[Class of 20Something]

The hubris vs hypocrisy angle is new and so spot on. So we'll put.

[flameshaw]

Could that reflect onto the board? Again - this is hindsight - but did they rush into a decision for the sake of stability and continuing the Falwell name? Is it possible he was never qualified to be president and the board shouldn’t see that in a true transition vetting process?

My understanding is that JR taking over as president of Liberty and Jonathon as pastor of TRBC is something that was set in motion a couple of years earlier when Doc had a big health scare where his heart actually stopped briefly. Both knew the day was coming. In 20/20 hindsight, it appears they took different paths in preparing for it.

Agree. Jonathon was only marginally prepared better. He also didn't have the breadth of responsibility the Jr. did. However, Jonathon actually took his job much more seriously and with a LOT less of an ego trip. I don't give Jr. much slack for his poor job. He put himself in some situations that he shouldn't have. It had nothing to do with his abilities, or lack thereof. IMHO

[Jonathan Carone]

I know Jr was in line to take over the school, but we confirmed him in like four days I think. Should we have gone the interim route at first with plans to confirm after the process was finished and emotions weren’t so high?

Again - we’re playing the hindsight game here. It’s not to place blame, just to see if there was a different route we could’ve taken so we learn for the future.

[flameshaw]

I know Jr was in line to take over the school, but we confirmed him in like four days I think. Should we have gone the interim route at first with plans to confirm after the process was finished and emotions weren’t so high?

Again - we’re playing the hindsight game here. It’s not to place blame, just to see if there was a different route we could’ve taken so we learn for the future.

It happens all the time in churches and other businesses, the line of succession is drawn way before a change is required. Pastors, often choose their successors, even people who are not family. Most of them end up badly.
Unfortunately, these decisions are almost never questioned and rubber stamped by those who follow a charismatic leader.
As I recall Jonathon was voted in the first Sunday after Sr's passing, I could be wrong. However, without any proof of substantial ineffectiveness for the job, no challenges to the previous leaders wishes usually appear.
The four day vetting process was for Ian, at least according to some here, even though it had been going on for some time and was obviously a great hire. It could have been the same time frame for Fr., not sure. But imo, it wouldn't have made any differnce if it eas 4 days, or 4 months. No one wanted to disrespect Doc's wishes.
When you hire a lot of people, some slip through the cracks, no one gets it right 100% of the time. Besides, back then, it is very doubtful that Jr. had a lot of problems that could be unearthed. It was only after his dad's death that they started to overtly appear and to a much larger extent after Macel passed. imho

[olldflame]

I know Jr was in line to take over the school, but we confirmed him in like four days I think. Should we have gone the interim route at first with plans to confirm after the process was finished and emotions weren’t so high?

Again - we’re playing the hindsight game here. It’s not to place blame, just to see if there was a different route we could’ve taken so we learn for the future.

It happens all the time in churches and other businesses, the line of succession is drawn way before a change is required. Pastors, often choose their successors, even people who are not family. Most of them end up badly.
Unfortunately, these decisions are almost never questioned and rubber stamped by those who follow a charismatic leader.
As I recall Jonathon was voted in the first Sunday after Sr's passing, I could be wrong. However, without any proof of substantial ineffectiveness for the job, no challenges to the previous leaders wishes usually appear.
The four day vetting process was for Ian, at least according to some here, even though it had been going on for some time and was obviously a great hire.
When you hire a lot of people, some slip through the cracks, no one gets it right 100% of the time. Besides, back then, it is very doubtful that Jr. had a lot of problems that could be unearthed. It was only after his dad's death that they started to overtly appear and to a much larger extent after Macel passed. imho

You are spot on in mentioning the significance of Macel's passing. While they had a stormy relationship at times, I feel confident JR was hesitant to stray too far from the path while she was still around.

[Purple Haize]

Could that reflect onto the board? Again - this is hindsight - but did they rush into a decision for the sake of stability and continuing the Falwell name? Is it possible he was never qualified to be president and the board shouldn’t see that in a true transition vetting process?

My understanding is that JR taking over as president of Liberty and Jonathon as pastor of TRBC is something that was set in motion a couple of years earlier when Doc had a big health scare where his heart actually stopped briefly. Both knew the day was coming. In 20/20 hindsight, it appears they took different paths in preparing for it.

