[kel varson]

No, a practicing homosexual will not be in heaven. But they can become a Christian. It says in the Bible they won't be heaven. Anyone living a habitual sinful lifestyle without repentence will not be in heaven. See the book of first John.

Medic, the statistic about a higher rate of gays being involved in sex crimes against children is widely circulated. Also, notice the Priesthood doesn't just have a problem with sex crimes against children, they have a homosexual problem. Almost all the priests choose boys to molest.

I will look for a citation for those statistics I was talking about.

Its widely circulated in the Christian church by Christian organizations...its not so much the truth. I do not agree with homosexuality, I think it is a sin, but I think that Christians deal with this issue completely wrong...

Also why can't a practicing gay be a Christian...just last week I told a lie does that mean I'm not a Christian??? Just because you sin doesn't mean you're not a Christian. There is plenty of stuff I do that I know is wrong but justify it to myself...many Christians who are gay do the same thing...they justify it to themselves but they know deep down its wrong....

the point being, you can't say if you engage in this sin you aren't a Christian, only God knows the heart of His people, how about we just treat each other with a little respect, and stop leaning on ultra conservative newspapers with statistics pulled out of their butts to justify hatred which is clearly a sin as well...

First, Scripture doesn't put homosexuality on the same level as other sins. God didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for adultery or lying, and if you think its only Old Testament check out what Paul says in Romans chapter 1:22-32.Sin is sin, but based on statements in Scripture its clear that God has a scale. Secondly, a Christian is not going to practice adultery over and over again. A Christian is not going to practice fornication over and over again. You can't tell me their not a great difference in struggling with lust and actually committing the act. I know Jesus said you've committed adultery in your heart if you've lusted, but at the same time he never said the sin was to the same degree. If that was the case, maybe everyone who lusts after someone else's wife should get a divorce since they've committed adultery. You get my point.

I believe Ted Haggard "could" be Christian, but he would have to truly seek repentence and show some remorse.... like someone stated you can't judge someones heart and I agree with that. But people who continually commite grievous sins show they have not truly repented.

Christians do struggle with homosexual lust. That doesn't give them the right to practice the actual act just as it doesn't give non homosexuals a right to commit fornication (Fornication=all sex outside of marriage).

I John 3:9. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." KJV

New Living: Those who have been born into God's family do not sin, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they have been born of God.

[ATrain]

Kel, everyone has a sin nature...being saved doesn't cure anyone of that nature. Plus, last time I checked, people continually tell lies throughout their lifetime, a lot of our generation-both Christians and non-Christians alike-will continually struggle and fall into porn due to its easy accessibility. Finally, James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." To me, that says a sin is a sin and one is just the same as another in God's eyes...the only differences are the consequences.

[ATrain]

Galations 5:16 "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."
Clearly, being saved isn't enough to stop you from sinning. You gotta be constantly seeking God, reading His Word, praying, etc...a lot of people get saved and then start off strong but then just kinda fall off for whatever reason, living whatever life they want with just "fire insurance"

[PAmedic]

KEL- are you my grandma? I think you are. that explains a lot

I'm gonna jump outta this one- safe to say I could NOT disagree with you version of theology ANY MORE

my feeling is you are selectively interpreting portions of the Bible to suit your preconcieved notions. However, I'd be willing to bet I've done the same about other issues in the past. I will never believe the Lord sits and picks who's sinning MORE than the next person (or in a "worse" manner)

no way.

and I fully respect you and your right to believe how you choose. At least you have an opinion on things. I just COMPLETELY disagree with you.

God bless- Medic OUT !

[SuperJon]

It depends on two things:

Do you believe in once saved, always saved? When you asked for forgiveness did it cover past/present/future or do you have to continually ask for forgiveness?

Does every sin carry the same weight?

[kel varson]

Kel, everyone has a sin nature...being saved doesn't cure anyone of that nature. Plus, last time I checked, people continually tell lies throughout their lifetime, a lot of our generation-both Christians and non-Christians alike-will continually struggle and fall into porn due to its easy accessibility. Finally, James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." To me, that says a sin is a sin and one is just the same as another in God's eyes...the only differences are the consequences.

I agree with most that. Still, it doesn't say there aren't degrees of sin. Most theologians in Liberty's circle believe there are degrees of hell as well...not much difference.

