[Sly Fox]

Seeing all of the talk about the mess in Kansas City at Jerry Johnston's church brings up a subject that I have had issues with in recent years at churches where I have been a member and otherwise. Why is it that churches now are so secretive about their finances?

Its become much more of an issue in recent years with the growth of megachurches where the budgets have soared. With these multi-million dollar budgets generally under the ultimate authority of one man (who is often considered above rebuke due to his position in the pulpit) it is easy to understand how the situation could be abused.

My assertion has always been that churches should make their books visible to everyone in the church. If there is nothing to hide then why leave the lingering suspicions in the congregation to fester? I realize there is the fear that nothing would ever be accomplished if every Tom, Dick & Harry was questioning every transaction. But some basic financial reports would help keep the staff accountable.

[El Scorcho]

My church does practice an open-books practice of sorts. We can readily see the budget, how much has actually rolled in and then the percentages of how that budget is divided up. Everything is accounted for, so far as I can tell. It's very comforting.

As for Jerry Johnston: His son, Jeremy, lived on my floor at LU for a semester. (That was all he could cut it.) Everything that was said in that article about extravagant spending and a deep-pockets kind of lifestyle was personified in that kid. I didn't know anyone that could stand to be around him, other than the kids who were living off of his dime. I know his sister was here at the same time, but I never met her.

I understand the nitpicking aspect, but I'd rather people leave a church because of disagreements on how money was openly spent rather than because they had no idea where their money was going. That's just not right.

Also, from the Johnston article, I loved this gem:

Indeed, Johnston envisions himself becoming one of America’s foremost religious leaders. “Guess what?” he asked his congregation after rattling off the names of evangelists such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson in a 2005 sermon. “Those men are getting old. Really old."

[Ed Dantes]

Seeing all of the talk about the mess in Kansas City at Jerry Johnston's church brings up a subject that I have had issues with in recent years at churches where I have been a member and otherwise. Why is it that churches now are so secretive about their finances?

Its become much more of an issue in recent years with the growth of megachurches where the budgets have soared. With these multi-million dollar budgets generally under the ultimate authority of one man (who is often considered above rebuke due to his position in the pulpit) it is easy to understand how the situation could be abused.

My assertion has always been that churches should make their books visible to everyone in the church. If there is nothing to hide then why leave the lingering suspicions in the congregation to fester? I realize there is the fear that nothing would ever be accomplished if every Tom, Dick & Harry was questioning every transaction. But some basic financial reports would help keep the staff accountable.

I think it comes down to denomination -- Baptists (usually) will have the budget printed in the bulletin, largely because they view its congregation and the members of its church as... uh... shareholders in the organization. At least to the point where they have a voting voice in in (for lack of better word / explanation). Larger churches view themselves as a corporation unto themselves, and thus don't have to answer to everybody.

My question though is that if the church is non-profit, then its books SHOULD be visible (as required by law), I think. I know that if you look hard enough, you can find Liberty Univ.'s books. I haven't been able to find individual churches, though.

[Libertine]

My assertion has always been that churches should make their books visible to everyone in the church. If there is nothing to hide then why leave the lingering suspicions in the congregation to fester? I realize there is the fear that nothing would ever be accomplished if every Tom, Dick & Harry was questioning every transaction. But some basic financial reports would help keep the staff accountable.

I've sat through enough contentious church business meetings and I really think you have to strike a balance. There should be some basic numbers that should be available to any member of the congregation (gross income, expenses, missions, etc.,). However, there is a great deal of itemized info contained in church books that should be available to the church leadership but does not need to be available to the general congregation. For instance, if your church has a Samaritan Fund, not everyone needs to know exactly to whom that money went. He would also not need to know where every dollar that came in comes from. Some might disagree with this but I'm also of the opinion that John Q. Seatwarmer does not need to know exactly how much each church staff member makes in salary.
To me, it comes down to a basic question of trust. If you trust your leadership to take care of your church spiritually, why would you not trust them to take care of your church financially? Conversely, if you're in leadership and have the trust of the congregation in one area, why would you not honor that trust in all other areas?

[El Scorcho]

Anyone else notice that the link to the article on Johnston's church is dead now?

Edit: Here's the updated link...

http://www.realcities.com/mld/kansascit ... 877951.htm

[TallyW]

Okay... I do have a few thoughts to toss out there.

1. I also thought it was strange (funny?) that all of the Kansas City Star articles linked on Google for "First Family Church" are mysteriously bad links.

2. From the titles of those articles it does appear to me that the KCS has been giving them a hard time for a while now.

3. I think that the side of the story we're hearing in these reports must be balanced with the fact that we don't get to read the other side.

