[paradox]

Kel:

I completely disagree.

Race exclusion is a serious miscomprehension of the gospel. You can't just brush over something like that. This is something that calls for genuine repentence. If BJU was serious about moving on from their ugly history, then they'd publicly declare their wrongdoing and prove their change of heart by making a mends with the black community.


What if BJU turned over a new leaf and offered 1,000 scholarships to underprivliged black students. Would all the whites transfer? What percentage of the alumni would continue to support the school for such an endeavor?

I've noticed that none of the BJU apologists are interested in taking this one on. Perhaps this would be a good place to leave it and cease with the lame excuses for BJU.

Have any of you stopped to think that all of this happy talk about BJU being ok might be just a tad bit insensative toward non-whites.

[4everfsu]

Belcherboy, interesting that you mention Phelps name, he did attend BJU for three semesters, and then was kicked out, official word from BJU was he was mentally unstable, his name is in the list of non graduating BJU students in the link I provided.
For those who think BJU changed their interracial dating policy because of some guidance light that hit BJ III, think again. After Bush appeared on BJU campus during the campaign, and the school's interracial policy was aired to the nation, BJ III appeared on Larry King Live show and announced to the world the BJU was changing their policy on interracial dating. I remember watching the show and was blown away that the school changed.
Their dress code has not changed since I was there in 1971, nor has their censorship of what student can see, listen too, etc. I doubt if their students there could have a debate openly like we are having about their policy.

[Libertine]

Have any of you stopped to think that all of this happy talk about BJU being ok might be just a tad bit insensative toward non-whites.

Really!? The guy who brought the phrase "Uncle Tom" to this board is going to complain about something being insensitive. Really?!
As for the BJU "apologists" you keep quoting yourself about, if you were to actually read even 50% of the posts in this thread you would see that no one is defending BJU's institutional policies.
Some of us do, however, realize that the people at BJU -- misguided as they may be -- are fellow human beings and fellow Christians who do not deserve to be unequivocally villified by someone who's sitting at a computer 300 miles away and doesn't know the first thing about them. That does not make us "apologists" for an obviously flawed doctrine. It means we give a crap about people in general and, particularly, about fellow believers.

[bigsmooth]

i have added to this thread, and i have a bit more to say. i am a bi-racial person. i am glad BJU has relaxed their policy on interracial dating. i have had friends that went there, and after one semester a "friend" did not talk to me again because of who i was. they told me it was wrong, and said that it was best that we not be friends. this friend of mine had dinner before in my home, and had a good relationship with my parents. is that Christ-like?? so do i like what BJU has done to some people no. are all atudents at BJU racists? i doubt it. im sure there are some good kids there as well as faculty. but my reasons for not liking that school are valid. in regards to dox's "uncle tom" comment. i understand where he is coming from, and it did not bother me in the least. i had problems with jerry after i learned that back in early 70's blacks were not allowed to attend LCA. i had lunch with jerry one day and he said that time in his life was one that was totally wrong, and the ministry has righted itself and has done a better job in recruiting miniorities. is LU totally there yet? no, but the strides are being made.

[Libertine]

in regards to dox's "uncle tom" comment. i understand where he is coming from, and it did not bother me in the least.

That makes one of us. I don't care where it's coming from. To me, "Uncle Tom" is right near the top of the most insulting and ignorant things you can call someone.

[bigsmooth]

i see your point too LIB. this has been a very good debate though.

[kel varson]

BJU is not KJV only. They sell other versions, namely NKJV and NAS in their bookstore. They do prefer the KJV, I think. They also approve of the NIV.

[Libertine]

i see your point too LIB. this has been a very good debate though.

Agreed. I just can't stand it when every individual person that's employed by an organization gets lumped together as having the same belief system or being responsible for a reprehensible policy by the institution they work for. Those of us who have passed through LU/LCA/TRBC sometime between now and 1955 know about that all too well.

Honestly, I don't why the interracial thing has been such a tough issue in Christian circles. I grew up Baptist so I can't speak for all denominations but it seems like the church lags behind the world in this area when it should have been out in front of it a long time ago. I can remember, as a child, being taught that interracial dating was wrong, though nobody could give a good Biblical explanation as to why. Shortly after my family left a church in the mid-80's, it literally split over the issue of whether or not to allow black members. Even today, I know a woman (in her 60's) who is a strong Christian but who truly believes that interracial children cannot get into Heaven. She doesn't have any Scripture to back that up but that's what she was taught as a child so that's what she believes. I just don't get how the church could take that direction. It's irrational on every level. Isn't the Gospel supposed to be the great equalizer? Have not all men sinned? Didn't Jesus die for everyone? Are we not supposed to take that message to the ends of the earth? Does it matter what the people look like when we get there?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Christians are supposed to be different but there's no way a rational Christian can read the New Testament and be OK w/ what BJU does in terms of interpersonal relationships, particularly when it comes to race. I want their policies to change, but I realize that the best means I have of making that happen is praying for them. Publicly berating the individuals there only serves to force them away from the mainstream and further into a 'bunker' mentality.

