[flamehunter]

Read this today:

According to Bloomberg, 19 of the roughly 100 companies that have filed for bankruptcy during the pandemic have also committed to paying out executive bonuses.

Ain't nothing quite like cashing out before laying off tens of thousands of employees.

So, roughly 81 companies have not done that. That's actually better than I would have expected quite honestly.

[Sly Fox]

Based on the confusion on my earlier post, I was a carrier of the virus to my kids back in February when I was comuting back and forth to Seattle several times a week. I experienced some mild stomach symptoms at the time and thought perhaps I might have immunity as a result. It was wishful thinking.

This month my wife & I got full blown COVID and our kids didn't get sick because of their immunity. It is interesting to note that while Mrs. Sly & I were exposed at the same time, I didn't get symptoms until about four days after her. Perhaps I did have a bit of immmunity but not eough to hold off the virus.

For the record, I have never been tested,. There was no upside to doing so as a self-quarantined guy limited to working virtually under this pandmic. My wife's work required her to get tested in order to get government funds to pay for her to be off. She tested postive along with about 75 others with whom we were exposed.

Let me be clear, if you have it you will know it. It is not like any flu I have ever experienced. Take your worst flu experience and multiply it by ten. After experiencing the symptoms, I have plead with my parents to stay inside. With their medical histories, they likely wouldn't survive but a day or two with this virus. Seeing me so sick seems to have put the fear of God in them even though my Dad has been vocal fighting against masks and church closings.

There is more to our story which is why we will be at a closed graveside service in the coming days for someone very close to me. We need to protect the vulnerable and frankly your parents & gradparents don't even have to be in poor health. This virus is causing healthy people to have heart attacks & strokes at unprecedented rates the past few weeks.

[RubberMallet]

Read this today:

According to Bloomberg, 19 of the roughly 100 companies that have filed for bankruptcy during the pandemic have also committed to paying out executive bonuses.

Ain't nothing quite like cashing out before laying off tens of thousands of employees.

This is effectively a much more expensive looting happening right before our eyes that we'll just ho hum about and go back to screaming about the guy with a net worth of 0 stealing a 500 dollar tv.

[thepostman]

Based on the confusion on my earlier post, I was a carrier of the virus to my kids back in February when I was comuting back and forth to Seattle several times a week. I experienced some mild stomach symptoms at the time and thought perhaps I might have immunity as a result. It was wishful thinking.

This month my wife & I got full blown COVID and our kids didn't get sick because of their immunity. It is interesting to note that while Mrs. Sly & I were exposed at the same time, I didn't get symptoms until about four days after her. Perhaps I did have a bit of immmunity but not eough to hold off the virus.

For the record, I have never been tested,. There was no upside to doing so as a self-quarantined guy limited to working virtually under this pandmic. My wife's work required her to get tested in order to get government funds to pay for her to be off. She tested postive along with about 75 others with whom we were exposed.

Let me be clear, if you have it you will know it. It is not like any flu I have ever experienced. Take your worst flu experience and multiply it by ten. After experiencing the symptoms, I have plead with my parents to stay inside. With their medical histories, they likely wouldn't survive but a day or two with this virus. Seeing me so sick seems to have put the fear of God in them even though my Dad has been vocal fighting against masks and church closings.

There is more to our story which is why we will be at a closed graveside service in the coming days for someone very close to me. We need to protect the vulnerable and frankly your parents & gradparents don't even have to be in poor health. This virus is causing healthy people to have heart attacks & strokes at unprecedented rates the past few weeks.

Thank you so much, Sly, for sharing your story. I am really sorry for your loss. Will pray for you during this time for loss.

[RubberMallet]

Based on the confusion on my earlier post, I was a carrier of the virus to my kids back in February when I was comuting back and forth to Seattle several times a week. I experienced some mild stomach symptoms at the time and thought perhaps I might have immunity as a result. It was wishful thinking.

This month my wife & I got full blown COVID and our kids didn't get sick because of their immunity. It is interesting to note that while Mrs. Sly & I were exposed at the same time, I didn't get symptoms until about four days after her. Perhaps I did have a bit of immmunity but not eough to hold off the virus.

For the record, I have never been tested,. There was no upside to doing so as a self-quarantined guy limited to working virtually under this pandmic. My wife's work required her to get tested in order to get government funds to pay for her to be off. She tested postive along with about 75 others with whom we were exposed.

Let me be clear, if you have it you will know it. It is not like any flu I have ever experienced. Take your worst flu experience and multiply it by ten. After experiencing the symptoms, I have plead with my parents to stay inside. With their medical histories, they likely wouldn't survive but a day or two with this virus. Seeing me so sick seems to have put the fear of God in them even though my Dad has been vocal fighting against masks and church closings.

