[LUconn]

man, that dudes avatar is gonna get me fired.

[PAmedic]

oh yeah, forgot to warn you guys about that one...

as well as a few others

[SuperJon]

Same thread going on on AGS. No mention of LU either.


We have the best playing surface and the best football-only facility in Virginia and people don't even mention us. I love it.

[LUconn]

that's because we havent been any good in a long time. And that's what fans look at. Luckily, if it ever comes down to it, those in charge of extending invitations look at success but also facilities, location and commitment as well.

[Eagle Ed]

I see things differently than many do.

First off, I truly believe that Jerry Falwell was clear in his dream for LU football: Division 1-A

#2) Before addressing Division 1-A, we must have a stadium that seats at least the minimum NCAA requirments for such (34-35K? I can not ever remember. I know Duke barely squeeks in.)

#3) Rocco's enthusiasm and skills have re-birthed LU excitement (maybe even better than the Sam Rutagliano years - because the school's enrollment is bigger).

#4) A. L. Williams made Falwell a promise to get our stadium where it needs to be to be Division 1-A ... IF ... the attendance grows and sustains .

#5) All that said ... I think we are a few seasons aways from all of these dreams, BUT, we are on track (maybe for the first time ever) ---
and when the time comes that we enlarge the seating and bring in the spectators -- we are NOT looking at proving ourselves to the likes of I-AA JMU. (no anger, no sarcasm, just facts )

As I spoke out much, much earlier in this thread -- when that time comes, we will be looking at other Division 1-A schools to partner up with. And at that time, I can certainly see us teaming up with Navy, Army, Marshall, perhaps Charlotte, and many of those Divison 1-A schools I mentioned.

To commit to Division 1-A football is a HUGE undertaking ... but rewarding in many, many ways. AND, it was JF's dream. IMHO, Jeff Barber did not come here to stay at Division I-AA. He has the skills (as does Rocco) to get us where Jerry wants us.

Just my opinion... and I'm sticking to it.

[SuperJon]

119 FBS Schools

#119 - Buffalo, moved up in 99
#113 - Louisiana Monroe, moved up in 94
#107 - Arkansas St, moved up in 92
#106 - Idaho, moved up in 97
#85 - Troy, moved up in 02

10 of the bottom 18 schools in FBS are in the MAC or Sun Belt, conferences that a new FBS conference LU would be in would be like.


Yea, instead of being good in FCS, let's go get our heads beat in just to say we're FBS.

[Fumblerooskies]

119 I-A Schools

#119 - Buffalo, moved up in 99
#113 - Louisiana Monroe, moved up in 94
#107 - Arkansas St, moved up in 92
#106 - Idaho, moved up in 97
#85 - Troy, moved up in 02

10 of the bottom 18 schools in I-A are in the MAC or Sun Belt, conferences that a new I-A conference LU would be in would be like.


Yea, instead of being good in I-AA, let's go get our heads beat in just to say we're I-A.

Fixed it for ya, Supe

[Sly Fox]

SJ - You forgot to list Boise State moving up in 1996.

Growing pains are going to happen.

[Cider Jim]

Anybody know what year Marshall moved up? I know when LU played them in Huntington, the Herd was still 1AA--and LU lost 63-3 against Chad Pennington at QB.

[TIMSCAR20]

I think it is extremely short sited to think that we would get destroyed at the 1A level just because we used to be Division 1AA. With that thinking we would never have gone from II to I in hoops. Sure we had several division II players but we also had some division 1 players and a few years later we had a team full of division 1 players and a few years after that we had some special division 1 players that would never have come to Liberty if it were division II. I know Sly has said this before but when we move up we will be able to recruit that caliber of athlete to compete at that level just like Connecticut or Marshall. Even if there were 0 examples of people moving up and winning, I would still say why not us? If we have everything in place, fan base, stadium, facilities, growing academic respect, why not? I agree 100% that Jeff Barber and Danny Rocco are on the same page and are the right people to move us up a level.

[SuperJon]

Normally, most of the time, as a general rule of thumb, on a regular basis, and any other cliche meaning the same thing, it takes at least ten years to even become competitive in I-A after the move. Until we get 25,000 on campus and until we're consistently drawing 20,000 to games, I think this topic shouldn't even be considered.

Scar, I love ya, but the difference between DII and DI basketball (where we are, Big South level) is so much less than the distance between I-A and I-AA it's not even funny. Scholarships, travel, all of that. We're not just talking about taking football and making them travel more. A move to I-A would make every sport on campus travel as least twice as much as they do now.

[Sly Fox]

A move to I-A would make every sport on campus travel as least twice as much as they do now.

That's a pretty big assumption on what our scenario would be at that level. It might actually even be lower. Its all yet to be determined.

[SuperJon]

If JMU, App St, Georgia Southern, and all of these other pipe dream schools you always talk about won't be in a conference with us at the I-AA level, why would they at the I-A level?

[Sly Fox]

For the very reasons you mentioned above about travel costs for non-revenue sports.

And the schools you listed have never been the impediment to us joining either the SoCon or CAA.