4. Their Youth Pastor Christian Newsome is a former Flames QB.

5. A few hundred disgruntled people isn't a big deal for a church that has over 4,000 regular attendees. People leave for tons of reasons and most of them are selfish.

6. Pastors salaries shouldn't be forced to be disclosed to whomever wants them. Pastors don't lose their privacy rights because they work at a non-profit. I'm a Pastor and I frankly don't know jack about what the people in our church make (nor should I) so I don't see a point to having them keep up on my salary. In most churches budgets there is a line item that includes a total for salaries, insurance, etc. for all staff. I'm certain that's the case at FFC. Even one of the complainers mentioned that they get a general statement every year but they don't get the break downs of where the money goes. Basically they are crying b/c they can't decipher who on staff gets what.

There are several reasons it's bad policy to do that:
a. As I mentioned it's a privacy issue.
b. In most organizations staff do not know each others salaries unless staff choose to share that info.
c. B/C staff salaries aren't published new positions can be offered individually and resentment doesn't grow as easily. People work for what they agreed to be paid without worrying about who makes what.
d. Theologically the church isn't the same as a Boy Scout's troop. The donations made by members in the form of tithes are theologically given to God THROUGH the church. The church leadership (in this case elders or treasurers) are the ones accountable for the spending of those funds. The church members do not buy "stock" like a publicly traded company. Theologically you don't want your people to feel like they own the organization b/c it's terrible Christianity and there will be next to no spiritual growth as long as people think they are owed the right to see all of the books whenever they want as if they are entitled based on their giving.

7. Frankly I'm glad to see some big donors leave a church. 9 times out of 10 they tried to use their financial influence to get the staff to do things their way. I'd be concerned if big givers never got upset. Just look at one of the stories the KCS reports... a MONUMENT TO THE PEOPLE that wasn't constructed as a part of the giving campaign. Get over it. You gave to get your kids name on a brick? Demoss was supposed to have a fountain out front with the same thing... I see none and frankly I won't care if they ever build it.

8. People who complain about plans changing are either stupid or have never led anything in their lives. The article says people are frustrated b/c the school didn't start when the building opened.... but the article also explains that the stuff wasn't able to be approved in time. There is a LONG line of things that would go into starting a school and if you can't get your building plans approved in a timely manner it WILL set back everything else. That's a fact. So they bring in the guy, the money doesn't come as fast as they'd like and growth in the church forces them to focus on a main sanctuary and delay the building of the kids space... so what. They still ended up building the kids space it appears.

9. This article specifically points out that JJ receives income from some FOR PROFIT businesses he's established apart from the church. He's probably making a lot more than just his church salary. Besides... what average attender even has a clue what a guy in charge of a 4,000 person organization plus TV,Radio, etc. ministries should be paid? Even if they see a number they won't have a clue what he'd make in the secular world with that level of responsibility.

10. That watchdog group isn't some sort of end-all. Just b/c his church isn't a part of Church-Watch or whatever doesn't mean they are evil or automatically doing wrong.... that's a dumb way to look at things.

11. Personally I thing giving weekly tithe numbers in the church bulletin is stupid and not biblical. The fact is that most spiritually immature people look at those numbers with one of two wrong thoughts. 1. "Hmm... the church is doing well, THEY don't need my money... I'll just drop a buck or two in." or 2. "Wow... the church keeps losing money... that Pastor must be doing something wrong with the books..." or even a 3rd "Wow... the numbers are low... maybe I shouldn't give here b/c things aren't going great." Spiritually speaking a church should teach and preach God's word on it and expect the people to give.


Finally= Every church member votes every week in two ways.

1. You vote with your butt.
2. You vote with your checkbook.

If you don't trust your Pastor or church, vote by finding a church and Pastor you do trust as the man of God to bring you His word as "Thus sayeth the Lord."

[El Scorcho]

1. I also thought it was strange (funny?) that all of the Kansas City Star articles linked on Google for "First Family Church" are mysteriously bad links.

I think I figured that out. It seems that the Kansas City Star articles auto-archive to a parent company's site after a certain period of time. They really should make the old URL's forward to the new article, but that doesn't appear to be what happens.

4. Their Youth Pastor Christian Newsome is a former Flames QB.

By all accounts Newsome was a great guy. However, I have to balance that with my experiences with Jeremy Johnston. He was, hands down, one of the worst people I met in college. I mean worst in every possible way. I don't doubt that people can turn their lives around, but everything I read in that article questioning the family's spending and way of life jives with what I saw Jeremy living out while he was here.

