[Purple Haize]

Most governors are weak. Some are very weak. See Northam, Ralph, Virginia

So? That’s a States populations responsible to handle it. Not the US Military.

[JK37]

When the police cannot protect the public, it's time to call in the troops. Looting and rioting is criminal.

Hard to protect and serve when you’re the aggressor.

Do you believe all of them are aggressors? A majority? A few?

Reminds me of a statistic about kidnappings I heard awhile ago: the number of them is way down, it just doesn’t feel like it because we hear about the few so much more often.

Awareness is good. There are issues to be dealt with. But let’s not vilify the masses for the sins of the few.

[Purple Haize]

When the police cannot protect the public, it's time to call in the troops. Looting and rioting is criminal.

Hard to protect and serve when you’re the aggressor.

Do you believe all of them are aggressors? A majority? A few?

Reminds me of a statistic about kidnappings I heard awhile ago: the number of them is way down, it just doesn’t feel like it because we hear about the few so much more often.

Awareness is good. There are issues to be dealt with. But let’s not vilify the masses for the sins of the few.

This is why I’m opposed to the Military coming in. They will be the aggressors. That’s their job. That’s what they are the best in the world at. It shouldn’t be turned on us citizens

[Jonathan Carone]

When the police cannot protect the public, it's time to call in the troops. Looting and rioting is criminal.

Hard to protect and serve when you’re the aggressor.

Do you believe all of them are aggressors? A majority? A few?

Reminds me of a statistic about kidnappings I heard awhile ago: the number of them is way down, it just doesn’t feel like it because we hear about the few so much more often.

Awareness is good. There are issues to be dealt with. But let’s not vilify the masses for the sins of the few.

I think it’s more than a few but not the majority. I’ve been disgusted by the police aggression across the country over the last week.

The difference in community based policing vs military based policing have been incredibly eye opening.

[JK37]

Where is the line of aggression? Is there some/any degree of aggression that is a justified response?

Where does the national Guard fit in that spectrum?

[Purple Haize]

Hard to protect and serve when you’re the aggressor.

Do you believe all of them are aggressors? A majority? A few?

Reminds me of a statistic about kidnappings I heard awhile ago: the number of them is way down, it just doesn’t feel like it because we hear about the few so much more often.

Awareness is good. There are issues to be dealt with. But let’s not vilify the masses for the sins of the few.

I think it’s more than a few but not the majority. I’ve been disgusted by the police aggression across the country over the last week.

The difference in community based policing vs military based policing have been incredibly eye opening.

Lots more instances of looting and rioting than aggressive policing. What is great is that the officers who are accused of killing George Floyd had their charges upgraded. That means the Prosecutors feel pretty strongly about conviction at that higher charge. It also means they will be held accountable. Unlike the people who killed the husband and wife store keepers with 2 x 4’s. Or the person who came up behind a Police Officer and shot him in the head. Or the retired police officer shot at a Pawn shop.
Trump got panned for it. But when the looting does start the shooting starts. On both sides

[Jonathan Carone]

There has been looting and rioting from both progressive and alt-right groups. That cannot be denied. Anyone who does is trying to push an agenda.

I’m not comfortable saying there have been “lots” more of those compared to police aggressions at this point. There have likely been more, but the amount of instances where police have unnecessarily used force and aggression against people who were peacefully protesting is appalling. The way they’ve attacked the media is a something I never thought I’d see in the United States.

And because someone’s going to ask about it - yes, the people who are rioting and being violent are appalling as well. That said, I hold law enforcement to a higher standard than someone on the street. It doesn’t justify or condone the person on the street doing something wrong, but I have a bigger issue with those who have signed up to protect and serve aggressively arresting, macing, and using violence towards peaceful protestors.

In areas where law enforcement have respected the protestors and worked with them to ensure a peaceful expression of anger and hurt, the rioting and looting has been minimal. The protestors at these events have actually helped law enforcement keep things peaceful. The video of an activist in Baltimore dragging a white protestor who shot fireworks at police was hilarious. The videos of police officers hugging or standing arm in arm with the black community has been beautiful. Flint’s sheriff walking with protestors was incredible. Chattanooga’s chief telling cops who think like those in Minneapolis to turn in their badge was great.

[Jonathan Carone]

Where is the line of aggression? Is there some/any degree of aggression that is a justified response?