There is more to our story which is why we will be at a closed graveside service in the coming days for someone very close to me. We need to protect the vulnerable and frankly your parents & gradparents don't even have to be in poor health. This virus is causing healthy people to have heart attacks & strokes at unprecedented rates the past few weeks.

We've seen quite a gambit. We had a friend a month ago get it, she got it bad. never ICU bad but she did go to the emergency room. She was like it was awful. Worse than the flu. We have a friend who just got popped a week ago. she had a runny nose one day and woke up not being able to smell/taste anything the next. the day after, she had a minor cough. Then she lost a symptom each day after that and is relatively back to normal now.

One of my best friends had to be tested to go back to work and he got a positive test and had absolutely 0 symptoms. his wife went on a trip (she is a cancer survivor and they had a week long kayak trip scheduled with other cancer survivors..she got tested and tested negative) so he had the house to himself for a while.

All said the worst thing is a positive test requires lots of phone calls from local health officials asking you all sorts of questions. All tested positive had returned to their respective churches and those churches felt the need to notify EVERYONE that someone tested positive and felt they were just treated like a statistic by everyone and treated like they had leprosy by many.

[Jonathan Carone]

The contact tracing is quite possibly the biggest downside for churches reopening. It's the single biggest reason Northpoint decided they weren't opening til January.

[Purple Haize]

Read this today:

According to Bloomberg, 19 of the roughly 100 companies that have filed for bankruptcy during the pandemic have also committed to paying out executive bonuses.

Ain't nothing quite like cashing out before laying off tens of thousands of employees.

Golden Parachutes. I’d be interested to see what type of bankruptcy they are filing. See what type of lay-off they are going to have of rank and file.
Of course roughly 81 companies aren’t committed to it.

[Jonathan Carone]

They all filed Chapter 11.

Hertz paid executives then laid off 10,000 employees.

[Purple Haize]

They all filed Chapter 11.

Hertz paid executives then laid off 10,000 employees.

That’s business unfortunately. I was downsized after a move that was going to gain our CEO $450 million. The deal fell through, still got downsized, but I sleep better at night knowing I found another job and he was only able to make a deal that got him less than $200 million

[RubberMallet]

The issue is that during a reorg chapter 11, also losing your upper management can send a company into a spiral that results in liquidation. usually those bonuses have longevity stipulations. While it makes no sense to the normal joe baloney like us and still seems like super douchey, paying out 1% of your net asset worth to your upper management in the scheme of things isn't all that terrible.

take a company worth 10million. distributing 180k in bonuses to 10-15 execs to keep them there while you navigate chapter 11 probably seems more understandable to a laymen.

[Purple Haize]

The issue is that during a reorg chapter 11, also losing your upper management can send a company into a spiral that results in liquidation. usually those bonuses have longevity stipulations. While it makes no sense to the normal joe baloney like us and still seems like super douchey, paying out 1% of your net asset worth to your upper management in the scheme of things isn't all that terrible.

take a company worth 10million. distributing 180k in bonuses to 10-15 execs to keep them there while you navigate chapter 11 probably seems more understandable to a laymen.

And it’s not like they are getting the money in the form of bi weekly pay checks or cash like the rest of us. My former CEO getting a $450 million pay out from a company worth Well north of $100 billion.

[RubberMallet]

yeah there are a million ways to justify it economically. but i get it...it certainly doesn't "feel" right.

[Jonathan Carone]

Right. You can absolutely justify it from a business standpoint but it definitely doesn't earn you any favors with the working class.

Here was the commentary where I read about it:

Zoom out: Dropping dimes on the c-suite just before bankruptcy isn’t unprecedented. But as you’re probably sick of hearing, a lot of other things happening now...are. The historic economic crisis currently gripping the U.S. has some analysts questioning the timing of those payouts.

The case for bankruptcy bonuses: Proponents say the idea is to hold on to leaders who can maintain stability through a turbulent time. Ian Keas, principal at executive compensation consulting firm Pearl Meyer, told Bloomberg, “Board members want the people that know the business.”

The case against: When someone spills a jar of M&M's, you don’t let them keep their candy manager job—meaning bankruptcy doesn’t bode well for an exec’s track record. It looks especially bad when the bankrupt company let 10,000 North America employees go in the not-too-distant past, as Hertz did.

It’s also a sneaky legal move

Distributing bonuses just before a bankruptcy filing means that money can’t be used to pay back creditors. They can try challenging, but it’s tricky and expensive.

Perhaps a sign of things to come: A DOJ lawyer told Neiman Marcus it could only pay its CEO and other top execs bonuses if they can prove they increased earnings.

So like most things when lawyers get involved:

Definitely legal.

Ethically gray.

Feels yucky.