6. Pastors salaries shouldn't be forced to be disclosed to whomever wants them. Pastors don't lose their privacy rights because they work at a non-profit. I'm a Pastor and I frankly don't know jack about what the people in our church make (nor should I) so I don't see a point to having them keep up on my salary. In most churches budgets there is a line item that includes a total for salaries, insurance, etc. for all staff. I'm certain that's the case at FFC. Even one of the complainers mentioned that they get a general statement every year but they don't get the break downs of where the money goes. Basically they are crying b/c they can't decipher who on staff gets what.

I don't see it the same way. I read the article and saw people who had given six and seven figure donations, saw nothing for them and then saw their pastor (and his staff/family) living a somewhat extravagant lifestyle. I'd have a hard time with that as well.

There are several reasons it's bad policy to do that:
a. As I mentioned it's a privacy issue.
b. In most organizations staff do not know each others salaries unless staff choose to share that info.
c. B/C staff salaries aren't published new positions can be offered individually and resentment doesn't grow as easily. People work for what they agreed to be paid without worrying about who makes what.
d. Theologically the church isn't the same as a Boy Scout's troop. The donations made by members in the form of tithes are theologically given to God THROUGH the church. The church leadership (in this case elders or treasurers) are the ones accountable for the spending of those funds. The church members do not buy "stock" like a publicly traded company. Theologically you don't want your people to feel like they own the organization b/c it's terrible Christianity and there will be next to no spiritual growth as long as people think they are owed the right to see all of the books whenever they want as if they are entitled based on their giving.

The difference between FFC and most other churches/organizations is that in all other organizations someone is holding the organization financially accountable. It's not an issue of nosey people wanting to execute their rights as shareholders. It's a matter of people wanting to be certain there isn't any corruption going on. At FFC no one has seen the books besides the Johnston family, and that's the problem. They don't necessarily need to disclose the books to the entire congregation, but by only letting their family members handle things, people have a right to be suspect. In light of how that family is living, even more so. Everyone is prone to temptation, and pastors are certainly no temptation, especially with the amount of money changing hands at FFC. Even the board members interviewed in that article said they could recall the last time the board of the church met, much the less ever seeing any financial records. That's not right!

7. Frankly I'm glad to see some big donors leave a church. 9 times out of 10 they tried to use their financial influence to get the staff to do things their way. I'd be concerned if big givers never got upset. Just look at one of the stories the KCS reports... a MONUMENT TO THE PEOPLE that wasn't constructed as a part of the giving campaign. Get over it. You gave to get your kids name on a brick? Demoss was supposed to have a fountain out front with the same thing... I see none and frankly I won't care if they ever build it.

The point is that the church promised something and didn't deliver. That's not right either. You can't fault people for being betrayed when someone promised them something and then went back on their word. As I understand it, that fountain became a big sticking point at LU too. Dishonesty is never okay. Ever.

11. Personally I thing giving weekly tithe numbers in the church bulletin is stupid and not biblical. The fact is that most spiritually immature people look at those numbers with one of two wrong thoughts. 1. "Hmm... the church is doing well, THEY don't need my money... I'll just drop a buck or two in." or 2. "Wow... the church keeps losing money... that Pastor must be doing something wrong with the books..." or even a 3rd "Wow... the numbers are low... maybe I shouldn't give here b/c things aren't going great." Spiritually speaking a church should teach and preach God's word on it and expect the people to give.

I know you specifically said spiritually immature people fall victime to this specifically, but because my church does this, I have to say that I usually see it a fourth way. If the offering is too low, it's motivation to see if we can't find a way to give above our normal tithe the next time around. If the offering is higher than the budget for that week, I know that our church has specific uses for the money we collect above what's divided up in the budget, and that makes me feel great about us being above what was needed. Feeling great, in turn, makes it very easy for me to keep on giving with a grateful heart.

I normally side with the church in issues, because I've been church staff before. I've done the YP thing. I've been there. Mark my words, though. Something shady is going on at FFC. I hope they turn it around and save that fellowship, but I have a feeling this is not going to go well.

[SuperJon]

At my church at home, we print the total amount of Sunday School offering, offering from the service, tithes, and money towards missions from every week.

[Baldspot]

If true, its sad and seems kinda like Jim Bakker's financial mess at PTL. There could be another side of the story however. The N&A during the 1980's ran some pretty off balance stuff on Jerry. He got caught in similar situations when the finances went south with PTL, there was a lot of money raised for certain projects that got put on hold and the money spent elsewhere. I remember Jerry Johnston running a revival at LU in the 80's and it was a great event. A lot of druggies came on campus after he visited the public schools and heard an excellent message.

That's sad to hear about his son. Its got to be tough to be in that position. During my time at LU their was a son of a Southern Baptist Convention President in school who had some issues with the rules to put it mildly. I hope both have matured and are doing better.