[paradox]

Having a 1AA win count towards bowl eligibility would benefit a program like LU if it moved into 1A, more than it would benefit programs such as VT or UVA, under the new rules.


Bottom Line: UVA and VT would still prefer us to a 1AA becuase of the atmosphere and the sell-out potential. It's a win-win.

...

[SuperJon]

Dude, they're going to have a great atmosphere and a sell-out no matter what. Our small contingent of fans that's willing to travel that get a ticket won't help that atmosphere at all. Lane Stadium is one of the best atmospheres in college football regardless of who they're playing.

[paradox]

Dude, they're going to have a great atmosphere and a sell-out no matter what. Our small contingent of fans that's willing to travel that get a ticket won't help that atmosphere at all. Lane Stadium is one of the best atmospheres in college football regardless of who they're playing.

...not against 1AA's... they have an exhibition feel to them ...those games are pedestrian and uninteresting at best.



You seem to have the "hots" for 1AA football, but I seriously doubt that there are but a few LU supporters who share in the infatuation.





It's amusing that you have such a pessimistic response for everything. Although believing that something can happen, will not necessarily make it happen, the possibilities remain and you're still in the game, so to speak. It's a neccessary starting point or action. On the other hand, if LU's administration and supporters had a "can't happen here" attitude, then, I think that we can be fairly certain that it won't happen here


....




....

[paradox]

Why would they want a rivalry with a I-A team in one of the lowest rated conferences when they're in the ACC and already have established rivalries? I'm thinking you're drinking some big time Kool-Aid on this one. We may get a game every 3-4 years with one of em, but we'd have to be I-A for two decades before they came to Lynchburg. VT's fans outnumber Wake and Carolina fans on a general basis (at Wake and Carolina). There's no way they'd come here if they weren't required to, so unless we get in the ACC, there's no way they're coming here.

Simple arithmetic: dollars and cents. It makes the world go 'round.

Again, situations that are finacially feasible and have the potential to be lucrative for both parties, tend to get negotiated. There is real potential there, and when the time is right, it will be thoroughly explored by all parties involved



.....

It can happen and LU will eventually make this move regardless.


I gotta think that we have favorable chances of starting things with UVA, at the very least, especially since they travel all the way to Wyoming and play another out of conference 1A game ON THE ROAD against lowly Middle Tenneessee.


Believe it. It can happen. And like it or not, we are moving in the 1A direction!


.....

[SuperJon]

Dude, they're going to have a great atmosphere and a sell-out no matter what. Our small contingent of fans that's willing to travel that get a ticket won't help that atmosphere at all. Lane Stadium is one of the best atmospheres in college football regardless of who they're playing.

...not against 1AA's... they have an exhibition feel to them ...those games are pedestrian and uninteresting at best.

You seem to have the "hots" for 1AA football, but I seriously doubt that there are but a few LU supporters who share in the infatuation.

It's amusing that you have such a pessimistic response for everything. Although believing that something can happen, will not necessarily make it happen, the possibilities remain and you're still in the game, so to speak. It's a neccessary starting point or action. On the other hand, if LU's administration and supporters had a "can't happen here" attitude, then, I think that we can be fairly certain that it won't happen here
....
....

Lane Stadium and UVA (sorry, don't know the stadium name) are going to be great atmospheres regardless of who they play. People go to those games for cheer VT and UVA, not against whoever they're playing.

As for I-AA football, yes, I like it. I like it a lot. I like that there's a playoff system. You can shoot for a true national champion. It's not like Little League where you reward everybody by giving them a bowl game. You have to earn your recognition. There's a realistic goal to shoot for, unlike the MPC Computers Bowl in Boise, Idaho.

As for me being pessimistic, I'm not. I'm realistic about how this stuff works. I've studied the bowl system and how it works for classes and projects. I've had to read the rules, the regulations, and how things work. I disagree that we should just go I-A to be I-A. I think we need to be the best I-AA school we possibly can and then go from there. If you dress a duck up as something else, it'll still be a duck. The Sun Belt and MAC schools are I-AA schools dressed up as I-A schools, and everyone knows that. Let's not kid ourselves about what we really are: a school that's never made the playoffs, and has never averaged at capacity for a season, and doesn't travel worth a crap. Is that changing? Yes, but it hasn't changed yet.

[Sly Fox]

Trying to catch up on this thread is wearing my eyes out.

Both of you are making solid points IMHO. But you are both also not 100% accurate in regard to how bowl game selections are made.

