[BJWilliams]

Really you can split Liberty football into the early years, the D2 era (Dowling and Hout), the transition (Rutigliano), the "Dark Ages" (Karcher) and the Modern/Money Era

[VAGolf]

You can compare output and results.

The beauty of this is that Mike and Brock were both seniors in their second year. Josh is a junior. He has plenty of time to improve and prove us wrong and he has the talent to do it. Our future this year and next is completely dependent on his development.

I disagree. The entire game of football has changed since 06, for one. Secondly, football isn't a game of statistics, football is a game of systems and situations. You can't look at statistics over an 8 year period and compare quarterbacks that played in different generations of football, under different coaches.

I see where you're going but your comparison is mere folly.

Also, Josh was recruited by Rocco and spent his first year learning that system and playbook. His first year starting was spent learning Gill's system and playbook, while also learning how to play at the collegiate level. Heck, a lot of our starters are Rocco's recruits. Gill still isn't using his recruits, so this offense isn't functioning at 100% efficiency. If you're going to compare players based on their level of experience, you have to factor that in.

Sorry, I just have a hard time finding much fault with a QB who had an average game against a really good team. We aren't a good FBS team. We're an FCS team who struggles to make playoffs, and who's coach is just in his third year. I'm not celebrating only losing to UNC by 27 or anything, but at the same time, no one should be selling any stock in Woodrum or the team.

[bluejacket]

I disagree. The entire game of football has changed since 06, for one. Secondly, football isn't a game of statistics, football is a game of systems and situations. You can't look at statistics over an 8 year period and compare quarterbacks that played in different generations of football, under different coaches.

I see where you're going but your comparison is mere folly.

Also, Josh was recruited by Rocco and spent his first year learning that system and playbook. His first year starting was spent learning Gill's system and playbook, while also learning how to play at the collegiate level. Heck, a lot of our starters are Rocco's recruits. Gill still isn't using his recruits, so this offense isn't functioning at 100% efficiency. If you're going to compare players based on their level of experience, you have to factor that in.

Sorry, I just have a hard time finding much fault with a QB who had an average game against a really good team. We aren't a good FBS team. We're an FCS team who struggles to make playoffs, and who's coach is just in his third year. I'm not celebrating only losing to UNC by 27 or anything, but at the same time, no one should be selling any stock in Woodrum or the team.

The bolded part is definitely inaccurate. Our offense is as completely installed as any team in the country is going to be. There will be changes and wrinkles like any system, but what you see is almost entirely what you are going to get. Hold this offensive coaching staff (including TG) responsible for their inability to adapt and raise the unit's play. It's year three, improve or we can find someone else.

I agree with the most of the rest. Josh is not better than Mike yet, but he is nearly even with Brock right now. Josh is not statistically better than the others, but he has played tougher teams with less talent than the other two. He played a poor game against UNC which contributed to us losing the game, but I think that he will rebound and play much better the rest of the season. I don't think that his improved play will get us into the playoffs, but that's a different story.......

[VAGolf]

I disagree. The entire game of football has changed since 06, for one. Secondly, football isn't a game of statistics, football is a game of systems and situations. You can't look at statistics over an 8 year period and compare quarterbacks that played in different generations of football, under different coaches.

I see where you're going but your comparison is mere folly.

Also, Josh was recruited by Rocco and spent his first year learning that system and playbook. His first year starting was spent learning Gill's system and playbook, while also learning how to play at the collegiate level. Heck, a lot of our starters are Rocco's recruits. Gill still isn't using his recruits, so this offense isn't functioning at 100% efficiency. If you're going to compare players based on their level of experience, you have to factor that in.

Sorry, I just have a hard time finding much fault with a QB who had an average game against a really good team. We aren't a good FBS team. We're an FCS team who struggles to make playoffs, and who's coach is just in his third year. I'm not celebrating only losing to UNC by 27 or anything, but at the same time, no one should be selling any stock in Woodrum or the team.

The bolded part is definitely inaccurate. Our offense is as completely installed as any team in the country is going to be. There will be changes and wrinkles like any system, but what you see is almost entirely what you are going to get. Hold this offensive coaching staff (including TG) responsible for their inability to adapt and raise the unit's play. It's year three, improve or we can find someone else.

