[dpkelly87]

oh and btw. i never confused murder with an identity problem. i just see it as an equal sin right up there with hate and pride.

[Sly Fox]

Dude, with all due respect, the whole Soulforce initiative is nothing more than a publicity quest. Pretending it is anything else is disingenuous. We know Mel White and his motives extremely well. To portray the school as the villain in this confrontation is a distraction for the truth. These visits have played out and thankfully even the liberal press now sees through them.

[dpkelly87]

to say that mel white is the representation of what soulforce is is like saying that Abu Ghirab is a representation of the war in Iraq. One bad apple doesn't necessarily spoil the whole bunch, contrary to popular belief. I know that I can't blame Liberty as a school for mistreating my friends and comrades, but at the same time, you can't discredit my friends and comrades for what one of their leaders says or does. besides, isn't the purpose of a campaign to increase public awareness of a subject? if so then of course soulforce is a publicity quest. they are trying to get as much exposure of themselves as possible to spread their message of equal treatment as far as possible. Their sole intention was to increase awareness of unequal treatment. why does everyone on here seem to have a problem with that? do you not believe in treating others equally?

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

dpkelly im not going to quote that massive thing, its already taken up enough space. As others have said, the intentions you claim soulfource has are not its intentions. Look back at older posts and threads. A few years ago I personally communicated with the guy planning the east coast route, his name was Vince C. he was a friend of mine from highschool youthgroup in california and was ashamed to call himself my friend now that he knew I went to the evilest school, Liberty. His reasoning was, on top of hating Doctor Falwell, among other things that homosexuals werent allowed to kiss or show love and on and on and on.

Rather than go into that whole story, you can search for it, its on here. But, the thing is is that LU does not discriminate towards homosexuals. The same rules apply to them that apply to heterosexuals. Yes, im sure alot of people make jokes about gays, but in the end, they are all in jest. Not saying its right, but I highly doubt there are many if any on campus who actually hate homosexuals. The only thing the students hate is when groups come on our campus and tell us the bible we read is false and we need to accept their sins and help them be allowed to participate in these sins easier.

They dont want equality, they have it. No one is performing hate crimes against homosexuals on this campus. They want us to accept their sins. I dont accept my own sin, I dont accept other peoples sin. I still love them, but in the End, God is not going to accept their sin either. The only thing that can be done is repent. Going around protesting for the right to do your sin is just about the exact opposite of repentance.

When you struggle with something, and you know your weak there, you try to be held accountable for that, you try to not do that.

Soulforce is just about the equivalent of a group of guys going around campus trying to get clean access to unblock porn sites because they are still human and they cant control themselves.

[truedrewdawg87]

dpkelly I think it goes against human nature to ask someone or a group of people to treat another person or group that OPENLY goes against something that person or group believes in the same as they would someone who doesn't OPENLY go against those things. I realize the Bible we all so strongly defend and cling to tell us that all sin is the same, and yes I believe homosexuality is a sin. I also realize that we're all sinners and that the Bible tells us to love each other the way Christ loves us. However, the difference is I think most Christians would say that while they are sinners they are daily trying to become more like Christ and trusting in Christ to help them improve on the things in their lives that keep them from being like Christ. Meanwhile, homosexuals embrace a lifestyle that is clearly against God's word and they don't understand why Christians don't accept their lifestyle or why Christians have trouble treating them the same way they do other Christians or even people who aren't saved but who lived fairly normal lives. If I showed up to a family get together at Thanksgiving with an open homosexual I know my family would be polite, kind and loving to that person the same way Christ would call them to be. However, to ask my family or any family that follows God to treat that person 100% normal or even the way you dpkelly think they should be, like they're not homosexual is just unrealistic.
My boss at work is homosexual. I treat him just like any of my friends because to be honest he's not just my boss, but he's my friend also. However, I'm always aware of the fact that he's homosexual and that he and I see things differently. It's just not in my human nature to remove from my mind the fact that he's homosexual.

[dpkelly87]

That's exactly why the bible also calls our human nature our sinful nature. just because it doesn't come naturally doesn't excuse us from our responsibility to be christ-like. passing judgement is reserved for God and God alone and to take God's responsibility into our own hands is a form of blasphemy. our human nature is to do what is wrong, not right.

[phoenix]

dpkelly -- paragraphs are your friends. Big blocks of text with no caps and no paragraph breaks = stuff I won't read. If you can't be bothered to put it in a legible format, I'm not going to kill my old eyes trying to read it.

I'm just sayin' ...