Where does the national Guard fit in that spectrum?

It’s certainly not shooting rubber bullets at citizens on their front porch.

It’s not slashing tires, breaking windows, and then hitting people with a stun gun before pulling them out of a car.

It’s not shooting tear gas into a car with a pregnant woman in it.

It’s definitely not arresting store owners who flagged you down to help protect their store because you won’t take the time to listen that they’re the ones asking you for help.

It’s not ripping up water bottles and medical supplies at a medic tent that the department approved.

It’s not punching cameras from the media.

We trust the police to serve and protect us. And the majority of them do that and do it really well.

This last week has shown a light - for me especially - on how legitimate claims of police brutality are and the unchecked power of law enforcement in some areas. Even if the number of overly aggressive militant police forces is only 20%, that’s still 20% too high.

[Purple Haize]

I’ve seen the light of police brutality since I was 16. You sound like you want police officers to issue suggestions and not orders.

[Jonathan Carone]

I’ve seen the light of police brutality since I was 16. You sound like you want police officers to issue suggestions and not orders.

I must’ve been naive to it. I never realized it was as bad as it’s been the last week.

I understand aggression to match aggression. Sometimes it’s required. Tonight in DC is probably one of those times. I just don’t think aggression being your first move is the way to operate when people are already protesting police brutality. It’s kinda like when people are already mad at a university president for being a jerk and he tweets something insensitive. It escalates things much further than they had to be escalated.

[Purple Haize]

Remember the majority of those incidents you see on TV had things that led up to them. But police cross the line it’s a fact. But if you break it down into percentages, it’s not as wide spread as you believe
Police are still trained to take a Dominant posture. It’s part of the job. From the uniforms to the sunglasses to everything. There are times that certain officers will want to announce their presence with too much authority. It’s a fine line that is walked by under paid and over vilified people. If an officer tells you to move you better have a good reason if you don’t or be ready to tangle. If you don’t disperse get ready for smoke and rubber bullets. And if you go after one, be ready to tangle with them all
The bottom line is people are making judgement calls on officers during heightened moments. When tensions pique all sorts of things can go sideways. And on the whole officers deal with it better than most. look at th MI protests. Look at all the people who get in their faces and they take it. But once they are loosed, you can’t put it back in the bottle with the flick of a switch

[TH Spangler]

There has been looting and rioting from both progressive and alt-right groups. That cannot be denied. Anyone who does is trying to push an agenda.

I’m not comfortable saying there have been “lots” more of those compared to police aggressions at this point. There have likely been more, but the amount of instances where police have unnecessarily used force and aggression against people who were peacefully protesting is appalling. The way they’ve attacked the media is a something I never thought I’d see in the United States.

And because someone’s going to ask about it - yes, the people who are rioting and being violent are appalling as well. That said, I hold law enforcement to a higher standard than someone on the street. It doesn’t justify or condone the person on the street doing something wrong, but I have a bigger issue with those who have signed up to protect and serve aggressively arresting, macing, and using violence towards peaceful protestors.

In areas where law enforcement have respected the protestors and worked with them to ensure a peaceful expression of anger and hurt, the rioting and looting has been minimal. The protestors at these events have actually helped law enforcement keep things peaceful. The video of an activist in Baltimore dragging a white protestor who shot fireworks at police was hilarious. The videos of police officers hugging or standing arm in arm with the black community has been beautiful. Flint’s sheriff walking with protestors was incredible. Chattanooga’s chief telling cops who think like those in Minneapolis to turn in their badge was great.

Wow .. I'm glad I'm not a demacrat trying to justify what's going on in the streets.

Conservative independents and Republicans think they should lock up the policemen that killed the gentleman. They should also fire who ever was in charge and saw all the complaints in the officers file and didn't fire him before he killed someone.

Biden trying to turn antifa and looter gatherings into Biden rallies is really going to hurt his chances of beating Trump.

[Jonathan Carone]

Remember the majority of those incidents you see on TV had things that led up to them. But police cross the line it’s a fact. But if you break it down into percentages, it’s not as wide spread as you believe

I'm actually not watching much tv. Things are happening at such a local level that the national news can't cover it well. Plus we all know the spin from each of those.

