friday that the school's review committees did not discriminate against Christians because of religious viewpoints when it denied credit to those taught with certain religious textbooks, but instead made a legitimate claim that the texts failed to teach critical thinking and omitted important science and history topics.

Now, I guess the basic reasoning is solid. If it failed to do those things then it failed to do those things and it makes sense not to receive credit. But who decides? I think it's pretty obvious when you throw around generic and almost insulting terms like (lack of) "critical thinking" when a certain way is presented and or omitted. (lets not even get into what is omitted in CA public schools and yet they can think critically) I would also question how "important" that particular topic (evolution) is if it truly is presented as a theory. Oh wait, it is important because it is the absolute foundation for every other biological thing taught in a public classroom. But it's only presented as a theory, as you all say. With a wink and a nod and a legal disclaimer. It's not like these kids weren't taught the scientific method. Heck they might know it better because they don't assume theories to be law. And lastly, what historical topic is being left out of the Christian curricula? The Revolutionary War? Louis and Clark? Oh wait, I think I know. But it's only presented as a theory, right? A historical theory.

I can't speak on what they are taught now but when I was in Christian school (I graduated in 1999) and used the BJU texts in question there were certainly many things left out of the history texts. There was absolutely no mention of the civil rights movement, holocaust, etc. The Crusades were painted in a 100% positive light. The founding fathers were represented as having Baptist beliefs without mention of anything that didn't fit the Christian school viewpoint (drinking alcohol, sex with slaves, adultery, etc.). All I know is what my experience was under the same curriculum. The views were slanted to only teach the side they wanted to present.

that school shouldn't even be able to be accredited (or whatever it's called at the HS level) if that is all true. that is basically the definition of brainwashing.

[adam42381]

I think you guys jumped into this argument on either side without really reading what was written.

Now, I guess the basic reasoning is solid. If it failed to do those things then it failed to do those things and it makes sense not to receive credit. But who decides? I think it's pretty obvious when you throw around generic and almost insulting terms like (lack of) "critical thinking" when a certain way is presented and or omitted. (lets not even get into what is omitted in CA public schools and yet they can think critically) I would also question how "important" that particular topic (evolution) is if it truly is presented as a theory. Oh wait, it is important because it is the absolute foundation for every other biological thing taught in a public classroom. But it's only presented as a theory, as you all say. With a wink and a nod and a legal disclaimer. It's not like these kids weren't taught the scientific method. Heck they might know it better because they don't assume theories to be law. And lastly, what historical topic is being left out of the Christian curricula? The Revolutionary War? Louis and Clark? Oh wait, I think I know. But it's only presented as a theory, right? A historical theory.

I can't speak on what they are taught now but when I was in Christian school (I graduated in 1999) and used the BJU texts in question there were certainly many things left out of the history texts. There was absolutely no mention of the civil rights movement, holocaust, etc. The Crusades were painted in a 100% positive light. The founding fathers were represented as having Baptist beliefs without mention of anything that didn't fit the Christian school viewpoint (drinking alcohol, sex with slaves, adultery, etc.). All I know is what my experience was under the same curriculum. The views were slanted to only teach the side they wanted to present.

that school shouldn't even be able to be accredited (or whatever it's called at the HS level) if that is all true. that is basically the definition of brainwashing.

No doubt about that. I got an inferior education and I'm well aware of that. Brainwashing is a pretty good term for what they tried to achieve. The fact that it was one of the largest Christian schools in the state at the time is even more surprising.

[thepostman]

I am jumping into this thing kind of late...but I went to two different high schools...one in maine and one in Florida...both schools taught evolution as a theory...the books said theory of evolution...i find more people that were taught evolution as a theory then as fact...it is just this thing CHristians have made up in their head.....

now was the "theory" of creationism taught?? no...but at least evolution were always taught and written about in the books used as a theory

[ALUmnus]

...it is just this thing CHristians have made up in their head.....

And this is not just something that you have made up in your head? Yes, those crazy, paranoid Christians.

