[ALUmnus]

The science behind it is pretty solid.

Until it isn't, right?

[Purple Haize]

The science behind it is pretty solid.

Until it isn't, right?

Good piece on it
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868614/

However, psychologically

https://www.businessinsider.com/face-ma ... tal-health

[Jonathan Carone]

The science behind it is pretty solid.

Until it isn't, right?

Good piece on it
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868614/

However, psychologically

https://www.businessinsider.com/face-ma ... tal-health

On the flip side, you've got the Berkeley study that says if 80% of the population wore masks, we'd all but eliminate the spread.

There's data on both sides at this point.

My motivations are if it could help keep someone from getting sick or it makes the people I'm around more comfortable, I'm willing to wear it. It's a low barrier to outwardly show people I don't know that I care about them. You can call that virtue signaling if you'd like, but I don't see it that way.

[Purple Haize]

That’s absolutely fine. As I’ve stated ad nauseum I don’t care if a person wears one or not. If there’s a business that I want to frequent that requires one, then I’ll wear one.

From Berkeley

https://komonews.com/news/consumer/cdc- ... oronavirus

[rhezick]

Until it isn't, right?

Good piece on it
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868614/

However, psychologically

https://www.businessinsider.com/face-ma ... tal-health

On the flip side, you've got the Berkeley study that says if 80% of the population wore masks, we'd all but eliminate the spread.

There's data on both sides at this point.

My motivations are if it could help keep someone from getting sick or it makes the people I'm around more comfortable, I'm willing to wear it. It's a low barrier to outwardly show people I don't know that I care about them. You can call that virtue signaling if you'd like, but I don't see it that way.

So I have this logical hurdle I'm facing that maybe I can get some help with. I mean this genuinely, without malice so I thought I'd put this out there. I read about so many people, be it on social media or news articles, make the following argument:

"The government is trampling on my individual rights by (telling me to wear a mask) despite the fact that it could save another life (the elderly, the sick, etc).

Isn't that the argument from those who are pro-choice?

"The government is trampling on my individual rights by (telling me I can't get an abortion) despite the fact that it could save another life (babies)."

I have no intent of turning this conversation away from the intended thread, and I respect whatever your position on is, but personally being pro-life I've honestly been struggling with doing anything other than supporting mask mandates and anything else that is "for the common good/health" because of the need to be argumentatively consistent. I genuinely struggle mentally to separate the two, and feel like in both situations, one uses "rights" to overlook the lives of others.

[Purple Haize]

I’ve seen that argument and I understand where it is coming from
You can demonstrably show how having an abortion is fatal to at least one person every time
You cannot do the same with ad hoc and surgical mask usage.
It’s really not an apples to oranges comparison. If it were then every time I’ve gone into Wal Mart someone would die. Everytime I’ve gone to workout a member would die.

[rhezick]

Yea good point. Certainly not the same, but considering death is still a possibility in the first case, and the moral majority eats the second argument as their Wheaties for breakfast every morning, it seems the loose link would be enough to cause parallel lines of thought.

[Purple Haize]

Yea good point. Certainly not the same, but considering death is still a possibility in the first case, and the moral majority eats the second argument as their Wheaties for breakfast every morning, it seems the loose link would be enough to cause parallel lines of thought.

Not really. Because I’m not even sure you can make that link. 100% certainty of death by committing a willful and conscious act is a whole lot different than walking into Home Depot without a mask.

[Yacht Rock]

So I have this logical hurdle I'm facing that maybe I can get some help with. I mean this genuinely, without malice so I thought I'd put this out there. I read about so many people, be it on social media or news articles, make the following argument:

"The government is trampling on my individual rights by (telling me to wear a mask) despite the fact that it could save another life (the elderly, the sick, etc).

Isn't that the argument from those who are pro-choice?

"The government is trampling on my individual rights by (telling me I can't get an abortion) despite the fact that it could save another life (babies)."