[kel varson]

It depends on two things:

Do you believe in once saved, always saved? When you asked for forgiveness did it cover past/present/future or do you have to continually ask for forgiveness?

Does every sin carry the same weight?

I believe once saved always saved. At the same time I believe Christians should walk into the Spirit. They can fall into sin, but as I said, there are sins and there are sins, and homosexuality--committing the act of sodomy over and over again-- is just not in the same ballpark and I don't see how you can say it is.

[kel varson]

KEL- are you my grandma? I think you are. that explains a lot

I'm gonna jump outta this one- safe to say I could NOT disagree with you version of theology ANY MORE

my feeling is you are selectively interpreting portions of the Bible to suit your preconcieved notions. However, I'd be willing to bet I've done the same about other issues in the past. I will never believe the Lord sits and picks who's sinning MORE than the next person (or in a "worse" manner)

no way.

and I fully respect you and your right to believe how you choose. At least you have an opinion on things. I just COMPLETELY disagree with you.

God bless- Medic OUT !

Just answer me this? Why do you think God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Because they were inhospitable?

[kel varson]

Galations 5:16 "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."
Clearly, being saved isn't enough to stop you from sinning. You gotta be constantly seeking God, reading His Word, praying, etc...a lot of people get saved and then start off strong but then just kinda fall off for whatever reason, living whatever life they want with just "fire insurance"

See Jesus parable on the sower. Those who got fire insurance were probably never saved. "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation. Old things are past away and behold all things are become new."

Not to say Christians can't struggle, they can, but God will punish them. If they aren't being rebuked for their sin and showing now conviction--not a Christian.

[Realist]

Oh boy, interesting stuff you guys believe. Gay people are gay people, they are not out there going, I'm going to be gay, crap, it's a sin, oh well. Gay people are gay, they are born that way and it's who they are. Just like I'm white, straight, and amazingly attractive, Scar is bald and african american, and medic is short (so I've heard), we were made that way.

I know this won't be popular, but I can't stand this way of thinking.

[jmdickens]

hey realist, I am being dead serious here....do not compare race with sexuality

[kel varson]

[quote="Realist"]Oh boy, interesting stuff you guys believe. Gay people are gay people, they are not out there going, I'm going to be gay, crap, it's a sin, oh well. Gay people are gay, they are born that way and it's who they are. Just like I'm white, straight, and amazingly attractive, Scar is bald and african american, and medic is short (so I've heard), we were made that way.

I know this won't be popular, but I can't stand this way of thinking. [/quote

80 percent of this generation probably agrees with you. Its called moral relativism. We live in the age of "tolerance."
It's been well said that "Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society." I couldn't agree more. Everyone today does what is right in their own eyes and doesn't want to be "judged." Don't get me wrong I am all for tolerance. But I'm for the kind of tolerance the Bible speaks of which is a tolerance of people and not all ideas.

I also agree that homosexuals in many cases are born. In fact, I believe we are all born predisposed to certain sins. Homosexuals to homosexuality. But just because stealing makes me feel happy doesn't mean I should steal. You say, while stealing hurts other people. In some cases so does homosexuality. i.e. STD's. Most gays have multiple partners. The real damage they do is to their own soul. "The Bible says he who commits sexual sin sins against his own soul."

[pbow]

Oh boy, interesting stuff you guys believe. Gay people are gay people, they are not out there going, I'm going to be gay, crap, it's a sin, oh well. Gay people are gay, they are born that way and it's who they are. Just like I'm white, straight, and amazingly attractive, Scar is bald and african american, and medic is short (so I've heard), we were made that way.

I know this won't be popular, but I can't stand this way of thinking.

You choose to be gay!!! You do not choose to be white, black, indian or an amazing Lebanese-American mix like myself. Nothing makes me angrier than when a gay person compares there "problems" to the horrendous things black people in our country had to go through for hundreds of years. It's not even remotely close to the same type of struggle.

[thepostman]

Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed simply because of homosexuality...sure that had something to do with it, but it was the pure disobedience and overall sinfulness of the people. It covers much more then just homosexuality, viewing it like that is being very narrow and your interpretation in my opinion...

whatever it is you believe the Christian church today is completely missing the mark on the homosexual issue...it is this hot topic political issue that many people that are leaders focus too much time...and of course some of those leaders live right in this town....do you seriously think Jesus would be talking to a gay person and telling them how much worse there sin is then everybody else?? no way.....but Christians are so homophobic that even the issue of homosexuality is taboo which is why these narrowminded beliefs have stemmed...

like i said in my previous point, i do believe it is a sin...no different then any other sin...we are no longer under the old law....things are different now...