Nearly all bowls have conference tie-ins and they are then placed in a pecking order for each league. The bowls are then able to select a team from the conference pool that is eligible ... then the next bowl int he order makes their pick. Some league slike the SEC try to force the bowls to take the next highest team in league standings but it doesn't always work that way. The bowls have the right to make choices within certain guidelines in their contracts that provide big fat checks for the schools and the leagues. Once all of the bowl eligible teams from a certain league have been taken, if there remains a bowl or two left they can then pick from any teams that aren't protected from other bowls.

Down here in Houston the bowl we have (that changes names about other year) is low enough in the Big XII & CUSA orders that they usually have at least one pick to try and steal somebody. That's how Rutgers ended up here back in December.

So there are other variables in bowl selection beyond the rigid conference factors. And bowls can take number of fans travelling and success on the field into consideration in their picks.

Confused yet?

[SuperJon]

I know exactly what you mean, but generally speaking, the rule of thumb for most bowls is conference standing. Whether a team played a I-AA or not is so far down the totem pole in things that matter that no one cares.

[paradox]

Truth is, this is not a dreamer versus realist coversation, but rather, an optimist viewpoint versus a pessimistic conception.

In reality, no one really knows exactly what will happen once we make the move. Thus, the affirmative versus the negative debate begins.

Another factor would be that where Sly, myself, and many others would like to see LU in a minor bowl game against a team like TCU, others such as SuperJon would seem to favor the 1AA playoff format and would rather see LU take on Montana or Appalacian State in a sub division title game.

Actually, either would be a nice accomplishment at this juncture, and would be welcomed by all. However, the fact remains, this institution has loftier goals within the master scheme, and we will take that leap into the unknown in the not too distant future. Once we do, there will be no looking back, and as an optimist, I believe that we will fight through all of the challenges and obstacles ahead and eventually find success on the major scene.


...

[Fumblerooskies]

Someone mentioned "lowly Middle Tennessee." Well...
...MTSU was at one time a top-notch I-AA school...who tried to get out of what they really are...and it has been a disaster.

[paradox]

I would agree, they may have made a mistake. Time will tell.

Liberty, on the other hand, has the potential to build a real national fanbase. In addition, LU is in a very favorable geographical location for 1A competition: situated a short hour from UVA and VA Tech, not to mention a whole slew of schools that are within a six hour radius: Tenneessee, Marshall, Wake Forest, Navy and East Carolina to name a few.

I will pose this though, for those old enough to remember: do you recall where you were when LU was playing UNC in the NCAA tournament? There was a real buzz across the nation as LU hung tough for most of the game. The interest level was very high across the nation and there was a real sense that for a moment all conservative Christians who were NCAA basketball fans were also Liberty fans. People that previously wanted nothing to do with LU were on the verge of becoming fans. Imagine if we would have pulled it off. We need to get back to that moment and completely seize it this time; once we do, we'll have our fanbase. I really can't envision something like that for MTSU, the potential support for them is only local and minimal at best.


...

[Sly Fox]

That game is easily the highlight of my LU sports experience. For over an hour the entire nation was asking who this Liberty was and people in my newsroom were actively cheering for the Flames even though they had no connection to the school. It was awesome.

But to be honest, football is a completely different beast.

[paradox]

I would agree, they may have made a mistake. Time will tell.

Liberty, on the other hand, has the potential to build a real national fanbase. In addition, LU is in a very favorable geographical location for 1A competition: situated a short hour from UVA and VA Tech, not to mention a whole slew of schools that are within a six hour radius: Tenneessee, Marshall, Wake Forest, Navy and East Carolina to name a few.

I will pose this though, for those old enough to remember: do you recall where you were when LU was playing UNC in the NCAA tournament? There was a real buzz across the nation as LU hung tough for most of the game. The interest level was very high across the nation and there was a real sense that for a moment all conservative Christians who were NCAA basketball fans were also Liberty fans. People that previously wanted nothing to do with LU were on the verge of becoming fans. Imagine if we would have pulled it off. We need to get back to that moment and completely seize it this time; once we do, we'll have our fanbase. I really can't envision something like that for MTSU, the potential support for them is only local and minimal at best.







....

[paradox]

That game is easily the highlight of my LU sports experience. For over an hour the entire nation was asking who this Liberty was and people in my newsroom were actively cheering for the Flames even though they had no connection to the school. It was awesome.

But to be honest, football is a completely different beast.

True, but if we can get to the national stage, the buzz will reemerge. We're probally gonna need a Jim McMahon type player to carry us over, win a couple of big ones, and then build from there.

[SuperJon]

Yea, since all conservative Christians liked Jerry Falwell and would LOVE to support his school.