I think everyone thought there’d be more time. I would say taking the reigns of a church is easier than a University. Add to that the 2 completely different personalities of the people involved you can see that they naturally handled it differently. Also, in deterioration in the prestige and/or size of TRBC will not be as noticeable as the same at Liberty University.
@Jonathan Carone the Board has a lot to answer for but I’m not sure this is one. He knows whose counsel he trusted and his dad trusted and should have started there. He also would have needed to be open to counsel.
@thepostman you might want to check with your doctor tomorrow

[Sly Fox]

Remembering the conversations I had with leaders of the university at the time, the succession plan was clearly defined at the time of Doc's passing. Both sons were highly involved in operations of their respective organizations behind the scenes before taking leadership. The biggest question with Jonathan was whether he had the charisma to maintain the TRBC mantra as one of the most influential churches in America. To a certain degree all those questions were answered. With Junior he had demonstrated a keen ability to position the university structurally for continued financial success. What he did not have an ability to demonstrate prior to his ascension was how he would manage the spiritual and operational leadership of the school. The former has been apparent for some time through his delegation of leadership through OSD. The latter was revealed in his tactical approach to leveraging financial resources to build infrastructure and through his focus on controlling the faculty under the tutelage of Godwin. The blind spots were there at the time he took leadership.

The path to our current tragic situation was enabled by the Liberty community assuming that accepting the mantle of leadership from his father would keep him from straying from his dad's mission.

[Jonathan Carone]

@Purple Haize I’m not necessarily trying to place blame, moreso examining the past to see how we can avoid things that maybe could’ve been done better so we do what’s best moving forward. Even the best laid plans can have holes in them in retrospect.

[Just John]

Could that reflect onto the board? Again - this is hindsight - but did they rush into a decision for the sake of stability and continuing the Falwell name? Is it possible he was never qualified to be president and the board shouldn’t see that in a true transition vetting process?

My understanding is that JR taking over as president of Liberty and Jonathon as pastor of TRBC is something that was set in motion a couple of years earlier when Doc had a big health scare where his heart actually stopped briefly. Both knew the day was coming. In 20/20 hindsight, it appears they took different paths in preparing for it.

This. There was never a doubt this would be the case.

[Just John]

Remembering the conversations I had with leaders of the university at the time, the succession plan was clearly defined at the time of Doc's passing. Both sons were highly involved in operations of their respective organizations behind the scenes before taking leadership. The biggest question with Jonathan was whether he had the charisma to maintain the TRBC mantra as one of the most influential churches in America. To a certain degree all those questions were answered. With Junior he had demonstrated a keen ability to position the university structurally for continued financial success. What he did not have an ability to demonstrate prior to his ascension was how he would manage the spiritual and operational leadership of the school. The former has been apparent for some time through his delegation of leadership through OSD. The latter was revealed in his tactical approach to leveraging financial resources to build infrastructure and through his focus on controlling the faculty under the tutelage of Godwin. The blind spots were there at the time he took leadership.

The path to our current tragic situation was enabled by the Liberty community assuming that accepting the mantle of leadership from his father would keep him from straying from his dad's mission.

As I understand it from some insiders at the time, there was more certainty Jr would be successful with LU than Jonathan would be with TRBC. This was in part based on Jr. being with Doc everyday at LU since grad school while Jonathon had many different businesses and hobbies and before really engaging much at TRBC. Jonathon stepped up beginning that first Sunday after Doc died.

[Purple Haize]

Junior was a much different and id argue more effective behind the scenes guy. I was super positive about the direction LU could take when he assumed power. That lasted about 2 years

[Jonathan Carone]

There was never a doubt this would be the case.

And I think that might have been part of the problem.

Did anyone take the time to ask Jr if this was a job he actually wanted? Did he feel like it was something he could turn down?

Again - not placing blame. Just trying to piece together blind spots we didn’t see at the time.

[Jonathan Carone]

Unrelated - I’ve never met someone named Jonathon yet people default to spelling it like that all the time.

The lead pastor at TRBC‘s name is spelled Jonathan.

[/petpeeve]

[Just John]

There was never a doubt this would be the case.

And I think that might have been part of the problem.

Did anyone take the time to ask Jr if this was a job he actually wanted? Did he feel like it was something he could turn down?

Again - not placing blame. Just trying to piece together blind spots we didn’t see at the time.

I guess it comes down to whether he could tell his dad or not.

[Purple Haize]

There was never a doubt this would be the case.