We're living in a world where everyone has a camera. There's usually 2-3 perspectives of the same incident on social. The "things that led up to them" line doesn't hold as much ground this time around.

Will Smith had a quote after George Floyd that said "racism isn't getting worse, it's just getting filmed." Someone mentioned the same thing about kidnappings earlier in the thread. I think the same is likely true with police brutality. It might not be getting worse, it's just getting exposed. I'm definitely getting exposed to it in a way I have never seen before.

Police are still trained to take a Dominant posture. It’s part of the job. From the uniforms to the sunglasses to everything. There are times that certain officers will want to announce their presence with too much authority. It’s a fine line that is walked by under paid and over vilified people.

I think this comes down to how you view the police and law enforcement. I don't see them as an organization that needs to have a dominant posture. The military? Absolutely. Federal agencies? Sure. The local police? No. They're not supposed to be dominating their citizens. They're there to protect and serve them.

Whether in ministry, business, athletics, or anything else, I've always believed building relationships and treating people fairly is the way to go. It's how you have the most success. As we watch these riots across the country, we see areas like Flint and Newark and Trenton who have had hugely troubled pasts having success now because of community based policing. Here in Winston we've had five straight days of peaceful protests because of the relationship between law enforcement and the community. In these communities they're not showing up in riot gear with swat tanks ready for a fight. They see their role as one of support and safety, not aggression and dominance.

Like anything else, there are multiple ways to approach things.

[Purple Haize]

Perhaps I didn’t make my point well. I’m all for community based policing methods. That’s why I posted the video I did earlier. They are trained to attempt to de escalate any situation first, it’s what you saw the LU Police Officer do this past week. But they are also trained to dominate a situation when it’s called for. Because believe it or not, there are actually people out there who don’t listen to authority and wish harm on others. At the end of the day Officers have to display authority. That gives some people visceral reactions. You seem to be saying there is no place for Police to use physical methods. I’m certainly not saying it should be the go to approach. But when these videos come out, I just going to default to the fact that the de escalating techniques failed and we are watching the end of the confrontation, which will generally be violent.

[Jonathan Carone]

I've said in a few places that I understand aggression has to be met with aggression. I know it has to be used at times because of the people who are trying to cause issues.

What I disagree with is the front line showing up in full riot gear with the tank ready to go. Like you said - that gives people visceral reaction. That takes what was peaceful and immediately ratchets the tensions up even more.

Here's a quote from the former Camden Police Chief that explains my thinking:

“There’s this failed mindset of ‘if we show force, immediately we will deter criminal activity or unruly activity’ and show me where that has worked,” said Scott Thomson, the former chief of police in Camden, New Jersey. “That's the primal response,” he said.

“The adrenaline starts to pump, the temperature in the room is rising, and you want to go one step higher. But what we need to know as professionals is that there are times, if we go one step higher, we are forcing them to go one step higher.”

From the same article:

There’s 50 years of research on violence at protests, dating back to the three federal commissions formed between 1967 and 1970. All three concluded that when police escalate force—using weapons, tear gas, mass arrests and other tools to make protesters do what the police want—those efforts can often go wrong, creating the very violence that force was meant to prevent. For example, the Kerner Commission, which was formed in 1967 to specifically investigate urban riots, found that police action was pivotal in starting half of the 24 riots the commission studied in detail. It recommended that police eliminate “abrasive policing tactics” and that cities establish fair ways to address complaints against police.

Source

The entire article is very fair to both sides of the argument. It explains different methods and allows law enforcement to give their opinion why certain ones don't work.

At the end of the day, we're both going to be able to find data and expert quotes to support each of our opinions. Like most things outside of sports, you and I view the world totally different. That's not to say either of us is more wrong than the other. It's just different.

[JK37]

Whether in ministry, business, athletics, or anything else, I've always believed building relationships and treating people fairly is the way to go. It's how you have the most success.

Agreed. The sticky part with Police work - unlike those careers you listed - is that when pursuit is unsuccessful, the result can be a body bag.

To what extent do police men and women have the right to protect themselves in their responsibility to protect others?

De-escalation vs. appearance of escalation (tanks, riot gear) makes a lot of sense. There must be a line somewhere that when crossed renders those tools necessary. I’m sure some police show that force way too early.