[paradox]

Yea, since all conservative Christians liked Jerry Falwell and would LOVE to support his school.

Again, the voice of pessimism speaks.





we can't... we can't.. we can't... we can't... we can't... we can't








.........

[paradox]

Yea, since all conservative Christians liked Jerry Falwell and would LOVE to support his school.

Again, the voice of pessimism speaks.





we can't... we can't.. we can't... we can't... we can't... we can't











.........

In all seriousness, there are far more conservative Christians out there that appreciate Falwell, then there are Jesuits who committed to following Flutie and BC back in the eighties or even Mormans who followed McMahon and BYU.


Perhaps, you should consider a transfer to Samford. From what I understand, they are wholly committed to 1AA only, and there is no Falwell baggage to be emarrassed over Just a nice bunch of non-offensive chic and trendy evangelicals over there, from what I've been told very environmentally conscious again, verrrrrry trendy 8)check 'em out

[SuperJon]

Did I say I was embarrassed over Jerry? No.


You're basing your entire "we'll gain fans" on the fact that Christians will support us, and that's just dumb. My grandpa is a conservative Christian, a preacher even. He didn't like Jerry. Jerry rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and to think otherwise is moronic. Why do you think we're not in the SoCon? Why do you think we're not in the CAA?

I'm not pessimistic about where we're going. We're on our way to becoming a great I-AA football team. To quote another person on this board, "Years of success will be needed to spur local interest. Yeah...LU can be a nitch...but who would give a rat's behind about ND, BYU, etc if they STUNK in football at the I-A level. Being in the middle of UVA and Tech does not help, either, for they will ALWAYS dominate the media around here...and you have to have the media behind you to be successful. In short, why be the ugly step-sister when you can be the successful step brother by accepting "WHAT YOU ARE."

That's not pessimistic. That's realistic about who we are. I don't have some pipe dream and I'm not looking through rose colored glasses as to who we really are. We're a private fundamental Christian school (in the eyes of America) who most people disagree with. Sure, there are some that would like us, but more people than not think the way this school is run is stupid and would rather pull against us than for us. A lot of people don't like us handing out tracts after games. They find out our rules and think we're in 1950. Why do you think people love beating us so much? It's not because we are a power at anything. It's because they love beating down a school that, in their eyes, thinks they're better than everyone else. Quite frankly, some in this thread are the exact reason they think that.

[JDUB]

wow, i can tell there's nothing going on. were debating what might happen if we decide to start talking about moving up in 5-10 or more years. i can't wait for the season to start!

[paradox]

SuperJon:

Again, you are confusing pessimism with realism. You are advocating a worst case scenario on everything, therefore you are a pessimist, son.




Your grandaddy-preacher who hated Jerry has nothing to do with the REALITY that there are literally millions of football fans out there who actually admired Jerry for his courage and convictions. The fact we are hated by some is actually good from a competition standpoint, we'll draw attention from both lovers and haters. Notre Dame actually had more haters than lovers for most of its storied history. It all adds to the mystique.




In reality, LU actually has the potential to surpass the Jesuit fanbase of BC or the Morman fanbase of BYU. Our problem has always been our lower level of play. We need to raise it and then get some national attention. Sometimes, just one player can make a tremendous difference as was the case with Doug Flutie with BC, Jim McMahon with BYU, or even Bernie Kosar with Miami. Each program that ascends has a national moment and often a visable leader who guides them there.


Put LU on a national stage, and in a big game, and a large national fanbase will emerge.



For those who witnessed '94 against #1 UNC, we know it can be done, and we witnessed a fanbase that was on the verge of developing. When I reflect on that team, we were just a player or two away from making it happen. Matt Hildebrand alone provided virtually all of our backcourt scoring and playmaking. And Matt was fantastic. Chris Toomer was a great defender on the perimeter, but after him we had nothing as far as gaurd play goes. Add a player or two from the D-2 era, say a Bailey Alston, an Eric Gordon, or even a Kenny Gunn, and we pull the upset and make a serious run at the final four. Suddenly, our basketball team experiences a "Flutie Effect", if you will.



I've left two items out. One is, football will have to find its own way into the bigtime, as Sly mentioned, and I agree. The other is, within a year or two after '94, this school was on the verge of a financial collapse. Many feel that we would not be headed in the direction that we are headed in today without that low valley and the resulting manifestation of God's miraculous providence in the face of utter despair.




....

[paradox]

SuperJon:

Again, you are confusing pessimism with realism. You are advocating a worst case scenario on everything, therefore you are a pessimist, son.




