[Ed Dantes]

Scar and I had this discussion back on the men's basketball board; at the risk of hijacking a thread (more so) I'm continuing the discussion over here.

This is what Scar said back on the men's basketball board:

"You guys are assuming that people are hired that are not competent just because they are a minority. The anti-discrimination acts and affirmative action laws do not require you to lower your standards. That is the big misconception. It just means that you have to give opportunities to compete for a position. In the black female reporter analogy earlier, maybe she just needs some more experience in front of the camera. Doesn't mean she is incompetent or shouldn't be on the air. You are acting as if Joe Buck applied and they wanted to hire him but they needed a sista and the got the first one that walked through the door. There are plenty of occupations that don't have a lot of qualified applicants that are minorities and they don't have to worry about penalties from the government. Take Hockey for example. If affirmative action worked the way it is being portrayed by those against it, you would have some non skating fro wearing brothas playing in the NHL. The correlation between incompetence and affirmative action is not accurate. We live in a country that has 97% of it's work force working! There are plenty of opportunities for everyone really for the most part. All these laws were trying to do is prevent the very thing affirmative action gets accused of: Hiring someone who is unqualified because of the color of their skin. There were over qualified minorities and women that were being passed over for their inferior white counterparts. Not the other way around. Show me the white male that is educated and professional that is unemployed or had to change industries or occupation due to minorities and women taking up all his opportunities. This came up at the University of Michigan because they were admitting students based on their ethnicity to fill diversity quotas. I am not for that kind of implementation of affirmative action but the truth is that the students that did not get into Michigan that were white and discriminated against had 100's of options still. It is not like they couldn't go to another school. In the 50's and 60's and certainly prior, minorities were pretty much treated the same way accross the board (I am generalizing a bit to prove a point). The difference is they didn't have 100's of options when they were discriminated against...We can start another thread on this if you wish to discuss further. Sorry for the hijack but I felt I needed to address the things being said about this subject from a black professional's perspective."



The issue isn't really competence, insamuch as it is an issue about qualifications. If a person was qualified to be at a position, then why have affirmative action (which ensures that certain quotas are met)?

Affirmative action was designed to protect racism (such as a boss hiring only white guys, even when there are tons of African-Americans more capable at doing their job). I can understand that. However, by instituting quotas (saying "you must have X number of blacks or X number of females"), you limit the pool and force someone to hire an individual that they may or may not have wanted to hire in the first place.

Suppose I had 10 job openings and 16 applicants, 8 men and 8 women. Let's also say that the ten most qualified people are comprised of six men and four women, but I had to hire 5 each. Well, one qualified applicant gets showed the door, while another less-qualified is invited in. That's not right, be honest.

While you may say "well, that one qualified applicant will still find a job elsewhere". Well, unfortunately, not with my company! And in this capitalistic system, shouldn't I have the right to hire and fire anyone that I want?

Besides Scar, your reasoning is circular. You say the "truth is that the students [who] did not get into Michigan that were white and discriminated against had 100's of options still. It's not like they couldn't go to another school." Well, couldn't you say that about the students who got into Michigan only because of affirmative action? It's not like the only options for them are a) go to Michigan or b) flip burgers. Michigan is a good school; if the grades & SAT scores of the student in question was high enough to merit consideration by Michigan, then by all means there will be other schools that would just love to have them.

[PAmedic]

I think it may well be a matter of perspective here. Human nature is such that you base your opinions from experience, and all the debating in the world will not change that.

I haven't personally been a victim of race discrimination, nor would I do so as an employer- therefore, I tend to see the logic in EDs posts, and agree.

HOWEV-AH

If one HAS been discriminated against on that basis- I think one would expect that, without some sort of federal or state regulation- it would become commonplace and happen on a regular basis.

I tend to think that as a society, we are beyond that at this point. Then again- it may vary from region to region of the country. We certainly tend to be pretty colorblind where I live, at least IMHO.

[TallyW]

This accomplishment by Tony Dungee and Tubby Smith should be reason for all of us to celebrate.

Although more work is to be done I have been pleased with how far we have really come as a nation. I visited the Lincoln Memorial about 3 weeks ago and was again reminded that it hasn't been all that long. One thing for everyone to keep in mind is that perception and reality will be debated for a little while longer because we are so close to the civil rights movement. It will not be for another generation that we see this as much less of an issue. For some on both sides there is undoubtably still tension... from racists on both sides and people who aren't willing to let the failures of past generations go. I'm encouraged to see however that in all aspects of life we can see prominant leaders of color and who are women who have come to the forefront. Politically speaking, the Bush Administration is the most diverse we have ever experienced in this country and the Democratic ticket will be won (more than likely) by a woman or an African American man. Who knows, they may end up on the same ticket. In sports we have the aforementioned Superbowl which will draw plenty of attention to minority hiring and the fact is that the question is not if a black coach can get hired but rather if he can get re-hired... and the answer is now yes.