[Sly Fox]

We're seriously talking about executive compensation for companies going through bankruptcy right now?

I am not sure how many on here have significant ESG experience. But it should be noted that often these "bonuses" are contractual obligations on behalf of the companies that were either negotiated during better days PRE-COVID or were part of the compensation package used to attract turnaround specialists attempting to save the companies from oblivion. Yes, the optics are awful. But they are generally legal requirements to assure the company can hopefully emerge from Chapter 11.

Now back to our discussion on a virus that is causing otherwise healthy adults to have sudden death from heart attack and stroke.

[Jonathan Carone]

I know you just recovered and the actual virus portion is very personal to you, but there are hundreds of other angles this thing is impacting people as well.

[Purple Haize]

We've seen quite a gambit. We had a friend a month ago get it, she got it bad. never ICU bad but she did go to the emergency room. She was like it was awful. Worse than the flu. We have a friend who just got popped a week ago. she had a runny nose one day and woke up not being able to smell/taste anything the next. the day after, she had a minor cough. Then she lost a symptom each day after that and is relatively back to normal now.

One of my best friends had to be tested to go back to work and he got a positive test and had absolutely 0 symptoms. his wife went on a trip (she is a cancer survivor and they had a week long kayak trip scheduled with other cancer survivors..she got tested and tested negative) so he had the house to himself for a while.

All said the worst thing is a positive test requires lots of phone calls from local health officials asking you all sorts of questions. All tested positive had returned to their respective churches and those churches felt the need to notify EVERYONE that someone tested positive and felt they were just treated like a statistic by everyone and treated like they had leprosy by many.

Our neighbor is dying. He’s rebounded from cancer twice but doesn’t look like it will happen this time. He’s on a ventilator. His daughter says he’s been tested for COVID several times and the last test came back positive (after he’s been in icu)
And this is what I hate and breaks my heart and I’ve seen too much of...he’s going to die alone. His wife can only see him briefly if at all. She’s self quarantined so that Centra won’t dent her access to her dying husband. His children cannot visit either. I’ve had friends whose parents and loved ones who have had strokes and hear attacks not be able to spend time with their loved ones for fear of COVID. People are having to put off testing and procedures for several weeks due to protocols and for a couple I ran into over vacation it’s got a chance to be too late.
Here are the questions I would like to see asked:

1- What now constitutes a Positive Test
2- When we see new cases are they actually new cases or anti bodies signifying that there might have been the virus present?
3- Can we separate fatalities into those WITH and FROM? My neighbor is going to be in the WITH category. How is that helpful in determining the proper course of action?
4- Mask protocol. Battling memes don’t help. How long and how close do I have to be exposed to someone who is contagious to catch the Rona
5 - Whats the end game? What is the standard we are shooting for to repeal the mask and social edicts?
6 - How virulent is the Rona in comparison to other virus’ we have dealt with? Worse than Spanish flu? The same as normal flu?

IMVHO, this is where the Trump Administration could really step up and just lay out an unemotional report on these things. There have been a lot of seemingly conflicting statements from Government Agencies. On the other hand based on the way things that have been said have been misreported that could never happen.
And that’s what ticks me off

[JK37]

Very good post, PH.

How far do you realistically think an unemotional report would get when it’s everyone’s emotions that are currently running amok?

I’ve given up hope that rational thought will return to the fore.

[Jonathan Carone]

For your question #6 about masking, I thought this four minute video was pretty good. And it includes a phrase you will love.

[Purple Haize]

Very good post, PH.

How far do you realistically think an unemotional report would get when it’s everyone’s emotions that are currently running amok?

I’ve given up hope that rational thought will return to the fore.

Thank you.
But I think those are some pretty good non-partisan questions to ask. I think they are good questions to ask so that we can make rational decisions moving forward.
But the loathing for Trump will never allow that to happen

[Purple Haize]

For your question #6 about masking, I thought this four minute video was pretty good. And it includes a phrase you will love.

He is right that the amount of virus you are exposed to determines your risk level. Walking through Wal Mart to do my shopping doesn’t rise to that level
Asymptomatic spread is very dubious at best. Because again, it goes back to length and quantity of exposure
He starts on the assumption that everyone is wearing a mask properly which is far from the case. Surgical masks in the operating suite have an entire protocol. Pulling a surgical out of your pocket that you’ve worn for the last week doesn’t really fit that protocol.
His comments about healthcare workers is also inaccurate. If it were true we would have had a much larger death toll among providers. That just didn’t happen
He seems to think social distancing is better than masking. Which is true.
His cruise ship story left out a few key facts. Of the 219 passengers only 6 needed medical care. I believe it ran the gambit for those 6 but I don’t think any of them were put on a ventilator and I’m not certain any of them died.

