[Purple Haize]

Harris didn’t answer the abortion question either. At least Pence planted his flag and said he was unapologetically Pro Life.

I didn't expect Harris to answer the question. She said she supported the right for a woman to choose which is the standard answer for Democrats.

I'm admittedly harder on Pence here because the question he got was directly in line with why the majority of Christians are willing to choke down voting for Trump - they believe he is most likely to overturn Roe and begin to outlaw abortions. Pence was asked directly if he wanted to see a ban on abortions. He first completely avoided the question and then circled back and said he was pro-life but did not say if he supported banning abortions.

This is an example of why I've come to believe the abortion issue is a political red herring used by the Republican Party in national politics. They know it's the single biggest thing holding the evangelical base to their party, so they continuously say things about being pro-life, but consistently only take incremental baby steps in actually doing stuff about it.

• Only one of the five conservative Justices on the Supreme Court (Thomas) has recently said Roe or Casey were bad law. The others just had an opportunity to go against Casey in a decision and didn't do it.

• There hasn't been major change from the Court in abortion law since 1992.

• Even though Souter, Kennedy, and O'Connor all criticized Roe before they joined the court, each one of them joined in the majority on abortion decisions while they were on the Court.

Now, with a 6-3 majority looming and a real opportunity to overturn Roe, Pence wouldn't go on record saying he wanted the state he governed in the past to outlaw abortion if given the opportunity.

Abortion is a big deal, and while I'm not a single issue voter, there are a lot who are. I wish those Christian voters wouldn't let Pence off the hook on this one. We need to hold our officials accountable and criticize them when they deserve it, even while still voting for them.

I’m unapologetically Pro Life is a pretty strong freaking statement. I’m not sure what else he needed to say on it. No one doubts him.
Roe v Wade is a hot button issue for both sides. Why you only attribute it to Republicans is telling

[paradox]

It was illegitimately legislated through the Court. But, that was nearly 50 years ago. It's not getting overturned. Dems will codify it into law via legislation, once they have the power to do so.

[ALUmnus]

If there is a good chance row might be overturn the left goes to the streets and starts rioting. Best to the wait till it happens then deal with the outburst.

I don't think it would be that impactful, tbh. Overturning Roe doesn't outlaw abortion, it just kicks it back down to the states. The left-leaning states would still have the same access to abortion that they do now.

That's absolutely correct. It's estimated overturning Roe will only result in a 12% reduction in the abortion rate.

Should we apply this same logic to other laws that you would consider unjust? I mean, this is in big part an issue of justice, right?

[Purple Haize]

I don't think it would be that impactful, tbh. Overturning Roe doesn't outlaw abortion, it just kicks it back down to the states. The left-leaning states would still have the same access to abortion that they do now.

That's absolutely correct. It's estimated overturning Roe will only result in a 12% reduction in the abortion rate.

Should we apply this same logic to other laws that you would consider unjust? I mean, this is in big part an issue of justice, right?

I mean those 12% of babies will be happy

[Jonathan Carone]

I’m unapologetically Pro Life is a pretty strong freaking statement. I’m not sure what else he needed to say on it. No one doubts him.
Roe v Wade is a hot button issue for both sides. Why you only attribute it to Republicans is telling

Democrats want there to be access to abortion. That's their policy and they fight for it.

National Republicans claim to be pro-life but - on the national level - there hasn't been much done when the opportunity presented itself. That's why, as a national politician with a state-level background, I wanted to hear what Pence would say to if he'd like to see abortion banned at the state level if Roe were overturned.

Anyone can say they're unapologetically pro-life. It is a statement that has lost its teeth from national politicians because they haven't done as much to support it in recent years. Under this "unapologetically pro-life" administration, Planned Parenthood received a record high amount of taxpayer funding, performed a record-high number of abortions, and received $80 million in covid bailouts.

Where we make some of the most progress in lessening the abortion rate and ratio is at the state level. That's why this was such an important question for Pence to answer. If Roe were overturned, it would be up to the states, and Pence received a softball question about the state he governed and didn't give an answer.

[Jonathan Carone]

I don't think it would be that impactful, tbh. Overturning Roe doesn't outlaw abortion, it just kicks it back down to the states. The left-leaning states would still have the same access to abortion that they do now.