Yes, the offense is completely installed. But the point I was trying to make is that the seniors and Juniors(RS) on this team, weren't recruited by Gill. They all understand and know Gill's system and playbook. However, they weren't recruited to be apart of his offense or defense, they were recruited to be a part of Rocco's.

I hope we aren't in "improve or get fired" mode with Gill yet. Organizational stability should be of high importance for those who want to succeed. If the program is a dumpster fire, like basketball, than I'm on board with finding someone else. We're a private institution, which limits are choices in head coaches. If coaches see us firing someone for every three years, no one will want to coach here.

[PAmedic]

Josh didn't play great on Saturday, but I'm sensing a lot of unwarranted disappointment. It was the first game of the season and it was against a team good enough to win the ACC.

its NOT unwarranted. UNC didn't make him overthrow wide open receivers, multiple times. Those type of mistakes are on him, regardless of the level of competition.

Sorry, I just have a hard time finding much fault with a QB who had an average game against a really good team. We aren't a good FBS team. We're an FCS team who struggles to make playoffs, and who's coach is just in his third year. I'm not celebrating only losing to UNC by 27 or anything, but at the same time, no one should be selling any stock in Woodrum or the team.

yeah, the problem is according to the brass we are "FBS READY". no more excuses. This must be a LU fan thing... happy to compete, glad to be here, "Win or Lose".

how bout a mindset of less losing and more winning.

I hope we aren't in "improve or get fired" mode with Gill yet. Organizational stability should be of high importance for those who want to succeed. If the program is a dumpster fire, like basketball, than I'm on board with finding someone else. We're a private institution, which limits are choices in head coaches. If coaches see us firing someone for every three years, no one will want to coach here.

We are in that mode. Every DI program is in that mode. There is way too much $ and resources tied up in the sport nowadays to go years for the sake of "Organizational stability". the kids are only here for 4-5 yrs... onwards and upwards.

if you aint goin forwards you're goin backwards.

being private doesnt limit us. In fact- our budget (read: open checkbook) and ability to make decisions overnight probably helps us. It also bites us in the arse from time to time but thats another story.

[PAmedic]

the above is what happens when I get my coffee early in the morning

and do meth.

[SuperJon]

But the point I was trying to make is that the seniors and Juniors(RS) on this team, weren't recruited by Gill. They all understand and know Gill's system and playbook. However, they weren't recruited to be apart of his offense or defense, they were recruited to be a part of Rocco's.

The problem with your point is that it's stupid. Brock Smith, Zach Terrell, Wynton Jackson, Nick Hursky, Ryan Greiser, Colin Duggan, Pat Calvary, Pat Dickerson, and that entire core were recruited by Karcher yet Rocco turned them into some of the top teams we've ever had a Liberty. A good coach can win with other talent three years into his system. It's not like we completely changed over what we're doing on offense. They still look pretty similar.

This whole time, I've never said Josh wasn't good. However, if he's going to be the quarterback that leads us to the FBS level (and he said he wants to be), he's going to have to improve quite a bit. Josh is a very good Big South quarterback, the second best in the league. We need him to be the best. He's three years into this system. If the coaches are holding him to a higher standard, we're allowed to as well. I'm tired of above average football in a weak conference with no playoffs. Finishing the season with eight wins isn't exciting anymore. If we go 10-2 and miss the playoffs, this season was a bust.

[jcmanson]

WWR

[Kolzilla41]

WWR

What does that mean?

[PAmedic]

WWR

nice... good scoop

[jcmanson]

White helmet, white jersey, red pants

[PAmedic]

like that MUCH better than last weeks.

if we can't go ALL white that is.

[jcmanson]

I'm sure we'll see the red helmet next week for the home opener.