[Cider Jim]

Super & Scar, if you look at population base, Lynchburg & Huntington are almost identical, and Marshall only recruited regionally, whereas LU recruits nationally and internationally. If Marshall can make the move to 1A and be in bowl games their first several years, then there is no reason LU can't do that. And Marshall was doing all this with about the same enrollment that LU has now.

[SuperJon]

Yes there is, Dr. Cider.

A) Liberty is a religious school that has strict rules that a lot of high school kids don't want to deal with.
B) Marshall took advantage of a very big largely unknown loophole that allowed them to increase their scholarships while at the I-AA level. When they made the transition to I-A, they already had the scholarships and the players to play I-A football. They didn't go through the growing pains that most schools do. The NCAA changed the rules because of Marshall.

[TIMSCAR20]

What's wrong with growing pains? Plus the fact that you can't tell me that Danny Rocco couldn't field a competitive team with division 1A resources. I don't believe it.

[SuperJon]

I'm not questioning Rocco. I'm just saying there's no use rushing into it which most of these schools did. They weren't at the top of I-AA before moving up. They got all giddy about being a decent I-AA team and thought they could move up, then got their butts beat in on a consistent basis for the next ten years.

[SuperJon]

Marshall did what I'm suggesting: They were good for a decade before they moved up. That success at I-AA transferred to I-A and they've had success (albeit not recently) at the I-A level. Here's how they finished each year before their move up:

1987 - 2nd
1988 - Quarterfinals
1989 - No playoffs
1990 - No playoffs
1991 - 2nd
1992 - 1st
1993 - 2nd
1994 - Semifinals
1995 - 2nd
1996 - 1st

In their first three years as a I-A, in a conference that was in the bottom third of I-A football, they went: 30-3


In retrospect, here is Boise State's last ten years in I-AA:

1986 - DNQ
1987 - DNQ
1988 - First round
1989 - DNQ
1990 - First round
1991 - DNQ
1992 - DNQ
1993 - DNQ
1994 - 2
1995 - DNQ

In their first three years as a I-A, in a conference that was in the bottom third of I-A football, they went: 12-22


Now, Boise State has gotten better in the past 7 years, but you can see that the differences in the "growing pains" of a school who is successful on the I-AA level is significantly less than the growing pains of a team that wasn't successful in I-AA.

Why not get successful on the I-AA level, build your reputation up, and then make a smooth transition?

[NJLibertyboy]

I think this is a legitimate discussion in like 5 years, but I wouldn't expect to make the jump for another 10-15.

We are in a very saturated NCAA football market already. We are nestled square in the middle between VT and UVA. We need to work for the next couple of years on carving out a niche in the community, making people aware that Liberty football is on the move, which means we need to market this team and the players better than we have.

And a lot of it too comes down to money. It costs nearly 3x more to run a Div 1A program. We have to build an alumni base first as well that can provide the money for that.

A lot of these schools got big off of old money or rich alumni. This school hasn't necessarily had time to create rich alumni, the school is too young. For years there in the beginning we just pumped out pastors, and needless to say they don't make all that much.

If we make the jump too early, we wind up like all those other schools listed above and I would rather compete to win on the D1-FCS level than make a jump and lose just to say we got out butts killed by Middle Tennessee. Once we've seen some sustained success their can be a discussion. At this point, I would be ecstatic to see us beat William and Mary.

[Cider Jim]

Marshall took advantage of a very big largely unknown loophole that allowed them to increase their scholarships while at the I-AA level. When they made the transition to I-A, they already had the scholarships and the players to play I-A football...The NCAA changed the rules because of Marshall.

Super, this sounds like a teaching unit from a Sport Management class, but this is news to me. I'd like to read more about this, since it's my alma mater.

We are in a very saturated NCAA football market already. We are nestled square in the middle between VT and UVA.

NJ, isn't Liberty farther away regionally from Tech and UVa than the NC grouping of several 1A schools--UNC, Duke, Wake, & NC State?

[SuperJon]

Marshall took advantage of a very big largely unknown loophole that allowed them to increase their scholarships while at the I-AA level. When they made the transition to I-A, they already had the scholarships and the players to play I-A football...The NCAA changed the rules because of Marshall.

Super, this sounds like a teaching unit from a Sport Management class, but this is news to me. I'd like to read more about this, since it's my alma mater.

That actually wasn't from a class. That was from me spending way too much time on the internet. I'll have to find where I read it and get the specifics.

[Cider Jim]

Thanks, Super: I've love to read a link about all that, if you can find it. I do know that Marshall had its own community college on campus to help get players eligible, but I don't know how widely known that was.

[Sly Fox]

That was widely known in the recruiting circles. Let's just say the Herd had a less than stellar reputation for taking players that seemed to have no chance of attending any other I-A programs. Whether that was fair or not is subjective.

[NJLibertyboy]

See, I had thought about that, however, Raleigh/Durham is a much more populated area. They could sustain such programs. They also have a way larger alumni base and student population, and consistently successful programs. It also took years for those programs to build to where they are today, to find their niche so to speak.

Did I say it couldn't be done? No. What I said was it will take some time, and will require patience. I would rather have it be done right than too early. I would love to see this program go D1-A, but I would rather it take longer and get done right then jump in too soon when we don't have the fan base or money and look like Temple.