This to me is just someone who wants to seem relevant and get a butt ton of clicks

[Jonathan Carone]

This is why an unbiased report you’re talking about is useless. You asked a question, I provided an answer from a Stanford Med educated doctor with ten years of experience as a hospitalist but his view doesn’t line up with tours so you write five paragraphs on why he’s wrong. What good would an unbiased report do when everyone thinks they’re smarter than the experts?

[Purple Haize]

This is why an unbiased report you’re talking about is useless. You asked a question, I provided an answer from a Stanford Med educated doctor with ten years of experience as a hospitalist but his view doesn’t line up with tours so you write five paragraphs on why he’s wrong. What good would an unbiased report do when everyone thinks they’re smarter than the experts?

Because he’s not an unbiased reviewer.
I also was pointing out factual errors and omissions on his part the biggest IMVHO was the one on the ship to Antarctica. If he wanted to be fair and balanced why didn’t he talk about the number who presented with symptoms or were hospitalized or died ? He instead just said “tested positive”. See my #1

https://www.businessinsider.com/antarct ... eak-2020-4

For bonus points take a look at his comments on HCQ

I also pointed out where he was right. There a NEJM article and clarification about the effectiveness or lack thereof of masks.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

Clarification
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836
-wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection
-We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods.

How does my shopping trip to Wal mart fit this? The rules and regulations make absolutely no logical sense. You say I reject it because it doesn’t fit my narrative. I reject and question it because on examination there are a lot of gaps in it. He basically says “pity those who don’t wear a mask because we are smarter than they are. Just don’t tell them”. I’m not swayed by the emotional “I wear a mask because I care” arguments at this point.

[Jonathan Carone]

You want hard data and science on something that’s only been around for seven months.

You require guidance to specific situations of your life based on that hard data.

That’s not how things work when you’re leading a country through a pandemic. Our experts are learning new things every day and have to give general directions to cover the entire country.

Wear a mask when indoors and unable to social distance. Your trip to Walmart is included in that because you can’t guarantee you’re 6-10 feet away from everyone you come in contact with. That’s why Walmart now requires face coverings.

When outdoors, maintain social distance when possible but, more often than not, don’t worry about a mask. The airflow outdoors is much better than inside.

It’s not that hard.

What this comes down to is this idea of never trusting authority - especially the government - because someone always has something to gain and therefore can’t be trusted. Even when it costs you nothing but slight comfort while in Walmart, you can’t simply be a good neighbor and follow the experts’ guidance. You call that emotional.

[Purple Haize]

Who are “our” experts? I just posted an article from experts saying that masks outside a surgical environment are ineffective. You say my trip to Wal Mart doesn’t count? Show me where I’m in sustained contact within 6 feet of an individual for an extended period of time >15 minutes.
Further, I’m open to seeing studies that show masks work. I’m not seeing any. What I am seeing is a lot of “better than nothing....probably “. Back to masks, do people change their surgical masks everytime they are done with them? No. So there goes their effectiveness. What about cloth masks
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... re_workers

Overall efficacy of masks?
https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

These are older studies but it’s not like there’s been a big mask research arm And it’s not like they could have been politicized. The guy in the video cites a study with gerbils or something

Here is what I do know. If no one coughs on me, sneezes on me or swaps bodily fluids with me I’m in good shape. Standing 6’ a part will also help if someone is a spit talker or slobber box. If I’m working within close confines of the same people for extended period of time then wearing a mask I change at frequent intervals will help.

The rest? Yes, based on emotion

[Jonathan Carone]

Fauci:

"...Physical distancing is the most important, but practically when you're living your life and trying to open up the country. You are going to come into contact with people. And for that reason, we know that masks are really important. And we should be using them. Everyone."

Birx:

"100 percent of the American population in those hot zones, in the red areas of the country should be wearing masks all of the time and social distancing,"

"We know that masks work. We think they not only work for preventing infections of others, there's even some information now, early data, that suggests masks may actually protect you from getting infected yourself."

Adams:

"We're trying to correct that messaging, Margaret, but it's very hard to do," he said, adding that his previous comments that masks were not effective in preventing the spread of the virus was "because everything we knew about coronaviruses before that point told us that people were not likely to spread when they were asymptomatic."

"The primary reason was because that's what the science said and I want the American people to understand we follow the science and when we learn more our recommendations change, but it is hard when people are continuing to talk about things from three, four months ago," he said.

Trump:

"Hey, Dr. (Anthony) Fauci said 'don't wear a mask'; our Surgeon General — terrific guy — said don't wear a mask. Everybody was saying don't wear a mask, all of a sudden, everybody's got to wear a mask, and as you know, masks cause problems too. With that being said, I'm a believer in masks. I think masks are good," he continued.