[jcmanson]

Game Preview & Prediction http://www.libertyflamesnation.com/norf ... rediction/

[PAmedic]

good piece.

that road-loss stat (0-6 under Gill) is really disturbing.

that type of results LONG TERM is what gets a guy canned

GOTTA win on the road at this level. good teams, esp those who get at large bids, travel well

[bluejacket]

The problem with your point is that it's stupid. Brock Smith, Zach Terrell, Wynton Jackson, Nick Hursky, Ryan Greiser, Colin Duggan, Pat Calvary, Pat Dickerson, and that entire core were recruited by Karcher yet Rocco turned them into some of the top teams we've ever had a Liberty. A good coach can win with other talent three years into his system. It's not like we completely changed over what we're doing on offense. They still look pretty similar.

This whole time, I've never said Josh wasn't good. However, if he's going to be the quarterback that leads us to the FBS level (and he said he wants to be), he's going to have to improve quite a bit. Josh is a very good Big South quarterback, the second best in the league. We need him to be the best. He's three years into this system. If the coaches are holding him to a higher standard, we're allowed to as well. I'm tired of above average football in a weak conference with no playoffs. Finishing the season with eight wins isn't exciting anymore. If we go 10-2 and miss the playoffs, this season was a bust.

Yes.

[bluejacket]

that road-loss stat (0-6 under Gill) is really disturbing.

that type of results LONG TERM is what gets a guy canned

GOTTA win on the road at this level. good teams, esp those who get at large bids, travel well

Yes, it is.

[VAGolf]

But the point I was trying to make is that the seniors and Juniors(RS) on this team, weren't recruited by Gill. They all understand and know Gill's system and playbook. However, they weren't recruited to be apart of his offense or defense, they were recruited to be a part of Rocco's.

The problem with your point is that it's stupid. Brock Smith, Zach Terrell, Wynton Jackson, Nick Hursky, Ryan Greiser, Colin Duggan, Pat Calvary, Pat Dickerson, and that entire core were recruited by Karcher yet Rocco turned them into some of the top teams we've ever had a Liberty. A good coach can win with other talent three years into his system. It's not like we completely changed over what we're doing on offense. They still look pretty similar.

Sure a good coach can win quickly, but not ALL good coaches do. Also, if we canned guys every three years, we would easily become one of the least desirable schools.

I just don't think it's fair to talk about a coach being in a must win situation, after his first game in his third season. Not to mention, that game was against a really good FBS team. A game that we were winning in the third quarter. We should have never been in that game to begin with. Most of that team was around last season, when ODU had to quit after three quarters because they were down by 60. We have less scholarships than they do for one. Secondly, we aren't getting the same recruits that they are.

I don't know if Gill is a great coach or a bad coach. I don't know if Woodrum is the right quarterback to lead this offense. But why put Gill in a spot like that in only his third year, right after we played UNC? Why question our starting quarterback after that one game? Woodrum was a very borderline D1A recruit. Most of those UNC kids are 3 and 4 star athletes. If we would have been added to the Sun Belt, C-USA, MWC, WAC-East, or American conference five years ago, we still shouldn't have beaten UNC on Saturday. It's just a different level of competition. We aren't FBS yet, so, let's stop holding our coach and quarterback to those standards.

We just played UNC, and yet some of you are reacting as if we just played JMU.

Lastly, close losses and disappointing seasons go back to BEFORE Gill, and are evident in all of our sports. Turner Gill shouldn't be held responsible for rectifying a problem that is rampant through all of our athletics.

[SuperJon]

The Gill thing is a totally different debate and I wasn't the one to bring it up, so I'm not going to jump in there.

However, the thing you can't wrap your head around is that we're not being critical because of the result. We're being critical because of the level of play, the mistakes we made, and the lack of improvement in critical areas.

[VAGolf]

The Gill thing is a totally different debate and I wasn't the one to bring it up, so I'm not going to jump in there.

However, the thing you can't wrap your head around is that we're not being critical because of the result. We're being critical because of the level of play, the mistakes we made, and the lack of improvement in critical areas.

You said, "Hold this offensive coaching staff (including TG) responsible for their inability to adapt and raise the unit's play. It's year three, improve or we can find someone else."

Secondly, I get that but what I'm saying is that it's only one game and that game was against a much, much better team. We aren't even in the same league as UNC, literally. We don't play in front of 60k people every Saturday. When we're at home, we're lucky to draw 18k. On the road, we're lucky to see 7k. Playing against better players, better coaching and in a completely different atmosphere can make you look a lot worse than you are.