Sure they say "theory of evolution", that's great. But like LUConn said, they then go on to say "this is how it all happened" and use evolution as the foundation for the rest of your Biology education. They're teaching an entire subject based on a false premise, but that's okay, because they used the word "theory".

[RagingTireFire]

The Crusades were painted in a 100% positive light.

That's because the Crusades were AWESOME!!! Monty Python told me so.

[thepostman]

...it is just this thing CHristians have made up in their head.....

And this is not just something that you have made up in your head? Yes, those crazy, paranoid Christians.

Sure they say "theory of evolution", that's great. But like LUConn said, they then go on to say "this is how it all happened" and use evolution as the foundation for the rest of your Biology education. They're teaching an entire subject based on a false premise, but that's okay, because they used the word "theory".

Christians are paranoid about stuff like this..they expect the world to act as if they are Christians and when they do no act exactly how they feel fit...they are not Christians and therefor you can not expect them to act this way...

with that said..theory was stressed...every time evolution was talked about it was the theory of evolution...if kids want to completely ignore how often the word theory is mentioned then that is their own problem...

I don't agree with the theory...and do wish creationism was talked about as one of the many theories..but to say Christians are not at all paranoid about issues like this is simply comical...

if we would do our job as the church and stop getting angry when non-christians act well...like non-christians then i think this country would be a whole lot better off....

but then again...i must just have this is my head

[RagingTireFire]

I don't agree with the theory...and do wish creationism was talked about as one of the many theories..but to say Christians are not at all paranoid about issues like this is simply comical...

if we would do our job as the church and stop getting angry when non-christians act well...like non-christians then i think this country would be a whole lot better off....

[LUconn]

I don't agree with the theory...and do wish creationism was talked about as one of the many theories..but to say Christians are not at all paranoid about issues like this is simply comical...

if we would do our job as the church and stop getting angry when non-christians act well...like non-christians then i think this country would be a whole lot better off....

Cool. I guess I'll stop getting angry when serial-killers act well... like serial-killers.


You guys keep getting away from the fact that just because evolution isn't being discussed these kids aren't going to be able to get into California public colleges. Which are generally regarded as the best in the country. Why wouldn't you be angry? These are obviously very smart kids who otherwise would have been able to get into these great schools. It's like you think there's some kind of street-cred you get from the secular world when you take a stance against your brothers by default.

[SuperJon]

No, I just think that from an educational standpoint you need to be taught the things that are generally regarded as "normal" subject material. That includes the theory of evolution. Let the kids go to a community college for a year, get out of their bubble, take a biology or earth science class, and then reapply. It's not hard.

[thepostman]

so now we are comparing serial killing to teaching evolution in school...hmmmm i kid....kind of...

i wasn't really responding to the actual article but to some of the things said in this thread about evolution being taught in school. I stated the ways I was taught evolution in 2 very different school districts and how it was talked about as a theory...

I am not trying to get "street cred" with the secular world...but this evolution thing has taken a life of its own in the Christian community as have many issues because of politics. but that is for a whole other discussion.

I can't get you to agree with me, but I can state how I feel about issues like this, and this is exactly how I feel about it....if we as the church would take responsibility for our own short comings then we would be better off as a country and as a whole...and I am part of this same problem...I am not saying I am somehow better...I am just a bad about certain things...but its somthing we as a christian church has failed doing...

that is all i was trying to say...

as far as this goes...I would have to know more about it...what kind of things are these textbooks leaving out? and why? If it is just evolution...then that is pretty ridiculous...but the article said that some history was left out as well...what kind of history and why aren't they being taught the same history?

[jcmanson]

Let the kids go to a community college for a year, get out of their bubble, take a biology or earth science class, and then reapply. It's not hard.

It might not be hard, but it wouldn’t be fair to these kids.

[SuperJon]

Seems perfectly fair to me.

[thepostman]

whats not fair to these kids is the fact that they have parents that shelter them so much that their parents won't even teach them about a theory that a lot of people believe even though if they knew this theory it would better equip them to have discussions with people about evolution vs creationism...that is what is not fair

[jcmanson]

whats not fair to these kids is the fact that they have parents that shelter them so much that their parents won't even teach them about a theory that a lot of people believe even though if they knew this theory it would better equip them to have discussions with people about evolution vs creationism...that is what is not fair

I agree with you, but the parents have the right to "shelter" them in this way if they want.