[kel varson]

Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed simply because of homosexuality...sure that had something to do with it, but it was the pure disobedience and overall sinfulness of the people. It covers much more then just homosexuality, viewing it like that is being very narrow and your interpretation in my opinion...

whatever it is you believe the Christian church today is completely missing the mark on the homosexual issue...it is this hot topic political issue that many people that are leaders focus too much time...and of course some of those leaders live right in this town....do you seriously think Jesus would be talking to a gay person and telling them how much worse there sin is then everybody else?? no way.....but Christians are so homophobic that even the issue of homosexuality is taboo which is why these narrowminded beliefs have stemmed...

like i said in my previous point, i do believe it is a sin...no different then any other sin...we are no longer under the old law....things are different now...

No Jesus would not talk to a homosexual in that way. We're talking about lost people remember. Its a different story with Christians. For Christians, different sins will have different consequences. Maybe I used the wrong wording yesterday when I said God has a scale, for sins. Humans certainly have a scale for sins. David faced terrible consequences for his sin with Bathsheba. Others in the Bible payed a terrible price for their sins. Again, we're talking about saved people in this case. You can't continually flaunt the grace of God and live a homosexual lifestyle. I'm not talking about just having a problem with lust, that has its own consequences. We're talking about committing the act. God is not going to treat that the same way. The price for the sin will be greater, if indeed the person was a Christian to begin with.

We're born sinners and until we receive God's grace, regardless of how small the sin is, we will have to pay for our sins.

Another point, do you guys think God can't deliver someone from the bondage o this sin? There are many gays who've been saved and no longer have a problem with this lifestyle.

[Innocent Bystander]

Oh boy, interesting stuff you guys believe. Gay people are gay people, they are not out there going, I'm going to be gay, crap, it's a sin, oh well. Gay people are gay, they are born that way and it's who they are. Just like I'm white, straight, and amazingly attractive, Scar is bald and african american, and medic is short (so I've heard), we were made that way.

I know this won't be popular, but I can't stand this way of thinking.

It is very popular in today's culture to believe that homosexuals are born as homosexuals. The problem with that idea is that it implies that it is somehow encoded into a persons genetics...which means (much like height, hair color, skin color) that it is inherited from previous generations. If that is true, then the number of homosexuals in the world should decline with every generation as they would reproduce at a much lower rate than the general population. The reality is that their numbers seem to be increasing.

So, that said...I don't believe that a person is born homosexual. I believe each person is tempted more by some sins than others. The difference is liars don't want to be known as liars, gossips don't want to be known as gossips, murderers don't want to be known as murderers, thieves don't want to be known as thieves....but more and more, homosexuals want their temptation to be accepted as our of their control and given a pass.

I was particularly dismayed to see Hardaway embrace the "homophobic" label. That word just drives me nuts. A phobia, by definition, is an unreasonable fear of something. Just because I believe that choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle is wrong doesn't mean that I am afraid of homosexuals.

As for the rest of Tim Hardaway's comments....I think we as Christians are called to love homosexuals as we are called to love everyone.

[bigsmooth]

i agree in not comparing homosexuality to race. not relevant at all. i also do not believe that you are born gay. with all of this being said. i do not hate homosexuals. i think as christians we should love everyone, but not like the sin. if tim hardaway is a christian that would be a poor example for a christian to act. it also shows his ignornace for saying "homophobia" is he scared of gays??? i doubt that. i know a few homosexuals, and i am not scared to be around them, nor do i hate them. i only hope and pray that they can change.

[4everfsu]

We are all born sinners, but no one is born a homosexual, it is a choice. God create Adam and then Eve, man and woman for his purpose and plan to reproduce and have offsprings, he didn't create Adam and Bob as that was not his choice. I believe homosexuality is a choice. Now with that said, I believe when a homosexual molests a young boy, then for the young boy it is not the young boy's choice and I hate the pain and suffering that young boy will endure for the rest of his life. So in that case you can say that young boy was not born homosexual if he becomes a homosexual. Can he get out of it easily, that I don't know? Not sure as fortunately I have never been molested by a man.
Could a homosexual get saved and commit that sin again in his lifetime? I believe so, he could slip, would he still be saved. I believe yes.
I guess all you can do is pray for the homosexuals that they will get saved. My 2 cents worth. The difference between homosexuality during my time at LBC was it was a shame in society. Today it is like a badge of honor. When man turns to man for marriage, etc, then he is turning his back on God and the purpose of marriage.