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

That's exactly why the bible also calls our human nature our sinful nature. just because it doesn't come naturally doesn't excuse us from our responsibility to be christ-like. passing judgement is reserved for God and God alone and to take God's responsibility into our own hands is a form of blasphemy. our human nature is to do what is wrong, not right.

not sure what your answering here? You didnt really answer anything.

And your right, its not easy to be Christ-like, but were still called to it. That means more than just how we interact with people, but also with what we do with our sins, for instance homosexuality. You can not call yourself Christ-like(or as they referred to people who were Christ-like in the NT, Christian) and be advocating for people to allow homosexuality.

Matthew, a tax collector, the worst of the worst, everyone hated him. Jesus went up to him and said follow me. He didnt continue being a tax collector, he didnt argue for more rights for tax collectors, he simply followed, and he tried to persuade other tax collectors to follow him, despite what everyone said about them.

[dpkelly87]

first of all, pheonix, i apologize for my atrocious writing style lol. i'm a terrible typist and format has never been high on my list. i will, however, try to do a bit better for you.

as for qkslvrsrfrboy, you make a strong point with the reference to matthew. my only question is, when did matthew become a tax collector? somewhere along the lines, he chose to be one. the opportunity presented itself and he grabbed it. With homosexuality, there isn't always a choice. some people just realize one day that they are attracted to the same sex. it's not always a choice. sometimes it's a confusion and they choose to pursue one side or the other, but it's simply not always the case. Medical science is still scratching its head as to what makes a person homosexual. they have found evidence to support and also to deny a claim that homosexuality is based on our DNA. If it is, in fact part of our genetic make-up, then we cannot condemn others for what they are. Jesus did say that some were to be born eunuchs. If it is possible to be born without a desire to reproduce or be attracted to anyone sexually, is it possible to be born with a sexual attraction to the same sex? we don't kick people with low sex drives out of the church, just the sex drives we don't agree with.

My point is, we can't justly compare a job as a thief or tax collector to a sexual orientation or mental mindset.

As for my statement about human nature, it seemed as though that post justified your standpoint on an argument that human nature does not allow equal treatment towards people different than us. I was merely stating that human nature cannot be an excuse, as our human nature is flawed and sinful.

[truedrewdawg87]

dpkelly so do you REALLY think if you showed up with a convicted felon, murderer, child molester, drug addict, prostitute or whatever to a family Thanksgiving or Christmas get together and this person was OPENLY UNAPOLOGETIC for their actions, that your family would honestly treat that person the EXACT same they would treat you? Because you're asking me as a Christian to look at someone who willingly disobeys Christ and love them and I'm willing to do that, but I'm NOT willing to ignore the fact that they BLATANTLY disobey Christ. And don't tell me I'm judging someone who does something the Bible calls wrong. I'm not the one doing the judging if it's God calling homosexuality wrong. Get your finger pointing right if you're going to place blame.

[dpkelly87]

ive actually been to a family thanksgiving with convicted felons, drug addicts, and prostitutes without even bringing in any visitors. lol. my family is far from perfect. you don't have to ignore the sin. it's a matter of forming a relationship with the sinner so that when you do judge them or point your finger, it's as a brother or a friend, not the pious, nose-in-the-air stereotype we all try to avoid being.

I don't mean to call out anyone here on judging others. If and when i do, please know that i point that finger at myself just as equally and i do it as your brother in christ, not as someone who considers himself better than you. I myself have been convicted of felonies, addicted to drugs, and i've done some more equally stupid things with my life. I know for a personal fact that if people hadn't stepped in and loved me regardless of my sins, loved me through my sins, and, in time, showed me my sins in love, I never would have stopped that lifestyle. But the people who wagged their fingers at me, who told me I was scum or going to hell, who ignored me, or treated me unequally in general, gave me more fuel to my anger, and more reason to continue being selfish and doing what i want. i'm not standing on a soapbox telling you all that you are wrong, i am reading from my autobiography.

Someone obviously loved you enough to take you to church, youth group, camp, whatever and be your friend or mentor. whoever that person was who led you to christ likely loved you when you felt guilty and mortified over your sin. but the moment someone accuses us of wrongdoing, we get defensive and close our ears. THAT is human nature and the saved and unsaved alike both do it.

How many people do you think got to know the Soulforce members before they threw their trash at them from a passing car?

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

Medical science is still scratching its head as to what makes a person homosexual. they have found evidence to support and also to deny a claim that homosexuality is based on our DNA. .

the study that showed homosexuality had to do with DNA was also shown to be manipulated to do so.

Some will be born without the desire, like Paul. So Paul is gay then? Is that what you would have us believe?