That's absolutely correct. It's estimated overturning Roe will only result in a 12% reduction in the abortion rate.

Should we apply this same logic to other laws that you would consider unjust? I mean, this is in big part an issue of justice, right?

A 12% reduction is great! A 12% increase in the right direction on any unjust law is a great start.

It's not enough though.

In this case, overturning Roe isn't the silver bullet against abortions that most conservatives thing it is.

Being pro-life cannot be just about overturning Roe. If we have a combination of that plus the pre and post-birth programs to support women who get pregnant, then we can make an even more significant impact in protecting the unborn.

Overturning Roe solves the external problem.

Providing care and pre/post-birth support to women helps solve the internal/emotional problem and gives them hope they can actually bring a baby into this world and the baby have a good quality of life.

When we solve both the external and the internal/emotional problem, then we make a huge dent into this and more babies are saved.

[Purple Haize]

I’m unapologetically Pro Life is a pretty strong freaking statement. I’m not sure what else he needed to say on it. No one doubts him.
Roe v Wade is a hot button issue for both sides. Why you only attribute it to Republicans is telling

Democrats want there to be access to abortion. That's their policy and they fight for it.

National Republicans claim to be pro-life but - on the national level - there hasn't been much done when the opportunity presented itself. That's why, as a national politician with a state-level background, I wanted to hear what Pence would say to if he'd like to see abortion banned at the state level if Roe were overturned.

Anyone can say they're unapologetically pro-life. It is a statement that has lost its teeth from national politicians because they haven't done as much to support it in recent years. Under this "unapologetically pro-life" administration, Planned Parenthood received a record high amount of taxpayer funding, performed a record-high number of abortions, and received $80 million in covid bailouts.

Where we make some of the most progress in lessening the abortion rate and ratio is at the state level. That's why this was such an important question for Pence to answer. If Roe were overturned, it would be up to the states, and Pence received a softball question about the state he governed and didn't give an answer.

“Access to abortion “. Wow. You glossed that over. I mean Harris has said she’s good with abortion through the 3 RD trimester. You didn’t think that was worth a deep dive? Maybe a quick Wade?
Pence isn’t the Gov of Indiana anymore. If we’re to have answered that the screeching class would have been all over him trying to dictate to the States.

[paradox]

Any suggestion that Pence is not presidential is purely partisan. Trump is inspirational, but lacks the practical situational leadership of Pence.

At one time Biden was a credible politician. Never presidential though. But this ticket, Biden-Harris, has to be the goofiest presidential duo ever imagined. That distinction seemed forever locked on the McCain-Palin ticket. But the Dems somehow managed to surpass it. A Biden in cognitive decline along with Harris and Pelosi will be uninterrupted buffoonery. All of which, will play into Pence's hands, four years from now.
...

[ALUmnus]

That's absolutely correct. It's estimated overturning Roe will only result in a 12% reduction in the abortion rate.

Should we apply this same logic to other laws that you would consider unjust? I mean, this is in big part an issue of justice, right?

A 12% reduction is great! A 12% increase in the right direction on any unjust law is a great start.

It's not enough though.

In this case, overturning Roe isn't the silver bullet against abortions that most conservatives thing it is.

Being pro-life cannot be just about overturning Roe. If we have a combination of that plus the pre and post-birth programs to support women who get pregnant, then we can make an even more significant impact in protecting the unborn.

Overturning Roe solves the external problem.

Providing care and pre/post-birth support to women helps solve the internal/emotional problem and gives them hope they can actually bring a baby into this world and the baby have a good quality of life.

When we solve both the external and the internal/emotional problem, then we make a huge dent into this and more babies are saved.

I'm not sure what conservatives you are listening to, but that's a massive caricature. Pro-lifers are doing all of those things, en masse. That whole argument is just a complete deflection. This instance is about the law. I don't think you're giving enough credit to how significant that is. If abortion is murder and unjust, then the current law sanctions that. That's a big impediment to outlawing it entirely.

Sure, you may think that we're just getting lip service from Republicans, but you know exactly what you're going to get with Democrats.

[stokesjokes]

Parts of the left have radicalized around abortion. Gone are the days of Clinton saying he wanted it to be “safe, legal, and rare.” However, from a national politics standpoint, abortions have gone down just as much during democratic administrations as during republican ones. Clearly national politics don’t have the sway voters are led to believe.

