[cruzan_flame13]

I have more than once been reminded of the Tower of Babel recently while driving past the school on 460.

I don't see how. I don't see Liberty trying to do things on their without God in the picture. I believe you you taking this out of proportion. The fact you're using that part of Genesis 11( is it that chapter? Just stating from the top of my head) and comparing it to Liberty is a bit absurd. I know there are some things that you might not agree with the decisions being made, but taking it in that direction makes you sound a little like a Pharisee. All of these decisions that are being made should not be new to you. This is the same ideals the late Falwell had in mind for the future of Liberty. Yes the situation with McCaw is a bit uneasy, but we can't just start making assumptions or misusing the bible for our personal opinions. Just like the body, people will come and go(especially when they don't like what's being said and it is convicting). I'm not trying to be a troll but just being observant here.

[Purple Haize]

Was there a point to that?
I never said athletes shouldn't compete their hardest and use their gifts to the fullest
I also stated earlier that you should do the best you can where you are at.
Finally doing your best (dare I go all Chambers and say Ultmost) will bring success but winning isn't a priority to God and thinking God cares about winning is a huge fallacy. Too many confuse winning, which is awesome, with Gods Will.

[flamehunter]

I have more than once been reminded of the Tower of Babel recently while driving past the school on 460.

I don't see how. I don't see Liberty trying to do things on their without God in the picture. I believe you you taking this out of proportion. The fact you're using that part of Genesis 11( is it that chapter? Just stating from the top of my head) and comparing it to Liberty is a bit absurd. I know there are some things that you might not agree with the decisions being made, but taking it in that direction makes you sound a little like a Pharisee. All of these decisions that are being made should not be new to you. This is the same ideals the late Falwell had in mind for the future of Liberty. Yes the situation with McCaw is a bit uneasy, but we can't just start making assumptions or misusing the bible for our personal opinions. Just like the body, people will come and go(especially when they don't like what's being said and it is convicting). I'm not trying to be a troll but just being observant here.

I have been in and around Liberty since 1982. I have never been overly critical of the school because of the mission and all the good done there and defend it regularly to coworkers and others I come in contact with almost on a daily basis. I've also been around long enough to see the trends of where the school is going. I see more and more being done supposedly to further the mission and glorify God but with a lot of pride and chest thumping accompanying that. I hope that I'm wrong but I can see the school one day losing complete focus on that mission and existing to glorify self rather than God. That may take a couple more generations, but at one time I thought it would never be possible, much like you.
Calling me Pharisaical is ridiculous. I do not pretend to be better than anyone. I just call it like I see it. Maybe I should keep my opinions to myself but this is a message board, where posting opinions is the order of the day. I see a tower being built which was introduced as the "tallest structure in Lynchburg". Is that so God can be glorified? Or to tell the world "Hey look at us!". I know how you'll answer but I guarantee you the unsaved world out there sees it differently than you do.

[cruzan_flame13]

Was there a point to that?
I never said athletes shouldn't compete their hardest and use their gifts to the fullest
I also stated earlier that you should do the best you can where you are at.
Finally doing your best (dare I go all Chambers and say Ultmost) will bring success but winning isn't a priority to God and thinking God cares about winning is a huge fallacy. Too many confuse winning, which is awesome, with Gods Will.

I don't think anyone is stating that winning is God's will. I believe is more towards competing to a higher level. If people make that statement, then maybe they're making their own assumptions. I don't see making moves to have a better athletic program is just about winning. The point is we hope that these moves is to improve the athletes to compete at better levels. I'm sure the athletic staff has God first and every success is based on his blessings.

[cruzan_flame13]

I have more than once been reminded of the Tower of Babel recently while driving past the school on 460.

I don't see how. I don't see Liberty trying to do things on their without God in the picture. I believe you you taking this out of proportion. The fact you're using that part of Genesis 11( is it that chapter? Just stating from the top of my head) and comparing it to Liberty is a bit absurd. I know there are some things that you might not agree with the decisions being made, but taking it in that direction makes you sound a little like a Pharisee. All of these decisions that are being made should not be new to you. This is the same ideals the late Falwell had in mind for the future of Liberty. Yes the situation with McCaw is a bit uneasy, but we can't just start making assumptions or misusing the bible for our personal opinions. Just like the body, people will come and go(especially when they don't like what's being said and it is convicting). I'm not trying to be a troll but just being observant here.