I dont think that is what you are saying. But you also said if thats possible then surely someone could be born with a same sex attraction. The problem with that is that you are now looking at the how and not the why, as in the how we serve God, not the why.

Some will be born without the desire, for the purpose of solely focusing on God. How on earth would some being born with a same sex attraction allow them to praise God more or bring more glory to his name? Everything is for his good. That would not be.

[truedrewdawg87]

Don't even start with the homosexuality might not be a choice CRAP. God made us ALL, not some, not a few, not some but not others, but ALL. God made us ALL to bring GLORY to him.
Isaiah 43:7 even tells us "I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth, everyone who is called by My name, and whom I have created for My glory, whom I have formed even whom I have made"
Therefore, it would be impossible for God to make someone predetermined to live a lifestyle counterproductive to bringing glory to Him or in plainer terms, someone that is homoesexual.

[dpkelly87]

again with another good point qkslvrsrfrboy, as for truedrewdawg, i'm not really sure where your hostility is coming from. I don't believe I have singled you out to insult you so I'm not sure why you have taken an interest in being hostile in an otherwise peaceful conversation. It's as I said, medical science has made great strides to come to a standstill on the matter. They have proof for and against genetic homosexuality. As for manipulating the results, I have no knowledge on this area. I do know, from talking to one of my good friends just a moment ago, that there was never a point where he chose to like guys. He just realized he did. He isn't a flamer or even a "Jack" for anyone who is a fan of Will and Grace. He likes football and beer. I'm straight and I don't even like half the "masculine" stuff he does. but he is attracted to other men. It can't be a choice. not clear across the board.

I also never intended to call Paul gay lol. That would definitely turn this conversation into a hostile one, given what i've seen so far. I merely meant that if there was a possibility of a genetic predisposition for no sex drive, and a genetic predisposition for a healthy "straight" sex drive, then there must also be a genetic predisposition for an "in between" sex drive. There are, in fact, gray areas in life. There are oceans between continents. and just because we stand on dry ground doesn't mean there can't be land between us.

I think it is possible for a homosexual to bring glory to God. I'm sure drewdawg won't like to read this, but there are even theories that David and Jonathan were gay. God has always used sinners to carry out his work. The least of us for the most glory, as Jerry Sr. once put it. Samson was a womanizer, Abraham a drunk, Noah quite possibly would have been diagnosed as a lunatic in our day, moses an orphan and outcast, even women, being low in the social castes, were used. why not gays? David obviously proved himself to be vulnerable to lusts of the flesh later in life with bathsheba and even proved himself capable of murder. God created him with his flaws intact and still used him for his glory.

I must say that this conversation is stimulating to say the least. Is everyone here who is responding an on campus student? what is everyone studying?

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

Yes, there are theories that david and jonathon were gay.

But these theories are as reliable as me saying "God was drunk when he created west virginia." There is no basis, there is no fact, its purely off the fact that I dont know anything good from there.

You even proved against your own point. If David was so gay, why did he lust so much after Bathsheba?

The difference between the sinners God uses/used and others is their true desires. David was called a man after God's own heart. What does this mean? It means that he knew he was a sinner, but with all of his being, he desired to do God's will and refrain from sin. Did he still mess up? Yes, but that doesnt mean he felt joy about it. The same goes for the rest in the bible. Same goes for people like Doctor Falwell, Billy Graham, etc.

The thing with Homosexuality is that they know they are sinners, and they continue to do it with little or no remorse. They live very unhealthy lives, full of promiscuity, and they can hardly ever maintain a steady relationship. They for the most part sleep around, usually averaging partners in the double digits. Its not just one sin here, its the heart craving that sin.

There is no set time where one turns gay. You dont just go from being straight to homosexual over night. John Wayne Gacy, Jr. didnt go from being the happy neighberhood clown to pedophiliac serial murderer overnight. Its not one thing that causes someone to turn homosexual. Its a slippery slope, one bad decision leads to more. Once you make a bad decision, its easier to make it the next time.

Same with any other sin. Its why there are so many christian students at Liberty who are no longer virgins, and were when they came to Liberty.

This is why it is essential to stay connected to the vine that is Jesus Christ.

Im a commuter, supposed to be a prayer leader this year but dorms filled up. Studying Pastoral Leadership and Philosophy, graduating soon, Going for PhD in Apologetics and Theology.

[truedrewdawg87]

dpkelly, the difference between the people you've referenced that lived sinful lives and homosexuals is that those people allowed the grace of God to change who they were into who God had called them to be. Homosexuals choose to CONTINUE to live outside of God's will in SPITE of what the Bible says about that lifestyle.