I have no intent of turning this conversation away from the intended thread, and I respect whatever your position on is, but personally being pro-life I've honestly been struggling with doing anything other than supporting mask mandates and anything else that is "for the common good/health" because of the need to be argumentatively consistent. I genuinely struggle mentally to separate the two, and feel like in both situations, one uses "rights" to overlook the lives of others.

Yeah, I've connected the same dots. I think the response of a lot of people will damage the pro-life movement over the long haul.

[Jonathan Carone]

I think the bigger damage to the pro life movement will be the flippancy towards COVID deaths and old people.

[Purple Haize]

I think the bigger damage to the pro life movement will be the flippancy towards COVID deaths and old people.

Don’t forget those who have lost their lives via suicide and overdose during this time as well. They seem to be forgotten

[Jonathan Carone]

That’s a totally different conversation.

What I’m talking about is the rhetoric saying we have to sacrifice old people for the sake of the economy. The Texas lieutenant governor’s language was on the extreme, but many people who would generally be pro-life were saying similar sentiments.

[Purple Haize]

That’s a totally different conversation.

What I’m talking about is the rhetoric saying we have to sacrifice old people for the sake of the economy. The Texas lieutenant governor’s language was on the extreme, but many people who would generally be pro-life were saying similar sentiments.

Yeah that was an odd comment. I actually haven’t seen too many people defending that line of reasoning at all. I’d have to see evidence of “many”. In fact I have seen the exact opposite. People are saying let’s open things back up while taking extra precautions around those that are most vulnerable. This virus seems to skew heavily towards a certain patient population so taking specific precautions to protect them while allowing others shouldn’t be that difficult. It’s also pretty geographically based, so there’s even more specifics that can mitigate that
I don’t see how that is inconsistent with a Pro Life World view. Certainly not remotely close to advocating the sacrifice of Old people for the sake of the economy

[Yacht Rock]

Actions speak louder than words. Extra precautions = being willing to wear a mask without throwing a fit.

[RubberMallet]

That’s a totally different conversation.

What I’m talking about is the rhetoric saying we have to sacrifice old people for the sake of the economy. The Texas lieutenant governor’s language was on the extreme, but many people who would generally be pro-life were saying similar sentiments.

thats a media talking point narrative that hardly exists outside of headlines. and it hurts the prochoice movement as much as the pro life movement. both can be tied in knots philosophically with that line of thinking. But reality is that 30% of the working class is out of work and have very little to no savings. they are the "economy" that needs to be saved. experts are already warning that depressions/recessions have real "life" consequences. its not death vs economy its death vs death. talking about death candidly may seem significant but it is an inevitability. over 1 million people have died in the US to date . half of the covid deaths are in long term care facilities and the rest are largely made of the elderly with preexisting conditions. the majority of those dying at this point seemed to be on the way out.

we know this now and that means we now know you don't have to "sacrifice" the elderly to open the economy. just take precautions and be willing to do so even if you are skeptical of its effectiveness. especially if its as simple as wearing a mask. and try telling the elderly that! i see more elderly people out and about than every before. I spoke to the lady at Menards who was doing a return. she said overwelmingly the people who refuse to wear the masks into the store are elderly people. they know the risks! "i won't sacrifice my grandma!" well tell her that, she's at Costco buying patio furniture and klondike bars.

[Purple Haize]

That’s funny you mentioned that about the elderly not wearing masks. I have had some funny encounters with some older gentlemen out and about not wearing masks. My favorite “if I can survive the call girls of Vietnam, I can survive this”

[Jonathan Carone]

I'm not arguing against opening up at all. I was just pointing out the rhetoric used.

While you say it's a media talking point narrative that hardly exists outside of headlines, it absolutely existed in my Facebook feed over and over and over so much so that I had to leave local groups because of how often people were saying it.

[Purple Haize]

I'm not arguing against opening up at all. I was just pointing out the rhetoric used.

While you say it's a media talking point narrative that hardly exists outside of headlines, it absolutely existed in my Facebook feed over and over and over so much so that I had to leave local groups because of how often people were saying it.