I have been in and around Liberty since 1982. I have never been overly critical of the school because of the mission and all the good done there and defend it regularly to coworkers and others I come in contact with almost on a daily basis. I've also been around long enough to see the trends of where the school is going. I see more and more being done supposedly to further the mission and glorify God but with a lot of pride and chest thumping accompanying that. I hope that I'm wrong but I can see the school one day losing complete focus on that mission and existing to glorify self rather than God. That may take a couple more generations, but at one time I thought it would never be possible, much like you.
Calling me Pharisaical is ridiculous. I do not pretend to be better than anyone. I just call it like I see it. Maybe I should keep my opinions to myself but this is a message board, where posting opinions is the order of the day. I see a tower being built which was introduced as the "tallest structure in Lynchburg". Is that so God can be glorified? Or to tell the world "Hey look at us!". I know how you'll answer but I guarantee you the unsaved world out there sees it differently than you do.

I don't think building a tower tall to see the entire campus should be compared to the tower of Babel. All these improvements of Liberty was a vision for the beginning. It is good to keep the principles of the school and focus on the mission to train champions for Christ, but there's nothing wrong renovating the campus and improving athletic programs. Being observant and visionary to continue to hsin interests to people doesn't make the leaders prideful or chest thumpers. Every university have to renovate and build if they want to continue getting interests in all different areas. So creating the "tallest tower in Lynchburg" isn't even comparable to people trying to find their own way to heaven. Also the Pharisees weren't just a group who thought they were better. They believe they were the Law and everythung else was a threat. Just like Christ was to them. So from your statement, you and others don't like the way things are going. Times have change and so will Liberty. As I can see, their motto is still training Champions for Christ and giving God the glory to academia and athletics. So if the school can't give an impression to others for the reason of accusation or assumption for being prideful or stepping away from their vision, what was the point of Jerry Sr's vision for creating a Christian school that can one day be at the highest level alongside known schools? If you call a building a tower and then using the bible for your personal reasons justifiable, then were you so supportive of Liberty after all? Or was it just in your liking only and not for the benefit of the school as a whole? You can have your opinion but don't make it seem like it's factual with no hardcore evidence of such. The leaders are not perfect, but these decision was done by a group of people looking at the vision of the school, not to glorify themselves. Every decision they make will not be to everyone's liking, but the renovation of the school will make people look at it generally. It's the media who pushes the "look at Liberty" agenda more than Liberty themselves. Haven't said that, the world will always criticize Liberty in some way for what the school stand for. So they'll always be biases and criticism.

[Jonathan Carone]

Contrary to popular belief in the Christian world, a leader's 'vision' for something can sometimes end up being wrong. The landscape of college athletics has changed so much since Doc originally stated his vision of playing against Notre Dame that it forces us to step back and see if that vision is both plausible or ideal for the future of our school. Baylor was once known as a great Baptist school and sold its soul to the gods of athletic prominence. That has to be a warning to our leadership about the future vision of our school. I don't know that it's possible to have great FBS success in football while still maintaining who we are as a school.

[Purple Haize]

Was there a point to that?
I never said athletes shouldn't compete their hardest and use their gifts to the fullest
I also stated earlier that you should do the best you can where you are at.
Finally doing your best (dare I go all Chambers and say Ultmost) will bring success but winning isn't a priority to God and thinking God cares about winning is a huge fallacy. Too many confuse winning, which is awesome, with Gods Will.

I don't think anyone is stating that winning is God's will. I believe is more towards competing to a higher level. If people make that statement, then maybe they're making their own assumptions. I don't see making moves to have a better athletic program is just about winning. The point is we hope that these moves is to improve the athletes to compete at better levels. I'm sure the athletic staff has God first and every success is based on his blessings.

LU competes at the NCAA Division 1 level. That's pretty high. Should all Christian Universities compete at that level? What compromises are you willing to make to compete at a higher level? Do you ever think leaders should be held accountable?