Your grandaddy-preacher who hated Jerry has nothing to do with the REALITY that there are literally millions of football fans out there who actually admired Jerry for his courage and convictions. The fact we are hated by some is actually good from a competition standpoint, we'll draw attention from both lovers and haters. Notre Dame actually had more haters than lovers for most of its storied history. It all adds to the mystique.




In reality, LU actually has the potential to surpass the Jesuit fanbase of BC or the Morman fanbase of BYU. Our problem has always been our lower level of play. We need to raise it and then get some national attention. Sometimes, just one player can make a tremendous difference as was the case with Doug Flutie with BC, Jim McMahon with BYU, or even Bernie Kosar with Miami. Each program that ascends has a national moment and often a visable leader who guides them there.


Put LU on a national stage, and in a big game, and a large national fanbase will emerge.



For those who witnessed '94 against #1 UNC, we know it can be done, and we witnessed a fanbase that was on the verge of developing. When I reflect on that team, we were just a player or two away from making it happen. Matt Hildebrand alone provided virtually all of our backcourt scoring and playmaking. And Matt was fantastic. Chris Toomer was a great defender on the perimeter, but after him we had nothing as far as gaurd play goes. Add a player or two from the D-2 era, say a Bailey Alston, an Eric Gordon, or even a Kenny Gunn, and we pull the upset and make a serious run at the final four. Suddenly, our basketball team experiences a "Flutie Effect", if you will.



I've left two items out. One is, football will have to find its own way into the bigtime, as Sly mentioned, and I agree. The other is, within a year or two after '94, this school was on the verge of a financial collapse. Many feel that we would not be headed in the direction that we are headed in today without that low valley and the resulting manifestation of God's miraculous providence in the face of utter despair.




....

In response to SuperJon as to why we are not in the CAA or Southern Conference: Notre Dame experienced a similiar kind of ostracism because of their Catholic-Christian commitment. In the end, the ostracism actually made them stronger and even more loyal and committed to the cause. Being ostracised, often goes hand in hand with identifying with Christ in this world. But that doesn't mean that things can't get done. It just means that we'll have to go about it in a different way, and we will.

Of course, once it becomes finacially feasible to schedule the ostracised one, programs and conferences come knocking on your door, no matter who you are and what you believe. It all boils down to dollars and cents at the point. Yes, it's a business.





....

[Sly Fox]

One minor correction, paradox. ND was ostracized for a reputation of cheating more than their Catholic identity. But your point does still have validity. America isn't crazy about Mormonism but BYU has flourished nonetheless.

[Baldspot]

I could be wrong but I think Paradox was referring to ND's predicament back in the 1930's and 40's when it was in vogue to be anti-Catholic. For instance, ND still plays Navy in football due to gratitude regarding the academy's decison to schedule the Fighting Irish back then despite their religious heritage.

[TIMSCAR20]

I could be wrong but I think Paradox was referring to ND's predicament back in the 1930's and 40's when it was in vogue to be anti-Catholic. For instance, ND still plays Navy in football due to gratitude regarding the academy's decison to schedule the Fighting Irish back then despite their religious heritage.

Correct Baldspot. It was actually conventional wisdom that said a Catholic would never get elected president then came John F. Kennedy. Conventional wisdom as late as the early 80's said that Blacks couldn't play QB in the NFL becfause the position was too cerebral and they would just rely on their athletic ability...Wrong again. Conventional wisdom said the same thing about Black college basketball players being athletic and not smart enough to win the national championship. Then came Texas Western in 64.

Also to say VT will always dominate the media SJ is not accurate. That is like Saying Winthrop will always dominate the big south in hoops. I can remember when VT football and WU hoops were equally insignificant to even their students! Duke wasn't always Duke till coach K got there. Things change. The media will go where the story is. If Liberty if fielding a competitive compelling team, then the media will cover us period. I just think it is a bit short sighted to think that everything will always be status quo. I agree with you strongly SJ that we have severe hurdles to climb. I however am in the Dox camp of saying it can and will get done soon and there are a lot of things in place that make it a distinct possibility for Liberty to succeed and build geographic rivalries at the 1A level.

[PAmedic]

well said big SCAR

and I have to stop reading this thread now- I'm running low on Ibuprofin.

[TDDance234]

Conventional wisdom as late as the early 80's said that Blacks couldn't play QB in the NFL becfause the position was too cerebral and they would just rely on their athletic ability...Wrong again.

And along came Doug Williams of the WASHINGTON REDSKINS!

/end thread hijak