[VAGolf]

Sorry, I just have a hard time finding much fault with a QB who had an average game against a really good team. We aren't a good FBS team. We're an FCS team who struggles to make playoffs, and who's coach is just in his third year. I'm not celebrating only losing to UNC by 27 or anything, but at the same time, no one should be selling any stock in Woodrum or the team.

yeah, the problem is according to the brass we are "FBS READY". no more excuses. This must be a LU fan thing... happy to compete, glad to be here, "Win or Lose".

how bout a mindset of less losing and more winning.

I hope we aren't in "improve or get fired" mode with Gill yet. Organizational stability should be of high importance for those who want to succeed. If the program is a dumpster fire, like basketball, than I'm on board with finding someone else. We're a private institution, which limits are choices in head coaches. If coaches see us firing someone for every three years, no one will want to coach here.

We are in that mode. Every DI program is in that mode. There is way too much $ and resources tied up in the sport nowadays to go years for the sake of "Organizational stability". the kids are only here for 4-5 yrs... onwards and upwards.

if you aint goin forwards you're goin backwards.

being private doesnt limit us. In fact- our budget (read: open checkbook) and ability to make decisions overnight probably helps us. It also bites us in the arse from time to time but thats another story.[/quote]

Being private and religious automatically limits us. There are issues that we can't even control, because we're private and Christian. There are parents that won't even send their kids here because we're Liberty. We have some advantages too, but we're absolutely limited.

Also, if you've read most of my posts, I'm the one who is most fed up with our culture of "shared titles" and "quality losses." But the, "win or leave" mentality can be equally stupid.

[bluejacket]

Sure a good coach can win quickly, but not ALL good coaches do. Also, if we canned guys every three years, we would easily become one of the least desirable schools.

When Gill came here, there was plenty of talent to get into the playoffs immediately. We're in the Big South. The point is that we are seeing the same stagnation that has plagued us for more than 5 seasons. We beat garbage teams and lose to quality teams. That is not acceptable. We are already one of the most desirable FCS programs because we spend money on all aspects of the program. FCS powers don't even come close to us in spending. If Gill was fired tomorrow, there would be hundreds of applicants from all levels of college football and some from pro football. No one has said that Gill should be fired after this season. But if we don't make the playoffs, there will need to be some changes. And if the problem persists in future years, Gill should be held responsible as well.

I just don't think it's fair to talk about a coach being in a must win situation, after his first game in his third season. Not to mention, that game was against a really good FBS team. A game that we were winning in the third quarter. We should have never been in that game to begin with. Most of that team was around last season, when ODU had to quit after three quarters because they were down by 60. We have less scholarships than they do for one. Secondly, we aren't getting the same recruits that they are.

Stop making excuses for our team.

I don't know if Gill is a great coach or a bad coach. I don't know if Woodrum is the right quarterback to lead this offense. But why put Gill in a spot like that in only his third year, right after we played UNC? Why question our starting quarterback after that one game? Woodrum was a very borderline D1A recruit. Most of those UNC kids are 3 and 4 star athletes. If we would have been added to the Sun Belt, C-USA, MWC, WAC-East, or American conference five years ago, we still shouldn't have beaten UNC on Saturday. It's just a different level of competition. We aren't FBS yet, so, let's stop holding our coach and quarterback to those standards.

We just played UNC, and yet some of you are reacting as if we just played JMU.

Even more excuses. We need to hold our program and team accountable for underperforming. The expectations are conference titles, playoffs, and national championships and to prepare the team for moving to FBS.

Lastly, close losses and disappointing seasons go back to BEFORE Gill, and are evident in all of our sports. Turner Gill shouldn't be held responsible for rectifying a problem that is rampant through all of our athletics.

No one is holding Gill responsible for the other programs on campus. He only has one job, head football coach. The old staff had plenty of issues. But at least under Rocco, we beat some non-conference teams on the road. When Rocco came, we were a dumpster fire. When Gill came, we were borderline top 25 in the country.

[SuperJon]

The Gill thing is a totally different debate and I wasn't the one to bring it up, so I'm not going to jump in there.