[flamehunter]

cf13 - You are making a ton of assumptions about me (you don't know me from Adam, or Purple or Sly for that matter) and about the thought processes of the leadership at Liberty. You seem to take what they are saying at face value and put absolutely no critical thinking to use in deciding if what they are saying is true or not. Then when I express some doubt about what you believe to be true, I am a Pharisee. I'm guessing you are fairly young based on when you went to Liberty. When you have gained more experience in this world you will learn to take off the rose colored glasses and dig deeper into what you see and hear out there and decide based on experience and wisdom just what is and isn't true. Until then I think we are just going to not see things currently in the same light.

[Yacht Rock]

I think a lot of concern is "growth at what cost?"

Most aren't against the growth, but just see a lot of instances where the school has put growth above mission.

That is usually the element that concerns people. I can say my personal reservations about LU are based on personal interactions and decisions that impact my family, not assumptions.

For what it's worth, I do feel that a lot of students, faculty, and staff are great people and do value Liberty's mission and work to make the university a better place, as hard as that is from their position.

[Purple Haize]

cf13 - You are making a ton of assumptions about me (you don't know me from Adam, or Purple or Sly for that matter) and about the thought processes of the leadership at Liberty. You seem to take what they are saying at face value and put absolutely no critical thinking to use in deciding if what they are saying is true or not. Then when I express some doubt about what you believe to be true, I am a Pharisee. I'm guessing you are fairly young based on when you went to Liberty. When you have gained more experience in this world you will learn to take off the rose colored glasses and dig deeper into what you see and hear out there and decide based on experience and wisdom just what is and isn't true. Until then I think we are just going to not see things currently in the same light.

I see what you did there.

It looks like the Brigade has a solid new member

[Jonathan Carone]

For what it's worth, I do feel that a lot of students, faculty, and staff are great people and do value Liberty's mission and work to make the university a better place, as hard as that is from their position.

This same exact thing can be said for Baylor. There are still tons of really good kids who go to Baylor who believe in their mission. But because the University and Athletic Department sold out for athletic success, the school is known for that, not the mission and values it was founded on. That's the path we're on.

[thepostman]

But Jerry knows best guys.

[Purple Haize]

For what it's worth, I do feel that a lot of students, faculty, and staff are great people and do value Liberty's mission and work to make the university a better place, as hard as that is from their position.

This same exact thing can be said for Baylor. There are still tons of really good kids who go to Baylor who believe in their mission. But because the University and Athletic Department sold out for athletic success, the school is known for that, not the mission and values it was founded on. That's the path we're on.

About 2 years ago one of the coolest smartest sexiest people I know said they see LU modeling themselves after Baylor. That it is Baylor who Jerry wants to grow up and become.

[cruzan_flame13]

Contrary to popular belief in the Christian world, a leader's 'vision' for something can sometimes end up being wrong. The landscape of college athletics has changed so much since Doc originally stated his vision of playing against Notre Dame that it forces us to step back and see if that vision is both plausible or ideal for the future of our school. Baylor was once known as a great Baptist school and sold its soul to the gods of athletic prominence. That has to be a warning to our leadership about the future vision of our school. I don't know that it's possible to have great FBS success in football while still maintaining who we are as a school.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that a vision can be mistaken, yet I'm just pointing out that it may be use for the great commission. Just because something occurred at Baylor in the way it was, doesn't mean that it will occur here. Also in that situation, the issues that occurred can be learn from an attempted to not repeat the same actions. Still doesn't mean that you can't have both a Christ driven school with good athletics. I do appreciate that you said you don't know and not there isn't a way to have both.

[cruzan_flame13]

Was there a point to that?
I never said athletes shouldn't compete their hardest and use their gifts to the fullest
I also stated earlier that you should do the best you can where you are at.
Finally doing your best (dare I go all Chambers and say Ultmost) will bring success but winning isn't a priority to God and thinking God cares about winning is a huge fallacy. Too many confuse winning, which is awesome, with Gods Will.

I don't think anyone is stating that winning is God's will. I believe is more towards competing to a higher level. If people make that statement, then maybe they're making their own assumptions. I don't see making moves to have a better athletic program is just about winning. The point is we hope that these moves is to improve the athletes to compete at better levels. I'm sure the athletic staff has God first and every success is based on his blessings.

LU competes at the NCAA Division 1 level. That's pretty high. Should all Christian Universities compete at that level? What compromises are you willing to make to compete at a higher level? Do you ever think leaders should be held accountable?