We do have a way to go but I think the conversation in the next 15 years will turn to a conversation of socio-economic status as opposed to race. Education and opportunity will be themes that rise to the top of our moral conciousness. As with many things in life we have to understand that the extreme elements have a place in the discussion but we have to tone them down in favor for the larger and more reasonable middle-ground.

One other point. As I've had these conversations among family and friends I often have to remind people that we are only a generation or two away from white-only facilities. It will take a little time for minorities in this country to have established and respected leaders to whom the younger generation can emulate. As long as we can judge people by the content of their character we will see many more minority children growing up to accomplish many great things in society.

As for Affirmative Action... sure it has drawbacks... and sure some people use it poorly to justify reverse-racism.... but honestly I don't believe it will be with us forever. Once the playing field is evened out this will be more and more of a non issue. Besides... the argument for "the best student" getting in is pretty stupid when you look at where many minority students are coming from... most of them are the first to graduate High School... Most deal with issues that my caucasion friends have only seen on MTV and most of their stories show that they have overcome far more than many caucasion students will ever know. The positive to AA is that it requires us to acknowledge that schools in empovershed areas do not do as good of a job educating as schools in the 'burbs but we can't judge SAT scores alone as to whether that kid will adapt and succeed in college. Simply because someone scored lower b/c they come from a crappy school district doesn't mean that they will not be able to learn what their college professors want out of them and go on to succeed in said college.

Let Freedom Ring.

[Fumblerooskies]

Here is a draw back...
...Because of an EEOC complaint, I lost out on a job, which had been verballed to me, to a female fresh out of grad school. At the time, I had 4 years of experience on her. Am I bitter? Yes, I am...
...fortunately, God had other plans for me, which helped lead me to LU.

Had I the opportunity to do it all over, I would file (and probably win) a reverse discrimination complaint. The President of the university made the decision over the Head Athletic Trainer and the AD's objections.

[ATrain]

My dad has been passed over for promotions b/c of affirmative action...and everytime, the person who got it "resigned" about a year and a half after. So, ya'll will have to forgive me when I say I'm not the biggest fan of affirmative action.

[LUconn]

is AA listed as the reason that people get a particular job? I'm pretty sure that would be sensetive info that only HR would know. Could it be these other people are more qualified? Or lied on their resume? Or slipped the interviewer a Ben Franklin? I don't really like AA but to assume that's why you didn't get a job if you aren't 100% sure seems like you're being pretty aarogant.

[TIMSCAR20]

Ed,

you made some great points most of which I agree with. How things are administered and abused is usually the point where the policies like affirmative action come into play. All I am trying to say is that it was and is an unfortunate part of our history as a country and our society that policies like this became necessary. The fact is that people of color were and to an extent still are being discriminated against in the workplace. Fumblerooskie said it best that it won't always be a necesary policy as social norms start to change. People still get judged based on race in this country for sure but our society has come a long way in terms of tolerance and acceptance. I didn't tell you guys that I don't even necessarily support affirmative action anymore. It has been abused and manipulated by individuals with an agenda. My point was to bring to light why it was necessary at the time....I don't think you guys realize how far behind socially and economically you get put behind when your ancestors worked for free and were considered by the United States Government to be 3/5 of a human being! Psychologically,socially and economically, that has taken a long time to recover from. Blacks were not even allowed to vote in this country until 3 years before I was born! That is staggering to me. So while we have come a long way as a society, there still is some distance that needs to be traveled.

[TIMSCAR20]

is AA listed as the reason that people get a particular job? I'm pretty sure that would be sensetive info that only HR would know. Could it be these other people are more qualified? Or lied on their resume? Or slipped the interviewer a Ben Franklin? I don't really like AA but to assume that's why you didn't get a job if you aren't 100% sure seems like you're being pretty aarogant.

I have to agree with LUconn on that one. I have been a finalist for many good positions and come in second or 3rd out of dozens of candidates. Who knows why I didn't get the position. I certainly am not gonna play the race card or blame affirmative action for A-Train's dad not getting the job. The world is much more complex than that. 100's of variables go into the interview process for upper level jobs. You don't know what will get you a job or lose it for you for that matter. You are at the mercy of the whimsy of the decision makers. All you can do is keep plugging away and keep looking for positions. A-Train, your dad, if he is qualified, will continue to get opportunities and remember it only takes one job. I have been contracting for 5 years now but I was a permanent employee at the mid level management level before getting bought out by AT&T. I am in no position to blame it on racism or anything else. Unless you are privy to the inside information, you don't know what goes into these decisions outside of financial considerations.

[Fumblerooskies]

I don't really like AA but to assume that's why you didn't get a job if you aren't 100% sure seems like you're being pretty aarogant.

Yes...
...I can be pretty arrogant. But I am 100% certain I was hosed on the job because of AA. The school was faced with an EEOC complaint at the time from a female coach getting fired and a male coach put in her place...
...the President was running scared.

