Anything and everything about Liberty Flames football. Your comments on games, recruiting and the direction of the program as we move into new era.

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#603062
A Sea of Red did a great series covering the top 50 players in program history.

Here is the top 10

https://www.aseaofred.com/ranking-the-t ... time-10-1/

10. Jacob Hagen
9. Dre Barnes
8. Josh Woodrum
7. Buckshot Calvert
6. Mickey Paige
5. Wayne Haddix
4. Mike Brown
3. Antonio Gandy-Golden
2. Eric Green
1. Rashad Jennings

What are your thoughts? Who is too high? Who is too low? Is there anybody outside of the top 10 that you think should be there??
#603067
Any list that puts Josh Woodrum in the top 10 over Antwan Chiles is deeply flawed. Personally, I wouldn't even put Woodrum in the top 20. Also Eric Green, was a much better player than Rashad Jennings. This is the only part of the top 50 list I have looked at, because the Position Top 10's were so far off, I didn't want to waste my time. Obviously not many people have seen the majority of these players play, and are just going off of stat sheets. While the effort is appreciated, the results are disappointing. My .02
#603073
flameshaw wrote: June 29th, 2020, 8:54 am Any list that puts Josh Woodrum in the top 10 over Antwan Chiles is deeply flawed. Personally, I wouldn't even put Woodrum in the top 20. Also Eric Green, was a much better player than Rashad Jennings. This is the only part of the top 50 list I have looked at, because the Position Top 10's were so far off, I didn't want to waste my time. Obviously not many people have seen the majority of these players play, and are just going off of stat sheets. While the effort is appreciated, the results are disappointing. My .02
Eric Green had the potential to be the better player simply due to his athletic talent but did very little until his senior year when Sam came in and made him a focal point and really pushed him. ( quoted from Green himself) I would argue he is rated way too high for his over all career production.
#603074
As is so often the case with lists like this, the debate comes down to criteria. Are we judging based on talent and ability, on stats, on realized potential, or what? Probably some combo of all, but to what extent does each carry? And especially when considering talent, whose the judge and did they actually see the subject compete?
flameshaw, flamehunter liked this
#603079
tyndal23 wrote: June 29th, 2020, 9:33 am
flameshaw wrote: June 29th, 2020, 8:54 am Any list that puts Josh Woodrum in the top 10 over Antwan Chiles is deeply flawed. Personally, I wouldn't even put Woodrum in the top 20. Also Eric Green, was a much better player than Rashad Jennings. This is the only part of the top 50 list I have looked at, because the Position Top 10's were so far off, I didn't want to waste my time. Obviously not many people have seen the majority of these players play, and are just going off of stat sheets. While the effort is appreciated, the results are disappointing. My .02
Eric Green had the potential to be the better player simply due to his athletic talent but did very little until his senior year when Sam came in and made him a focal point and really pushed him. ( quoted from Green himself) I would argue he is rated way too high for his over all career production.
Regardless of the time frame, Eric Green was still good enough to be a 1st round NFL draft pick.
You do realize that athletes say all kinds of things based on the situation they may find themselves in? Think Bull Durham for one example.
Finally, I will say that as an analogy, Peter Aluma was better his freshman and sophomore years than he was his final two. Doesn't change the fact that he is the best MBB player that has ever been on the mountain IMHO.
That is one of the reasons that these list are pretty silly. I guess they are good for some discussion, but that is about it. What are the parameters? Did they have to play at LU for 4 years, one year? Could they be a transfer, be great for their whole career, one year, two years? Vince Redd was arguably the best LB at LU, but he only played one or two years? What was the record of the team? Was the competition equal? One could go on forever with the what ifs. My major concern, is that there is no viable way to compare players for LU. Unlike other schools with a robust film/documented history, etc.
There is a good reason I didn't look at the top 40, wish I hadn't looked at the top 10.
Some people enjoy this kinda stuff for some reason. In the big scheme of things, it means nothing. Enjoy. Rant over.
#603081
If we are talking talent and ability, how does Sam Gado not make the top 10? And I would rank Eric Green as #1.
#603087
Who gave Liberty the most production during their time here?

Does the list make sense with that question?

Did LU get more out of Rashad or Green?

More out of Buckshot or Woodrum?

More out of Brown or AGG?

I think the list is pretty solid with that question in mind. It weighs heavier for players with sustained success rather than single years of glory.