We play division 1, but are you questioning the stability of the school that we move towards FBS/Top conference play? I believe people should be held accountable, but I'm not going to just "eat up" what so and so said or media plus emotional/personal feelings. If the Lord doesn't want it to occur, then it will not. Nonetheless the leaders of the school has a right to ask and work for the opportunity as God provides the steps.

[Jonathan Carone]

If the Lord doesn't want it to occur, then it will not. Nonetheless the leaders of the school has a right to ask and work for the opportunity as God provides the steps.

Do we really want to get into a theology debate here?

[cruzan_flame13]

cf13 - You are making a ton of assumptions about me (you don't know me from Adam, or Purple or Sly for that matter) and about the thought processes of the leadership at Liberty. You seem to take what they are saying at face value and put absolutely no critical thinking to use in deciding if what they are saying is true or not. Then when I express some doubt about what you believe to be true, I am a Pharisee. I'm guessing you are fairly young based on when you went to Liberty. When you have gained more experience in this world you will learn to take off the rose colored glasses and dig deeper into what you see and hear out there and decide based on experience and wisdom just what is and isn't true. Until then I think we are just going to not see things currently in the same light.

If you read my comments, it is disagreeing with others opinions while expressing my perspective. That's what this is all about isn't it? I do not know any of you and never said I did. I just stated by you comments you are a bit over exaggerating but I see it got to you. So since you don't agree with me, some how I'm not critically thinking. I was asking questions about your statements, haven't I? I suppose that's not thinking critically. Also I stated that you are acting in a way that the Pharisees did; didn't say you are one. If the tower being built reminded you of the the tower of babel, then that's your opinion. As I stated it doesn't mean that's what Falwell and others had in mind to glorify themselves to the world/media. Of course you had to add in the "you are young so you haven't experience yet" axiom. Wisdom or thinking doesn't apply based on age. You just went against your own comment and you don't know me. See how this works?

[Purple Haize]

If the Lord doesn't want it to occur, then it will not. Nonetheless the leaders of the school has a right to ask and work for the opportunity as God provides the steps.

Do we really want to get into a theology debate here?

Before that maybe they need a remedial English course? Perhaps Cider can help?

[cruzan_flame13]

If the Lord doesn't want it to occur, then it will not. Nonetheless the leaders of the school has a right to ask and work for the opportunity as God provides the steps.

Do we really want to get into a theology debate here?

I'm not trying to make a structured debate here, just a discussion.

[thepostman]

I don't quite get what is going on here anymore.

[SumItUp]

If the Lord doesn't want it to occur, then it will not. Nonetheless the leaders of the school has a right to ask and work for the opportunity as God provides the steps.

Do we really want to get into a theology debate here?

Before that maybe they need a remedial English course? Perhaps Cider can help?

Roccgroh?

[cruzan_flame13]

If the Lord doesn't want it to occur, then it will not. Nonetheless the leaders of the school has a right to ask and work for the opportunity as God provides the steps.

Do we really want to get into a theology debate here?

Before that maybe they need a remedial English course? Perhaps Cider can help?

I don't know whose "they" that you're referring to, but hopefully it's not pointing out others from their comments on this thread.

[Purple Haize]

I am far from a Grammar Nazi but I can't follow 1/2 of what you are saying I'll make my fair share of grammatical mistakes but I'm struggling trying to follow your thought process. Which is saying something

[Purple Haize]

I don't quite get what is going on here anymore.

This could be why we are struggling

[youtube]lkmq2eH3_Go[/youtube]

[Jonathan Carone]

If the Lord doesn't want it to occur, then it will not. Nonetheless the leaders of the school has a right to ask and work for the opportunity as God provides the steps.

Do we really want to get into a theology debate here?

I'm not trying to make a structured debate here, just a discussion.

You may not want a debate, but the idea that if God doesn't want it to occur then he'll magically step in and stop it is flawed at best. Your assumption that God is inherently providing the steps moving forward is also flawed. The reason I bring those up is because your entire argument is based on the idea that because it was Doc's vision to be big time FBS, then whatever is happening now has to be a result of God wanting it to happen and blessing it in the process. I'm not so sure I want to go sledding down that slope.