And I think that might have been part of the problem.

Did anyone take the time to ask Jr if this was a job he actually wanted? Did he feel like it was something he could turn down?

Again - not placing blame. Just trying to piece together blind spots we didn’t see at the time.

Which circles back to what i posited several weeks ago

[Jonathan Carone]

There was never a doubt this would be the case.

And I think that might have been part of the problem.

Did anyone take the time to ask Jr if this was a job he actually wanted? Did he feel like it was something he could turn down?

Again - not placing blame. Just trying to piece together blind spots we didn’t see at the time.

I guess it comes down to whether he could tell his dad or not.

And whether his dad would’ve listened.

[ballcoach15]

I think a bigger question might be, who becomes pastor of TRBC when Jonathan leaves ?

[Purple Haize]

I think a bigger question might be, who becomes pastor of TRBC when Jonathan leaves ?

It’s a good question. Certainly not a bigger one. And one that won’t be needed for awhile, hopefully

[JK37]

The plan of succession was in place and well-known. I think there are those who thought they had more time, but don’t we all?

JJ and Jonathan couldn’t say No. Not to their father. Not many people could.

What I remember most about those days of transition is how ill-prepared JJ was for the public eye. He was a truly moribund public speaker. That first commencement was brutal. None of us knew much about the University’s new leader, so a lot of assumptions about JJ and comparisons to his father were made.

I also remember thinking Becki was far more comfortable with public attention than he, so any growth in that area was traced to her and experience.

In a weird sort of way, I wonder if he’s been a puppet all his life. Or feels that way. Of course he claims credit for the financial success of the University - what else does he have? Some of his greatest efforts have been to put his OWN stamp on LU. The money earned and endowment built and campus grown and online enrollment exploded - all the measurables - could help paint some of that picture. Doing so after removing as many of his father’s people as he could solidified it I’m sure in his mind.

But does he really care beyond his own credit? And if so, why couldn’t he see the damage his decisions would do? Was he blinded by fame? Did he ever really have a servant’s heart? How far from the Lord did his heart wander? The power of our hearts to justify sin when we want to is staggering. But for the grace of God, there goes every one of us.

The plan was succession by JJ. But even Jerry Sr. believed he had more time. So I’m left to think some of the responsibility for not preparing JJ lies with Jerry Sr. There were things the family knew about JJ’s readiness, or lack thereof. If we fault JJ for not choosing or listening to good counsel, I would first ask Jerry Sr. what he did to encourage that. Macel knew Becki was a problem. Said so. He wasn’t listening to counsel then. How’s that look now with the benefit of hindsight?

[bluedevilflame]

Kirk has removed any mention of it from his social media and Jerry was removed from the website. This really going to survive with both namesakes being out?

[olldflame]

I did not realize Jenna Ellis was part of this. She is legit; a much bigger deal than Kirk or JR. If they want to keep the mission of the center going, they could change the name and rebuild it around her.

[paradox]

Jenna Ellis is a class act. Eric Metaxas as well.

[Just John]

Jenna Ellis is a class act. Eric Metaxas as well.

I used to like Metaxas...until he had that clown and provocateur, Milo Yiannopoulos, on his radio program in 2019, multiple times, after it was known that he made these comments:

He lamented PP and abortion killing black babies because it "prevented him from having sex with them in 20 years".

"Behind every black joke is a scientific fact"

...sexual relationships between 13-year-old boys and adult men and women can "happen perfectly consensually", because some 13-year-olds are, in his view, sexually and emotionally mature enough to consent to sex with adults; he spoke favourably both of gay 13-year-old boys having sex with adult men and straight 13-year-old boys having sex with adult women. He used his own experience as an example, saying he was mature enough to be capable of giving consent at a young age. He also stated that "paedophilia is not a sexual attraction to somebody 13 years old, who is sexually mature" but rather that "paedophilia is attraction to children who have not reached puberty." Later in the interview, after his previous comments received some pushback from the hosts, he stated: "I think the age of consent law is probably about right, that is probably roughly the right age ... but there are certainly people who are capable of giving consent at a younger age, I certainly consider myself to be one of them."

No thanks!

[paradox]

C'mon man, Eric is a good guy. You can't blame him for something someone else said.

[Purple Haize]

I liked Milo. He was a flawed hurting person. Probably still is. But you talk about someone who’s rise and fall happened in a blink of an eye.