A list of the top 10 single season performances would be very different and pretty entertaining to read as well.
#603089
Cider Jim wrote: June 29th, 2020, 10:35 am If we are talking talent and ability, how does Sam Gado not make the top 10? And I would rank Eric Green as #1.
Because Dre Barnes > Sam Gado in his LU career. Dre got hurt or else he too would have been in the nfl. That guy was electric
#603091
flameshaw wrote: June 29th, 2020, 10:21 am
tyndal23 wrote: June 29th, 2020, 9:33 am
flameshaw wrote: June 29th, 2020, 8:54 am Any list that puts Josh Woodrum in the top 10 over Antwan Chiles is deeply flawed. Personally, I wouldn't even put Woodrum in the top 20. Also Eric Green, was a much better player than Rashad Jennings. This is the only part of the top 50 list I have looked at, because the Position Top 10's were so far off, I didn't want to waste my time. Obviously not many people have seen the majority of these players play, and are just going off of stat sheets. While the effort is appreciated, the results are disappointing. My .02
Eric Green had the potential to be the better player simply due to his athletic talent but did very little until his senior year when Sam came in and made him a focal point and really pushed him. ( quoted from Green himself) I would argue he is rated way too high for his over all career production.
Regardless of the time frame, Eric Green was still good enough to be a 1st round NFL draft pick.
You do realize that athletes say all kinds of things based on the situation they may find themselves in? Think Bull Durham for one example.
Finally, I will say that as an analogy, Peter Aluma was better his freshman and sophomore years than he was his final two. Doesn't change the fact that he is the best MBB player that has ever been on the mountain IMHO.
That is one of the reasons that these list are pretty silly. I guess they are good for some discussion, but that is about it. What are the parameters? Did they have to play at LU for 4 years, one year? Could they be a transfer, be great for their whole career, one year, two years? Vince Redd was arguably the best LB at LU, but he only played one or two years? What was the record of the team? Was the competition equal? One could go on forever with the what ifs. My major concern, is that there is no viable way to compare players for LU. Unlike other schools with a robust film/documented history, etc.
There is a good reason I didn't look at the top 40, wish I hadn't looked at the top 10.
Some people enjoy this kinda stuff for some reason. In the big scheme of things, it means nothing. Enjoy. Rant over.
He said it in his Hall Of Fame acceptance - not as a player. He would have gone un drafted if it weren’t for his SR year. ( I was one of 2 Freshman dB scrubs that took him On 2 on 1 for 10 minutes every practice down on one end of the field in front of NFL scouts Sam had come in ). NFL often takes body types over College production - a lot of great players never get a shot at NFL due to measurable’s and a lot of mediocre college players get a shot based on measurable’s. Eric had both for 1 year and I agree he is probably the best athlete - but not even close in Production to what he could have been In right system and getting pushed and polished for 4 years.
#603105
tyndal23 wrote: June 29th, 2020, 12:28 pm
flameshaw wrote: June 29th, 2020, 10:21 am
tyndal23 wrote: June 29th, 2020, 9:33 am

Eric Green had the potential to be the better player simply due to his athletic talent but did very little until his senior year when Sam came in and made him a focal point and really pushed him. ( quoted from Green himself) I would argue he is rated way too high for his over all career production.
Regardless of the time frame, Eric Green was still good enough to be a 1st round NFL draft pick.
You do realize that athletes say all kinds of things based on the situation they may find themselves in? Think Bull Durham for one example.
Finally, I will say that as an analogy, Peter Aluma was better his freshman and sophomore years than he was his final two. Doesn't change the fact that he is the best MBB player that has ever been on the mountain IMHO.
That is one of the reasons that these list are pretty silly. I guess they are good for some discussion, but that is about it. What are the parameters? Did they have to play at LU for 4 years, one year? Could they be a transfer, be great for their whole career, one year, two years? Vince Redd was arguably the best LB at LU, but he only played one or two years? What was the record of the team? Was the competition equal? One could go on forever with the what ifs. My major concern, is that there is no viable way to compare players for LU. Unlike other schools with a robust film/documented history, etc.
There is a good reason I didn't look at the top 40, wish I hadn't looked at the top 10.
Some people enjoy this kinda stuff for some reason. In the big scheme of things, it means nothing. Enjoy. Rant over.
He said it in his Hall Of Fame acceptance - not as a player. He would have gone un drafted if it weren’t for his SR year. ( I was one of 2 Freshman dB scrubs that took him On 2 on 1 for 10 minutes every practice down on one end of the field in front of NFL scouts Sam had come in ). NFL often takes body types over College production - a lot of great players never get a shot at NFL due to measurable’s and a lot of mediocre college players get a shot based on measurable’s. Eric had both for 1 year and I agree he is probably the best athlete - but not even close in Production to what he could have been In right system and getting pushed and polished for 4 years.
"Coached up" for 4 years ?
#603107
The simple fact that Green was the only first round draft pick from Liberty makes him #1 in my opinion. He was also one of the NFL's best TE's for a brief period of time. Attitude and drugs obviously hampered his career, but he was super fast and reliable in Tecmo Super Bowl, even with Bubby Brister throwing to him!
#603130
I would tend to put Eric up at #1 as well. I also think Antwan should be further up the chart. One guy I would have added somewhere was Trey Sartin. That was one large man. These lists are tough to do, particularly, with a program like Liberty's.
LUOrange liked this
#603132
What is fun about these lists is hearing from people who have been around Liberty longer than I have. I arrived on campus in 2003 so my knowledge of time before that is limited to the stat book and word of mouth. Really interesting reading some of your takes on this.
#603141
Thank you everyone for your comments on the list.

When I set out to do it, I didn't realize how much time it would consume, but it was a lot of fun and I learned a lot about many of these players I never saw play. Anytime you put together lists like these, there will be plenty of opinions and people that disagree. Some people value certain things more than others. I sought advice from several people including former players and coaches while compiling it.

As I began putting this together, it became very difficult to decide where to rank players. How do you compare an offensive lineman to a corner? What about a running back to a defensive tackle? What about an NAIA player to a Division I player?

The Eric Green/Rashad Jennings debate for #1 was an interesting one. I spent more time on that one ranking than any other and I went back and forth several times. At the end of the day, I gave the nod to Rashad because of his impact over the course of 3 seasons. Green had a great career at Liberty and his NFL career is remarkable, but he only had one season at the level Rashad had 3 times. That doesn't mean Green didn't have a better season as a senior than any of Rashad's, but over the course of their individual careers, I believe Rashad had a greater impact.
#603144
You really can't go wrong with either Green or Jennings at #1 IMO. I didn't get to see EG in his Liberty days like I did Rashad, but I did get to see him making plays on the NFL on NBC on some Sundays growing up...and I remember watching Rashad as a high schooler when he and Chris Rocco and PK were leading LCA to dominating state championship runs (and running my alma mater Hargrave off the field from 2002 on) and knew he had a chance to be something special.

Outstanding series Jon. You and the boys at ASOR have taken things to a whole other level over the years.

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