[dpkelly87]

wow so you are the real deal. I was hoping someone on here would be educated, or at least much much much better educated than me on those things.

I don't personally believe David was gay, but I do see a possibility in it I guess. He always could have been bisexual I suppose. David was only one example too. there were still countless others that were not called after "God's own heart" who God used as examples.

I do have to admit, i have a problem with the stereotype that homosexuals are incredibly promiscuous. There are valid reports that give credence to that statement, but it's not true across the board. In fact, there have been studies that show that there is more truth to that statement when it comes to straight people than homosexuals. As we've discussed before, not every study can be taken at face value either, but I do know that my friends are not promiscuous. They haven't slept with double-digits of people. The one guy I know who has been with more than a few people was in steady relationships with them when it happened and there was always infidelity on his partners' behalves. Most of my friends though carry great pride in their monogamous relationships, which would be married relationships if the state would allow it.

even still, when it's all said and done, my argument isn't whether homosexuality is a sin or not. my argument has been and always will be with the christian reaction to it. If they do believe it is a sin than they need to tread lightly, because plowing in to point fingers and judge others is what got us our stereotype in the first place.

Keep in mind, to the world, we aren't followers of Jesus Christ. We aren't even a charitable organization. We are overly pious, self-righteous pigs who are responsible for atrocities like the Crusades where millions of innocents were slaughtered in the name of a holy pilgrimage. Can we really afford to speak simply and bluntly to a world that still holds us accountable for our past?

[dpkelly87]

p.s. not every single one of those examples changed for the better. sampson was killed when the building collapsed. he died a blind man, ragged and beaten. god simply gave him the strength to do one more task. Moses never entered the promised land. Even Saul's existence ended unhappily. God doesn't require us to change our ways, we are to follow his instructions out of reverence and love, not requirement. the bible is a guidebook for how we are to live, but if i truly repent and backslide into my sinful lifestyle, i will still live forever, just not with the full reward that comes from living a holy lifestyle.

[truedrewdawg87]

I question the commitment level of anyone who willingly lives a life in which they KNOW their reward in heaven will be less than others and they're OK with that. Doesn't that abuse the grace and love of God by sinning and KNOWING that He'll forgive us, He'll STILL love us and STILL allow us into heaven? Heaven will be amazing in ways that is above and beyond the imagination of anyone and yet to think that someone would be OK with experiencing more than likely the least amount of that amazing experience possible and being OK with that is mind blowing to me.
To me that's just as much fire insurance as it is salvation.

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

p.s. not every single one of those examples changed for the better. sampson was killed when the building collapsed. he died a blind man, ragged and beaten. god simply gave him the strength to do one more task. Moses never entered the promised land. Even Saul's existence ended unhappily. God doesn't require us to change our ways, we are to follow his instructions out of reverence and love, not requirement. the bible is a guidebook for how we are to live, but if i truly repent and backslide into my sinful lifestyle, i will still live forever, just not with the full reward that comes from living a holy lifestyle.

I was with you until this post, and I have multiple problems with it.

The Bible is a guidebook for how we are to live? The Bible is God's infallible word. Its not a book of suggestions. Its a book of commandments.

If you sin, youll still forever, just not with the full reward that comes from living a holy lifestyle?

First of all, God does not grant more blessings on earth nor in heaven to those who live holier lives than to those who dont. Secondly, No one lives a holy life style. As you have pointed out, the people God uses most were sinners. Paul claims to be the chief of all sinners in 1 timothy 1:15. No one is holy. Our righteous sacrifices are filthy rags in Gods throne room, Isaiah 64.

Nothing we do can save us. God has already saved us. The price has already been paid for our ransom, its our choice to either accept it or deny it.

The problem that alot of christians have is they still live this life of trying to pay their own way into heaven with good deeds. They read the bible, pray daily, go to church, to come off as a good person. They dont know why they worship God, just how they worship God.

This leads to them thinking they are better off than those clearly living in Sin, which leads to the problem you are so frustrated about. You dont just go on message boards and complain, however, you do something about it. I see this problem, and I would like to do something about it, so I pray to be a preacher/author someday, if God wills it and allows me the capabilities to do so. Im doing all within my power to get there, but It will only be by Gods grace and power that I every do that.

Finally, just a great quote by C.S. Lewis that relates to this conversation in the sense of a transformed life.

Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on...But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of --throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there,running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were going to be made into a decent litle cottage; but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it himself.