However, the thing you can't wrap your head around is that we're not being critical because of the result. We're being critical because of the level of play, the mistakes we made, and the lack of improvement in critical areas.

You said, "Hold this offensive coaching staff (including TG) responsible for their inability to adapt and raise the unit's play. It's year three, improve or we can find someone else."

You might want to check your reading comprehension. I never said that.

[Purple Haize]

We are in that mode. Every DI program is in that mode. There is way too much $ and resources tied up in the sport nowadays to go years for the sake of "Organizational stability". the kids are only here for 4-5 yrs... onwards and upwards.

if you aint goin forwards you're goin backwards.

being private doesnt limit us. In fact- our budget (read: open checkbook) and ability to make decisions overnight probably helps us. It also bites us in the arse from time to time but thats another story.

This is what is wrong with LU's FB aspirations, and maybe in general. We think we can buy something without building something. Trying to buy athletic success rarely works. You any buy something pre-assembled. If we took a step back, let a coach build a PROGRAM, over the course of a few (5-8) years we would be much better served. If we feel we have the right person, which I think we do. We want to move up so badly we are attempting to do so with out the proper foundation. I think there is a Sunday School song and Bible reference that talks about houses on sand and/or rock. But I digress.
If we think TG is the guy to get it done, leave him be and let him do it. Wait until year 5 before we warm up his seat or whisper of his being canned. I know it's not 'The Liberty Way' but that way really hasn't been working.

[VAGolf]

Sure a good coach can win quickly, but not ALL good coaches do. Also, if we canned guys every three years, we would easily become one of the least desirable schools.

When Gill came here, there was plenty of talent to get into the playoffs immediately. We're in the Big South. The point is that we are seeing the same stagnation that has plagued us for more than 5 seasons. We beat garbage teams and lose to quality teams. That is not acceptable. We are already one of the most desirable FCS programs because we spend money on all aspects of the program. FCS powers don't even come close to us in spending. If Gill was fired tomorrow, there would be hundreds of applicants from all levels of college football and some from pro football. No one has said that Gill should be fired after this season. But if we don't make the playoffs, there will need to be some changes. And if the problem persists in future years, Gill should be held responsible as well.

I just don't think it's fair to talk about a coach being in a must win situation, after his first game in his third season. Not to mention, that game was against a really good FBS team. A game that we were winning in the third quarter. We should have never been in that game to begin with. Most of that team was around last season, when ODU had to quit after three quarters because they were down by 60. We have less scholarships than they do for one. Secondly, we aren't getting the same recruits that they are.

Stop making excuses for our team.

I don't know if Gill is a great coach or a bad coach. I don't know if Woodrum is the right quarterback to lead this offense. But why put Gill in a spot like that in only his third year, right after we played UNC? Why question our starting quarterback after that one game? Woodrum was a very borderline D1A recruit. Most of those UNC kids are 3 and 4 star athletes. If we would have been added to the Sun Belt, C-USA, MWC, WAC-East, or American conference five years ago, we still shouldn't have beaten UNC on Saturday. It's just a different level of competition. We aren't FBS yet, so, let's stop holding our coach and quarterback to those standards.

We just played UNC, and yet some of you are reacting as if we just played JMU.

Even more excuses. We need to hold our program and team accountable for underperforming. The expectations are conference titles, playoffs, and national championships and to prepare the team for moving to FBS.

Lastly, close losses and disappointing seasons go back to BEFORE Gill, and are evident in all of our sports. Turner Gill shouldn't be held responsible for rectifying a problem that is rampant through all of our athletics.

No one is holding Gill responsible for the other programs on campus. He only has one job, head football coach. The old staff had plenty of issues. But at least under Rocco, we beat some non-conference teams on the road. When Rocco came, we were a dumpster fire. When Gill came, we were borderline top 25 in the country.

You're confusing excuses with realistic standards. No one expects our basketball team to contend for the final four, why? Because we're a crappy team in the Big South that doesn't have the access that Kentucky and Duke has. Is that really an excuse? Or can we agree that our basketball team probably isn't ever going to contend at that level?

Obviously, that's a bit of a drastic comparison but my point is that we have standards. Not everything is an excuse.