[adam42381]

I agree with you, but the parents have the right to "shelter" them in this way if they want.

And if the parents choose to do so the state has the right to deny them higher education. What if a parent decided they didn't want their child to learn algebra, should that child still be allowed into college?

[Kolzilla41]

I agree with you, but the parents have the right to "shelter" them in this way if they want.

And if the parents choose to do so the state has the right to deny them higher education. What if a parent decided they didn't want their child to learn algebra, should that child still be allowed into college?

Most Algebra is applied in everyday life. Last time I had to explain the origin of a species was.... oh right , never. You can't fault all Christian parents who would rather have their kid's brainwashed in either the creation they believe in or the state. Where you all live might not teach evolution as a fact but where my cousins live in Colorado, they do. They also teach them how to read an d speak in Spanish than they do in English.

[SuperJon]

I agree with you, but the parents have the right to "shelter" them in this way if they want.

And if the parents choose to do so the state has the right to deny them higher education. What if a parent decided they didn't want their child to learn algebra, should that child still be allowed into college?

Most Algebra is applied in everyday life.

Basic math is used in everyday life but anything past Algebra isn't. I don't sit and figure up the quadratic formula on a daily basis.

I also don't have discussion on authors from the 1700s in England either but I had to learn about them.

[adam42381]

I can definitely say that I apply what I learned in NC History on a daily basis. I'm also thrilled that I have the knowledge of how to dissect a frog in case that ever comes up at work.

[phoenix]

Basic math is used in everyday life but anything past Algebra isn't. I don't sit and figure up the quadratic formula on a daily basis.

I also don't have discussion on authors from the 1700s in England either but I had to learn about them.

You just don't hang out with the right people. Just last night I had a rousing discussion of the merits of Thomas Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbervilles and it's place in the canon of Western literature.

[LUconn]

There are a lot of different issues it seems we're arguing about. And I'm right on all of them. but I'm trying to focus on CA's reasoning.

aren't there organizations that accredit High Schools like they do colleges? I don't really know how that works. If a school is accredited it's not right to just deny credit for college. Isn't California the state that is looking to eliminate home schooling? I think it's pretty obvious that California wants 100% control of education. That's pretty dangerous in my opinion.

[ALUmnus]

Okay, kids, this year we're going to teach you something that we pretty much know is an outright lie and completely false and fraudulant science, but you need to learn it because that's what some people believe. I don't get it, if a Christian parent doesn't bend over and take it, they're sheltering their kids. And now, if you don't bend over and take it, you're not only sheltering you poor socially-inept kids, but now they don't qualify to go to your tax-dollar-funded colleges.

[thepostman]

but the thing is its not just evolution that these text books left out...they left out historical things as well...it doesn't mention those because evolution is what gets Christians all up in a frenzy and it is clearly working...Fox News knows their audience so therefore they word the article in such a way to make it look as if they are hating on Christians....All I want to know is what other things they are leaving out of these books....

[Ed Dantes]

Here's where I'm coming from. Suppose instead of Christianity, this was a Scientology school, and instead of creationism they taught that the origins of life involved an evil Lord named Xenu. Would we say that the Scientologist child got a good education and should be greeted with open arms at institutions of higher learning? I should hope not.


HOWEVER -- every school needs to be certified by some sort of accrediting board. If an accrediting board, which is recognized by the state, gives the thumbs-up to a school, they also do so to its curriculum, and therefore should NOT be persecuted because of its beliefs or teaching methods. So in that sense, and because of that, I'm on the same side as everyone on this board.

[thepostman]

Here's where I'm coming from. Suppose instead of Christianity, this was a Scientology school, and instead of creationism they taught that the origins of life involved an evil Lord named Xenu. Would we say that the Scientologist child got a good education and should be greeted with open arms at institutions of higher learning? I should hope not.
.

I agree with this...you can't do this to one group and not do it to another...but like I have said all along...they also mentioned history being left out...i just wonder what they left out...