[Sly Fox]

To be fair, the church also led the charge for the dismantling of the slavery system. But many well-intentioned folks simply fell into the trap of believing something because that's the way it had always been. While much of what has gone down in society (and the church for that matter) over the past couple of decades has seen a shift away from Christian principles, the dramatic decrease in racism in society has been a great testament to our generation.

[4everfsu]

BJU was never a KJV advocate when I attended in 1971, I was thought of the odd ball on campus as they endorse the RSV at that time. Don't know where you are getting they support the KJV now

[4everfsu]

Libertine you said the following

Publicly berating the individuals there only serves to force them away from the mainstream and further into a 'bunker' mentality.


Do you think that BJU would have changed their stand on interracial dating if it had not been brought before the public during the presidential campaign? Without the public berating they may still be stuck in that mind set so to speak.

[paradox]

in regards to dox's "uncle tom" comment. i understand where he is coming from, and it did not bother me in the least.

That makes one of us. I don't care where it's coming from. To me, "Uncle Tom" is right near the top of the most insulting and ignorant things you can call someone.

Dude,

You're in your own fantasy world over this Uncle Tom thing. It was a valid point.

[paradox]

To be fair, the church also led the charge for the dismantling of the slavery system. But many well-intentioned folks simply fell into the trap of believing something because that's the way it had always been. While much of what has gone down in society (and the church for that matter) over the past couple of decades has seen a shift away from Christian principles, the dramatic decrease in racism in society has been a great testament to our generation.

This is a good point: abolition movement, John Brown and Harper's Ferry, Wilberforce, Finney, and Wesley, ect.---evangelicals led the way.

But we're talkin' bout BJU now--and like it or not, they're known for two things: legalism and race exclusion.

Some of you guys are taking this a little too personally, as if there was some mysterious LU connection. Old Lynchburg Baptist's most legalistic days couldn't hold a candle to the kind of legalist nonsense that has gone on at BJU.

Come on now, BJU is the place where Billy Graham had to leave after only one semester because he found the environment to be excessively legalistic and stifling. And Bob Jones Sr. gave him the 'ol proverbial kick in the behind on the way out as he told him that he'd never amount to anything.

LU really is "Liberal" University in comparison to BJU and it always will be. And there is such a thing as liberty in Christ. And all believers are truly equal in Christ: Jew and Greek or Black and White.

[Libertine]

Libertine you said the following

Publicly berating the individuals there only serves to force them away from the mainstream and further into a 'bunker' mentality.


Do you think that BJU would have changed their stand on interracial dating if it had not been brought before the public during the presidential campaign? Without the public berating they may still be stuck in that mind set so to speak.

You have a point there but I would say that that particular berating only changed the policy, not the mindset that left the policy in place for so long.

[paradox]

Kel:

I completely disagree.

Race exclusion is a serious miscomprehension of the gospel. You can't just brush over something like that. This is something that calls for genuine repentence. If BJU was serious about moving on from their ugly history, then they'd publicly declare their wrongdoing and prove their change of heart by making a mends with the black community.


What if BJU turned over a new leaf and offered 1,000 scholarships to underprivliged black students. Would all the whites transfer? What percentage of the alumni would continue to support the school for such an endeavor?

I've noticed that none of the BJU apologists are interested in taking this one on. Perhaps this would be a good place to leave it and cease with the lame excuses for BJU.

Come on now, some you all who think that BJ is just A-OK, take this one on.

What happens when brothers start gettin' scholarships?

What would happen to their support if they genuninely repudiated their past and demonstrated evidence of repentance?

If a school like that truly changes, does it get renamed?

[4everfsu]

Libertine you maybe right, the policy at BJU about interacial dating may have changed but the mindset may not have. As I heard growing up, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.
I am glad you came back to this discussion.

On another note, can anyone think of attending a college with no intercollegiate sports? USF in Tampa Fl was like that starting out in the 1950 but changed in the 1970s. Of course USF is not a christian college.

[Cider Jim]

To me, "Uncle Tom" is right near the top of the most insulting and ignorant things you can call someone.