-C.S. Lewis

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

I question the commitment level of anyone who willingly lives a life in which they KNOW their reward in heaven will be less than others and they're OK with that. Doesn't that abuse the grace and love of God by sinning and KNOWING that He'll forgive us, He'll STILL love us and STILL allow us into heaven? Heaven will be amazing in ways that is above and beyond the imagination of anyone and yet to think that someone would be OK with experiencing more than likely the least amount of that amazing experience possible and being OK with that is mind blowing to me.
To me that's just as much fire insurance as it is salvation.

To further this point, this also leads to alot of people like what dpkelly is frustrated with. So many at this school went to a church where the pastor talked about how horrible hell is going to be, and you dont want to go there. Then gave the offer to accept Christ and go to heaven like mommy and daddy.

Jesus doesnt save you from hell, he gives you heaven, and for nothing you have done.

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

wow so you are the real deal. I was hoping someone on here would be educated, or at least much much much better educated than me on those things.

I don't personally believe David was gay, but I do see a possibility in it I guess. He always could have been bisexual I suppose. David was only one example too. there were still countless others that were not called after "God's own heart" who God used as examples.

I do have to admit, i have a problem with the stereotype that homosexuals are incredibly promiscuous. There are valid reports that give credence to that statement, but it's not true across the board. In fact, there have been studies that show that there is more truth to that statement when it comes to straight people than homosexuals. As we've discussed before, not every study can be taken at face value either, but I do know that my friends are not promiscuous. They haven't slept with double-digits of people. The one guy I know who has been with more than a few people was in steady relationships with them when it happened and there was always infidelity on his partners' behalves. Most of my friends though carry great pride in their monogamous relationships, which would be married relationships if the state would allow it.

even still, when it's all said and done, my argument isn't whether homosexuality is a sin or not. my argument has been and always will be with the christian reaction to it. If they do believe it is a sin than they need to tread lightly, because plowing in to point fingers and judge others is what got us our stereotype in the first place.

Keep in mind, to the world, we aren't followers of Jesus Christ. We aren't even a charitable organization. We are overly pious, self-righteous pigs who are responsible for atrocities like the Crusades where millions of innocents were slaughtered in the name of a holy pilgrimage. Can we really afford to speak simply and bluntly to a world that still holds us accountable for our past?

Sorry Im writing so much. But also consider Romans 1:18-32

Consider that the places where there is so much homosexual promiscuity and aids and diseases and everything bad that is associated with it occurs in the places where it is so welcome, i.e. New York, San Francisco. When we accept their sin and give it the green light, it gets worse.

The wrath of God is not him punishing you for your sins, I.E. giving a homosexul aids. The wrath of God is when he has enough of you trying to be your own God, and lets you do that, because he knows you will only destroy yourself. So far, I'd say thats come true with the homosexual community when you look at things like AIDS.

[dpkelly87]

i'm literally heading out the door while typing this, so i need to make it quick and then i guess i'll try to check for responses tomorrow.

my argument with this thread has never been, and will never be, the justification for being a homosexual and a christian at the same time. i've come to terms with what i believe. that video i mentioned was shown to me, along with literature and other documentaries, and as a result, i've come to believe that homosexuality is not a sin. i'm not asking you to share my belief with me, just a common belief in a loving God who cares for all equally.

my argument with this thread, as should be all genuine christians, was with the first few posts after the article that was posted. the response posted there alone should be enough to make my fellow christians frown. there is nothing but self-righteous indignation for a lifestyle we as straight people know little about written in those lines.

my argument outside of the thread was with what i saw firsthand when soulforce was in Lynchburg. i was disappointed with the response they were given. how dare we, as christians, treat fellow believers that way and turn around and raise our hands in worship as if nothing is wrong.

we are all at fault. maybe not homosexual. maybe not even curious. but still sinners. case and point. look around in convo on monday. look for ipods and phones and books and people talking and doodling. we are all backslidden in one way or another. like someone wrote earlier today, plank and speck my friends. we cannot judge someone for an equal sin as ours, especially when we are doing it out of "duty" or even righteous indignation, rather than love.

in the end, you still catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

i look forward to continuing this conversation tomorrow, until then, happy first of november and goodnight to everyone. --Dan

[truedrewdawg87]

dpkelly, again i go back to what I said much earlier today. For a guy that claims to have a clear conscience about homosexuality you sure are going to great lengths to defend something that if it was really true or worthwhile would in some sense or another defend itself.

[PeterParker]

Peter
Parker

Ha ha. Nice. Don't worry, trix are for kids; my posts are for people who have an attention span longer than their...um, nose.

Edited for tonal icons in order to be absolutely sure that the below grade level readers don't get confused.