[Jonathan Carone]

They have every right to protect themselves. My argument would be that many police forces have spent money on getting swat and military equipment instead of community relationships. They've doubled down on military style force and that type of training. I'm sure some would argue that's the only way to do things in some communities. I'm a little too idealistic to believe that.

[LUAlum1215]

Use of force is never the goal of law enforcement, but is a necessary tool that has to be utilized. What people don’t understand is that UoF is never pretty and never will be. That is not a free card to use excessive force, but most people have a hard time understanding that. As far as the riot control tactics displayed in the media, from my perspective some of them have been questionable to say the least but without knowing what led up to those UoF it’s impossible to say whether all were excessive or not. Remember, justified does not always mean pretty nor does ugly always mean excessive.

The reason for the riot gear and “tanks” on the front lines is intel. Whether that be intel collected of threats made or intel from what has already happened. It may look intimidating and may scare or frustrate people, but those guys are not wearing it because it’s comfortable or they want to look cool I can assure you of that. To pigtail off of that, the reason for spending money on such equipment is because it is necessary. Not just for riots, but for major events like the Hollywood bank robbery shootout. LAPD was severely under prepared and under equipped for that and paid handsomely. The rest of the nation learned from it and prepared themselves. Is that equipment necessary for every truly peaceful protest? No. But how many peaceful protests have turned violent in a moments notice? If you’ve been paying any attention to the lynchburg news earlier this week you know the answer to that. Police officers are taught to use the least level of force necessary to effect an arrest, but they don’t “fight fair” so to speak. If someone wants to fist fight a cop he’s going to use an escalated level of force such as OC spray. This isn’t about being a good boxer, it’s about going home safe for ALL involved. All levels of force are dictated by suspects/offenders and their level of compliance or non-compliance. When cops abuse that and use excessive force for any reason they should be fired and charged immediately. But just because force is ugly doesn’t mean it’s not justified.

[Jonathan Carone]

All levels of force are dictated by suspects/offenders and their level of compliance or non-compliance. When cops abuse that and use excessive force for any reason they should be fired and charged immediately. But just because force is ugly doesn’t mean it’s not justified.

A lot of guys need to be fired and charged this week then. (Language warning)

[LUAlum1215]

All levels of force are dictated by suspects/offenders and their level of compliance or non-compliance. When cops abuse that and use excessive force for any reason they should be fired and charged immediately. But just because force is ugly doesn’t mean it’s not justified.

A lot of guys need to be fired and charged this week then. (Language warning)

Yea. You’re not wrong. A lot of those were what I would called excessive, but those large crowds being shot at with CS gas... how many times before the video started were they told to disperse? How many times did the protestors say we’re not leaving regardless? None of us know so we can’t say for sure if it was justified or not. When an officer gives a lawful command that is not complied with he not only has lawful standing to take action to enforce that command but he is duty bound to do so. Please don’t think I’m arguing for any excuse for excessive force, I just want to open peoples eyes to the fact that sometimes CS gas or less lethal projectiles are necessary to gain compliance from a non-compliant group.

[Jonathan Carone]

And I'm not arguing they're not needed. As I've mentioned before, aggression sometimes has to be met with aggression.

But the dude running in from left field to tackle a guy? The horse purposefully knocking a woman down? Pepper spraying people once they're already on the ground and are complying? These videos are just some of the compilations going around. There are one-off videos that are even worse.

And - before someone can jump in with a both sides argument - I know civilians have done terrible things this week too. I'm not denying that has happened. But it doesn't justify some of the things police are doing to protesters.

[TH Spangler]

You know I believe the demacrats play the race card all the way to Nov. It's heartbreaking they would do that to our country. Power means more to them than anything else. Last election they called me deplorable. Now this. No mater who wins in Nov the country will be a mess. The streets will become more unsafe. The conventions will be a nightmare.

[ballcoach15]

I wish there was a way to abolish the Democratic Party.

[Purple Haize]

They have every right to protect themselves. My argument would be that many police forces have spent money on getting swat and military equipment instead of community relationships. They've doubled down on military style force and that type of training. I'm sure some would argue that's the only way to do things in some communities. I'm a little too idealistic to believe that.

That will pass with age. And by asking yourself How would you handle the situation and what would you do if it didn’t turn out the way you envisioned?

[Jonathan Carone]

I’ve actually gotten more idealistic as I’ve gotten older.