I’m not sure your local FB groups are a good gauge of national dialogue. Using that logic, I could say I’ve never seen it outside the media headlines. I certainly have seen no Pro Sacrifice Old People movement anywhere.

[Jonathan Carone]

They're definitely not a good gauge of national dialogue. I never implied they were.

However - in local circles, which is where people are most impacted by those around them - it's absolutely damaging to the pro-life movement.

[Purple Haize]

That’s a confusing statement. Do you mean in local circles it’s absolutely damaging to the local pro life movement? Because it sounds like you are going local to national. I would counter by saying those are sentiments that would be rejected by most Pro Life people just as you have seen here. Every group has their crazy people. Those who say Sacrifice The Old are just as crazy as those who want everyone locked down till there’s a cure.

[RubberMallet]

if you've seen people openly saying who cares about old people i need to make money in the stock market, then you are in the wrong groups.

what i see people saying on my feeds is "i need to work to pay for things otherwise my family and I will be in ruin. people are dying people are going to die but people are going to die in otherways if we keep things shut down. Now that can be interpreted into "screw people dying i want money!!!!" and those who latch onto that narrative are able and as we can clearly see....are.

[Jonathan Carone]

That’s a confusing statement. Do you mean in local circles it’s absolutely damaging to the local pro life movement? Because it sounds like you are going local to national. I would counter by saying those are sentiments that would be rejected by most Pro Life people just as you have seen here. Every group has their crazy people. Those who say Sacrifice The Old are just as crazy as those who want everyone locked down till there’s a cure.

Sorry for the confusion.

I used a national example as the extreme.

My local examples are not that extreme or brazen, but they share the sentiment.

My argument for why local examples are just as, if not more, damning than federal ones is because people interact with others on a local level. That's where their perspective is most often formed. There could be an overarching "this isn't what pro-life means" on a national level but if the people I see at the grocery store, restaurants, and PTA meetings are the ones acting differently, I think they're the true representation of the movement. That's why I would see replies that said things like "This is why I can't trust Christians" or "How can you claim to be pro-life but not protect the elderly?"

I buy that in your circles you haven't seen those comments or reactions, but they most definitely exist and they're harmful.

[Jonathan Carone]

if you've seen people openly saying who cares about old people i need to make money in the stock market, then you are in the wrong groups.

what i see people saying on my feeds is "i need to work to pay for things otherwise my family and I will be in ruin. people are dying people are going to die but people are going to die in otherways if we keep things shut down. Now that can be interpreted into "screw people dying i want money!!!!" and those who latch onto that narrative are able and as we can clearly see....are.

No one's mentioning the stock market. My use of economy is totally at the local level. They're saying "we need to open businesses back up and if people get sick, we'll have to deal with that but I need to work."

[Purple Haize]

if you've seen people openly saying who cares about old people i need to make money in the stock market, then you are in the wrong groups.

what i see people saying on my feeds is "i need to work to pay for things otherwise my family and I will be in ruin. people are dying people are going to die but people are going to die in otherways if we keep things shut down. Now that can be interpreted into "screw people dying i want money!!!!" and those who latch onto that narrative are able and as we can clearly see....are.

No one's mentioning the stock market. My use of economy is totally at the local level. They're saying "we need to open businesses back up and if people get sick, we'll have to deal with that but I need to work."

That’s an entirely different argument than you’ve presented. Where is the “Sacrifice Old People”?

[RubberMallet]

if you've seen people openly saying who cares about old people i need to make money in the stock market, then you are in the wrong groups.

what i see people saying on my feeds is "i need to work to pay for things otherwise my family and I will be in ruin. people are dying people are going to die but people are going to die in otherways if we keep things shut down. Now that can be interpreted into "screw people dying i want money!!!!" and those who latch onto that narrative are able and as we can clearly see....are.

No one's mentioning the stock market. My use of economy is totally at the local level. They're saying "we need to open businesses back up and if people get sick, we'll have to deal with that but I need to work."

i guess i'm not seeing how that devalues life at all. if people can't work how will they pay for food, medication, things required for them to live? while acknowledging people will still get sick (not necessarily die?)