[Jonathan Carone]

Sure, you may think that we're just getting lip service from Republicans, but you know exactly what you're going to get with Democrats.

And that's my issue! We know exactly what we're getting from the left. They don't hide it. That's why I'm not bothered by Harris not answering the question. I know her stance already and it's not changing.

On the right though, I don't know where things are. I know where they say they are, but at this point that's as much rhetoric as anything. It would've been nice to hear from the Evangelical former governor of Indiana that yes, he wanted to ban abortions if Roe were overturned. He sidestepped it though which gives me even more doubt that anything will actually get done on the issue.

[Jonathan Carone]

Parts of the left have radicalized around abortion. Gone are the days of Clinton saying he wanted it to be “safe, legal, and rare.” However, from a national politics standpoint, abortions have gone down just as much during democratic administrations as during republican ones. Clearly national politics don’t have the sway voters are led to believe.

They've gone down under every president since Reagan. The abortion ratio has also been going down steeply as well. States legislation and access to pre/post-birth care are the two biggest thing that impact that.

Regardless of what the loud, radical left push for, the truth is most Americans don't want people to have abortions. Notre Dame did a study that concluded:

1. Americans don’t talk much about abortion.

2. Survey statistics oversimplify Americans’ abortion attitudes.

3. Position labels are imprecise substitutes for actual views toward abortion.

4. Abortion talk concerns as much what happens before and after as it does abortion itself.

5. Americans ponder a “good life” as much as they do “life.”

6. Abortion is not merely political to everyday Americans, but intimately personal.

7. Americans don’t “want” abortion.

Source

[Purple Haize]

Sure, you may think that we're just getting lip service from Republicans, but you know exactly what you're going to get with Democrats.

And that's my issue! We know exactly what we're getting from the left. They don't hide it. That's why I'm not bothered by Harris not answering the question. I know her stance already and it's not changing.

On the right though, I don't know where things are. I know where they say they are, but at this point that's as much rhetoric as anything. It would've been nice to hear from the Evangelical former governor of Indiana that yes, he wanted to ban abortions if Roe were overturned. He sidestepped it though which gives me even more doubt that anything will actually get done on the issue.

They absolutely do hide it. That’s why she didn’t answer the question. The vast majority of Americans are horrified when they learn of 3rd trimester abortions. The left has done a great job soft soaping what abortion does. If Harris had come out as strongly pro abortion as she did anti...er...pro fracking....Katy bar the door. They’d lose the election in a landslide

[Jonathan Carone]

I'm not sure what conservatives you are listening to, but that's a massive caricature. Pro-lifers are doing all of those things, en masse.

I wanted to hit this point as well. I live in a county that was 76% Trump last election. Driving through my town, there's not a single Democratic yard sign in any yard that I've seen so far. Only 14% of adults have graduated college. 57% of adults never attended anything past high school. This is the demographic that votes Republican more than 2:1.

These are the conservatives I'm around and the ones who I hear these things from routinely.

[paradox]

So, most "educated" people embrace abortion rights? What does that say about education when they can't make sense of morality in any coherent way. Ask a progressive why abortion rights should be favored over the right to exist and you'll get some very flat responses with a pure lack of critical thought.

The bottom line is that people know instinctively that abortion is wrong and unethical. It's unthinkable to a child. But once they hit their school days indoctrination and conformity become more prominent.

[paradox]

I've known several over the years (male and female) who are haunted by their choice to abort. The guilt and psychological toll is heavy. Ben Folds captures this perfectly with his song "Brick." Folds is not a believer, but he's human, honest, and has a conscience. Probably one of the saddest songs ever written once you understand the narrative.

[Jonathan Carone]

I've known several over the years (male and female) who are haunted by their choice to abort. The guilt and psychological toll is heavy. Ben Folds captures this perfectly with his song "Brick." Folds is not a believer, but he's human, honest, and has a conscience. Probably one of the saddest songs ever written once you understand the narrative.

The church I worked at had a partnership with an incredible non profit that worked with those who have had an abortion. They do weekend retreats to help people heal from it. The stories they tell of Jesus meeting people in that pain are amazing.

[paradox]

That's good stuff.