[TIMSCAR20]

Rooskie,

I was referencing the Skinny Kid's comments about his dad's situation. You were probably more in a position to know the ins and outs of the hire in that situation. I know, as LUconn pointed out, that you are not always aware as to exactly why a person was given an opportunity over you.

[Ed Dantes]

Blacks were not even allowed to vote in this country until 3 years before I was born! That is staggering to me.

What? You were born in 1873?

Scar, if you're that old, we should start calling you "wrinkle".

[Ed Dantes]

I don't really like AA but to assume that's why you didn't get a job if you aren't 100% sure seems like you're being pretty aarogant.

Yes...
...I can be pretty arrogant. But I am 100% certain I was hosed on the job because of AA.

And here's the problem with affirmative action: Fumblerooskie didn't get a job he felt he deserved, so he blames it on AA. The person who got the job is known as the person who got it only because of AA.

Or maybe not, the person who got the job could be fully-qualified. The problem is, we'll never know. And whatever his/her qualifications are for the job get lost in the fray of the suspicions that he/she shouldn't have gotten the job in the first place.

[ATrain]

Well, based on the pattern of people who got it over him, its easy to see how AA can be blamed. I'm not going to go into details, however, my dad will get it just as soon as someone retires or leaves.

[TIMSCAR20]

The civil rights act of 1964 is what I was referring to: See below (and sometimes I feel like I was born in 1873 )

Although the Fifteenth Amendment established particular voting rights, and gave Congress the authority to enforce those rights and regulate the voting process, the vote was still allowed to be withheld from most southern blacks and from non-white minorities throughout the U.S., from the the post-Reconstruction era through the 1960s.

-Wikepedia

[Libertine]

The civil rights act of 1964 is what I was referring to: See below (and sometimes I feel like I was born in 1873 )

Although the Fifteenth Amendment established particular voting rights, and gave Congress the authority to enforce those rights and regulate the voting process, the vote was still allowed to be withheld from most southern blacks and from non-white minorities throughout the U.S., from the the post-Reconstruction era through the 1960s.

-Wikepedia

All of which means that it was technically legal for blacks to vote in 1873, Congress couldn't actually be bothered to enforce the Constitution for nearly 100 years. Nice.

[Sly Fox]

Would someone like to eat some Jim Crow?

[TIMSCAR20]

Good ol' Jim Crow....Ah, the good old days... This topic is very sensitive but it is nice to see that it is not as polarizing these days as, I don't know, Who the coach of our Men's basketball team is Certainly a sign of progress...When I hear stories (1st hand btw) from reletives that grew up in the south and how things are now, I don't think I would have made it back then. No way I would be married to MRS SCAR. I know most of you guys are not black and I don't want to pretend like I am THE Voice of the African American but it is nice to be able to talk about this stuff with you guys.

[bigsmooth]

im not sure where i stand on AA. back in the 70's and 80's i would say i was for it. blacks were not getting the opportunities they are getting now, but in some areas, things have not changed. i firmly believe that the most qualified person for the job should get it, but im not crazy enough to think that that is always the case. the times i have been passed over for a new job or promotion was because i was not qualified, someone had more experience, and most recently because i did not have an MBA....I guess i need to finish that huh!! SCAR, i think i have told you that when my mom and dad got married it was illegal in virginia, so they had to go to maryland. i cannot even imagine that! we have certainly come a long way as a country, but we still have a lot of work to do. quite frankly i think more women are being passed over than blacks now, but that is just my opinion.

[Sly Fox]

I think sometimes we confuse AA with diversity. I am strongly in favor of the latter. Sometimes the different perspective is more valuable to a position than experience. I've been passed over for jobs where I firmly believe I was the most qualified candidate many times in my line of work. But I've come to a peace that God is in control and I have to trust Him that he is control and it will all work together for good. That's not easy but its how I approach the subject.

[TIMSCAR20]

Amen Sly. I have shared some of my frustrations with you about seeking employment over the past few years....Someone has even suggested to me that they can't figure out why I am not a full time employee of Liberty and that it may be because of my interracial marriage. Like I said, I don't like to play the race card but things like that do go through your mind when people bring it up. I have had a situation like that in the past that my marriage was held against me (not at Liberty)....I have taken the same approach as Sly. In fact we have prayed about it and have given up the "dream" of living in Lynchburg and are gonna put Stately Scarborough Manor up for sale real soon and move to Richmond permanently...Don't worry, I will still be available to do Flames Television (if they allow me to).

[PAmedic]

In fact we have prayed about it and have given up the "dream" of living in Lynchburg and are gonna put Stately Scarborough Manor up for sale real soon and move to Richmond permanently...

aargh!

and I've never been!

[TIMSCAR20]

Don't worry Medic, if you come down for the Spring game, I will be sure to have you and Mrs Medic over to the Manor...If not you will have to come to Richmond to see Manor II.

[bigsmooth]

i could see where you would think that about LU SCAR....i have often wondered why there is not that much color at liberty and the rest of the ministries on the mounatin. i guess with anything else it takes time.