[jcmanson]

I didn't mean to open a can of worms, I knew this debate would happen, but I think it's a good debate. I have really been thinking about this hard the last few months. It seems homosexuality has really been on a rise everywhere around us. I have come across several "Christians" who are gay, and are proud to be gay. I have a hard time believing they are actually a Christian. Yes, I do believe a Christian can have homosexual tendencies, the same way some of us struggle with other sins. I'm not sure if a practicing homosexual can be a Christian. I still need to do more research and decide what I actually think.

As Christians, we definitely need to be prepared to give an answer to those who are not. This is a very hot topic right now, and we must be prepared to answer back not with our beliefs but our Savior's stance.

[RubberMallet]

i think guys (namely tim hardaway) really have to understand that just because a guy is gay he isn't automatically going to try and stuff your muffin....people act as if they walk around like "hmmm what dude can i probe next"....

as far as habitual sin.....um then were all screwed dude....because i just can't, as hard as i may try, stop sinning...

fuzz yeah i beleive that you can be gay and a christian...just like i believe that you can be an alcoholic and be a christian..While i don't believe you can be born "gay" i do believe you can be born predisposed to certain sins.....sexual, homo or hetero, alcoholism, etc etc....my family has a long line of alcoholism in its family....once i started drinking in highschool i realized that holy crap this could be an issue...because i didn't want to stop....i thank God did but good christiam men before me had alcohol related problems....

sin is sin....i think there are different degrees of punishment but i don't think 1 sin is any worse than another....regardless we are not perfect and worthy only of death in God's eyes...

James 2:10-11
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

[Libertine]

i think guys (namely tim hardaway) really have to understand that just because a guy is gay he isn't automatically going to try and stuff your muffin....people act as if they walk around like "hmmm what dude can i probe next"....

[RubberMallet]

i would however like to add before someone goes batshoot insane on this:

"fuzz yeah i beleive that you can be gay and a christian...just like i believe that you can be an alcoholic and be a christian."

if a person has no regard for what they are doing as sin and really don't make much of a conscience effort to stop i question whether they ever really got saved...

good buddy in my church....one day (in highschool) he told me he thought he was gay....he had weird feelings around guys, kind of like when he would also be around girls....i was like, well you need to tell someone....so he told my dad (assoc pastor) and we prayed for him, and my dad got him a few books, .....the guy is happily married....i'm fairly certain he has no hankering for mushroom tattoos any longer

[belcherboy]

i think guys (namely tim hardaway) really have to understand that just because a guy is gay he isn't automatically going to try and stuff your muffin....people act as if they walk around like "hmmm what dude can i probe next"....

I've heard this several times the past few days and I don't think I agree with it. I think it would be like saying, just because you are beautiful model, doesn't mean guys are going to hit on you/gawk at you/make advances at you/etc. Professional athletes, in the vast majority of cases, are the most well sculpted, good looking people in the world. If anyone should worry about getting gawked at/hit on/stared at, especially when half dressed and nude, it should be these guys. IMO most of these athletes probably feel that way. I don't think they are as extreme as Hardaway, but I can guarantee that if they thought a guy was getting their jollies off being near them in times of undress, many would not handle it well at all.

I think a more accurate statement would be that their is a 100% chance that a truly heterosexual guy would not try and stuff your muffin. The problem is that cannot be said about a homosexual and that is probably where most male professional athletes fears are IMO.

[RubberMallet]

how many gay people do you know...

[belcherboy]

how many gay people do you know...

Well wasn't this about gay people coming out? They would be known if they came out.

I used to work in social work and new quite a few gay people. This is a funny story: I was a case worker for a guy and was getting to know him (he was clearly gay) and he began telling me about going to a gay pride parade in Toronto. I was saying how I would like to visit Toronto someday and how cool I heard the city was. He then began saying, "Great! You are totally welcome to come up to the next parade with us. It will be great!" I had to somehow tell him I wasn't gay, I just wanted to visit the city. Very awkward conversation! I've been hit on by a gay guy before as well (in the drive through at a Tim Hortons up here in Detroit). VERY awkward to say the least!!