[Jonathan Carone]

They do this thing where they give everyone teddy bears to symbolize the child. They’ll do men only retreats and each time you’ll have grown men who were super hard on the outside just bawling by Saturday night. The transformation in two days is one of the coolest things I’ve seen.

[stokesjokes]

So, most "educated" people embrace abortion rights?

This isn’t the point Jon was making. He was asked what conservatives he is around who don’t endorse the kinds of programs he’s talking about that help mothers and lower the risk of abortion.

[paradox]

I understand that he wasn't saying that. Didn't intend to imply it. Just weighing in a a nuance that I thought was intersting

[TH Spangler]

A little off topic ..... but .... I smell a big shakedown coming, democrats are portraying themselves as being ready to break up big Tech. All they're really doing is positioning themselves to cash in, get paid to back off.

[JK37]

October 15, HBOMAX, West Wing reboot of “Hartsfield’s Landing” episode. If you’re engaging in this thread, I promise you’ll enjoy it.

It’s idyllic and definitely slanted left. But, oh, for a more civil time in the national political discourse. One can dream...

[RubberMallet]

Should we apply this same logic to other laws that you would consider unjust? I mean, this is in big part an issue of justice, right?

A 12% reduction is great! A 12% increase in the right direction on any unjust law is a great start.

It's not enough though.

In this case, overturning Roe isn't the silver bullet against abortions that most conservatives thing it is.

Being pro-life cannot be just about overturning Roe. If we have a combination of that plus the pre and post-birth programs to support women who get pregnant, then we can make an even more significant impact in protecting the unborn.

Overturning Roe solves the external problem.

Providing care and pre/post-birth support to women helps solve the internal/emotional problem and gives them hope they can actually bring a baby into this world and the baby have a good quality of life.

When we solve both the external and the internal/emotional problem, then we make a huge dent into this and more babies are saved.

I'm not sure what conservatives you are listening to, but that's a massive caricature. Pro-lifers are doing all of those things, en masse. That whole argument is just a complete deflection. This instance is about the law. I don't think you're giving enough credit to how significant that is. If abortion is murder and unjust, then the current law sanctions that. That's a big impediment to outlawing it entirely.

Sure, you may think that we're just getting lip service from Republicans, but you know exactly what you're going to get with Democrats.

christian organizations designed around supporting moms take in almost 6 BILLION dollars a year in supporting these children and mothers. Foster organizations are DOMINATED by conservative christian homes. The idea that nobody cares about these kids or moms after they are born simply because we don't want an inefficient state social net to be responsible for them is pretty absurd. In some areas these organizations and foster groups are overfunded or have families sitting by phones just waiting for a phone call. in other areas both are very much underfunded and are begging families to help.

[RubberMallet]

Parts of the left have radicalized around abortion. Gone are the days of Clinton saying he wanted it to be “safe, legal, and rare.” However, from a national politics standpoint, abortions have gone down just as much during democratic administrations as during republican ones. Clearly national politics don’t have the sway voters are led to believe.

They've gone down under every president since Reagan. The abortion ratio has also been going down steeply as well. States legislation and access to pre/post-birth care are the two biggest thing that impact that.

The biggest impact is science and statistics. Science and statistics will be the death nail for abortion. First, the ability to see and hear your child has improved so dramatically over the past 30 years, the statistics on abortion after hearing a heartbeat or seeing 3d imagry is fractional in comparison to those who don't. All of those things now happen much earlier in the pregnancy cycle. They used to not happen until the childs' development had been way under way.

The other thing science is solving is viability. our neighbor had a child who was born super early and was 19oz. a thriving young girl today.

when we thought this thing was a blob of goo and not really much of anything, its much easier to detach from it. but when we understand its an organism with discernable human features and would likely survive if born today, it changes everything.

Statistics show that many countries are aborting their females into oblivion. other statistics show that abortion clinics specifically target specific racial and financial demographics. Just completely uneasy information to digest. And you can't sweep it under the rug forever.

Also the fundamentalism born in the 50's of this crazy idea that hammering abstinence instead of birth control is fortunately crumbling away. They couldn't keep it in their pants in Biblical times and they can't keep it in their pants today. reality is reality. Abstinence is obviously the most prudent solution but we have to be real here.

abortion is a deeply personal thing that at a macro level is easy to make black and white. But much harder at a micro personal level with a young woman or young couple really wrestling with a decision that will alter forever their future.