I did a whole graduate paper on this term up at UVa, and my research said that for African Americans in the 1950s-1960s, "Uncle Tom" was as offensive, if not more so, than the "N-word."

The term got its negative association not from Harriet Beecher Stowe, but from Malcolm X, who used it often in his Autobiograpy of Malcolm X which he wrote with Alex Haley of Roots fame.

Old timers may remember that "Uncle Tom" was a term used to describe both Chris Darden in the OJ Simpson trial and to describe Densil Washington's character in Remember the Titans.

And as to BJU, it is actually known for 3 things (not 2)--legalism, racial issues, and lack of regional accreditation.

[paradox]

BJU is what it is.

That place has always had cultish tendancies and still does. Jesus and Paul clearly denounced legalism and race exclusion.

And as a side note, we are addressing the false theology and philosophy of BJU and those who defend it, not the poor souls who are forced to attend there due to the misguidance of their parents and pastors. Those kids are victums in a sense as well. And if a former student from there wishes to join the LU community, he/she should be welcomed with open arms. I'm all for helping these kids.

[Libertine]

On another note, can anyone think of attending a college with no intercollegiate sports? USF in Tampa Fl was like that starting out in the 1950 but changed in the 1970s. Of course USF is not a christian college.

Not in this day and age. The D1 athletics program was one of the factors that brought me to LU. You've got to have a common thread that the entire student body can pull together and rally around to maintain school spirit and athletics is the simplest way to do that. I think BJ can get away without intercollegiate athletics b/c they've more or less created an island for themselves and there aren't many distractions to pull the students attention away from the school.

[paradox]

On another note, can anyone think of attending a college with no intercollegiate sports? USF in Tampa Fl was like that starting out in the 1950 but changed in the 1970s. Of course USF is not a christian college.

I'm not so sure that you can rightly call BJU a Christian college either. I'm not saying there are no Christians attending there and I'm not talking about people being perfect either, but rather: How can you call something Christian, when its philosophy clearly opposes basic Christian teaching? It would be anti-Christian in truest sense.

[4everfsu]

BJU had intercollegiate sports at one time but dropped it due to the schools they had to play non christian schools, etc. Their seperation beliefs probably had a hand in their decision.

[belcherboy]

And as a side note, we are addressing the false theology and philosophy of BJU and those who defend it

What is that false theology and philosophy? The same false theology that Liberty University had 30 years ago?

Again, I don't agree with BJU in many areas, but they have changed their philosophy. Just because you and others do not think it is authentic, does not change that fact. Their are people of different races on that campus, they are allowed to attend school and date each other at this point. I find nothing currently from BJU that states they are lesser human beings or are to be treated differently. Why can't we give them that much credit?

I sometimes think Christians beat up on each other too much. Let's verbally abuse Rev. Phelps and the freaks that are clearly making a mockery of Christianity than constantly pick on the ones that at least seem to me to be taking steps in the right direction. I've known some "quality" people that have come from BJU and would rather see it flourish than watch it implode. Again, if someone has something that is currently false theology that BJU still embraces, I would LOVE to hear it. Of course, I'm sure you can find some professors at just about any Christian institution, even Liberty, that teach some sort of wrong/misinterpreted philosophy/theology.

I really can't believe I am sticking up for BJU!!

[flameshaw]

BJU had intercollegiate sports at one time but dropped it due to the schools they had to play non christian schools, etc. Their seperation beliefs probably had a hand in their decision.

Yes, I heard on old timer say that the other schools wouldn't play them becuase they got tired of BJU beating them. I think more of an urban legend than truth. Another excuse was becuase the other schools served beer at the games. As someone said earlier, I am confident that it was because they didn't want want to take a chance on one of their students mingling with the "heathens".

[kel varson]

GET OVER THE LEGALISM! Lots of schools have rules. That doesn't breaking them (away from the campus) is sin. Some things they would call sin, but not all of the rules. Example: They wouldn't teach that not wearing a tie is a sin, I'm pretty confident of that. Its a school rule to where a tie though, and if you break the school rule, that would be sin.

But they're not saying every other Christian school has a sinful policy by not making their students where ties. That would be legalistic.

If you don't like the school's rules you won't be going there so don't worry about it. People at BJU are happy to follow the rules. Rules aren't necessarily legalsim. You guys don't seem to understand that. Business have rules, other school's have rules...they aren't being legalistic. Is having stop signs legalistic?

They have renounced their stand on in interracial relationships...get over this. It was wrong, but it is in the past.

[ATrain]

People at BJU are happy to follow the rules.

People there are happy to follow the rules? LOL...Kel, you've made my day