[Yacht Rock]

leave the important discussions for the adults.

You mean the adults trying to argue that sexual preference is a choice? I chortle audibly..

I don't think that's an argument...or has been the crux of anyone's argument.

I think the key is to understand the difference between desire and action. Human beings, gay or straight have desires that can pull them apart from God. Whether we act on those desires is where the choice comes in.

As far as biblical support? When Adam was alone in the garden, God created the perfect companion for him in Eve. Did their relationship have troubles? Yeah. Did they eat a fruit they weren't supposed to? Yeah. But in the end, I think it's pretty clear what God's design for companionship has been.

For those that don't believe in God, then I think it's clear what nature's design for companionship has been.

Either way you look at it, I think it's pretty clear.

[RubberMallet]

see, you aren't even paying attention...like a jr higher.

Oh really?

Pretty sure I never chose to be attracted to men...

Possibly subconsciously?

Looks like you aren't paying attention...

do you even understand the implication? and as has already been pointed out, its not really all the relevant. Its already been established that science supports the idea that we may be born with certain proclivities. But all proclivities need to be nurtured to become habits whether good or bad.

[lynchburgwildcats]

I'll leave the topic with this.

Here are two facts accepted on this board or by biblical scholars
1) Sexual preference is not a choice, that people are born into it
2) The Bible has been interpreted to deem even homosexual desires to be a sin (and no, I am not saying that it is or isn't, just stating that it has been interpreted that way by some, and that's a fact)

With that in mind:
1) That would mean that in fact homosexuals are born as homosexuals
2) If God creates all human beings, that does in fact mean God creates homosexuals

my belief is that god cannot create a person to be gay, or a murderer, or anything sinful, because it violates His nature. That would make God a liar.

[LUconn]

I don't think you would find many people that find your first point as "accepted fact". I also don't think you'd find many on here that agree with jbock's quote. You're making broad generalizations and forgetting that the actual sinning is the act. Is being attracted to the same sex a sin? No. Could a person be born with that tendency? Maybe. I might even say probably. People are born with some predispositions and they're also born into a fallen world.

[jbock13]

I'll leave the topic with this.

Here are two facts accepted on this board or by biblical scholars
1) Sexual preference is not a choice, that people are born into it
2) The Bible has been interpreted to deem even homosexual desires to be a sin (and no, I am not saying that it is or isn't, just stating that it has been interpreted that way by some, and that's a fact)

With that in mind:
1) That would mean that in fact homosexuals are born as homosexuals
2) If God creates all human beings, that does in fact mean God creates homosexuals

my belief is that god cannot create a person to be gay, or a murderer, or anything sinful, because it violates His nature. That would make God a liar.

Once again, what is it with you and your friend, the straw man?

Here are two facts accepted on this board or by biblical scholars

What does that even mean? I'm my own man with my own opinions. Also, define the term, "biblical scholar." Or did you mean "biblical scholars who happen to agree with me?"

Secondly, I don't believe sexual desires are a sin. Acting on them is.

[BJWilliams]

I'll leave the topic with this.

Here are two facts accepted on this board or by biblical scholars
1) Sexual preference is not a choice, that people are born into it
2) The Bible has been interpreted to deem even homosexual desires to be a sin (and no, I am not saying that it is or isn't, just stating that it has been interpreted that way by some, and that's a fact)

With that in mind:
1) That would mean that in fact homosexuals are born as homosexuals
2) If God creates all human beings, that does in fact mean God creates homosexuals

my belief is that god cannot create a person to be gay, or a murderer, or anything sinful, because it violates His nature. That would make God a liar.

Once again, what is it with you and your friend, the straw man?

Here are two facts accepted on this board or by biblical scholars

What does that even mean? I'm my own man with my own opinions. Also, define the term, "biblical scholar." Or did you mean "biblical scholars who happen to agree with me?"

Secondly, I don't believe sexual desires are a sin. Acting on them is.

This is a correct statement. A number of us on this board are married men (some more recently than others). Im sure any one of us on here could say that the fact that we sexually desire our wives is not a bad thing. We also have desires toward other women and some of us, other men. That in ant of itself, as jbock noted, is not sin. Now if I saw a young lady and I lusted after her, that would be sin (as according to the verse in Matthew where Jesus talks about lusting after a woman in your heart). It would also be sin if I slept with any other woman than my wife because I acted on my sexual desires in that way.

[lynchburgwildcats]

I don't think you would find many people that find your first point as "accepted fact".

I'm going by what seems to be the consensus from most of who have said anything to that nature on this board, seeing as how that's the people I am discussing this with.

[lynchburgwildcats]

Also, define the term, "biblical scholar."

People who research and analyze the Bible as their profession, you know like college professors, PhDs, etc.

[RubberMallet]

pffflol

[Purple Haize]

Oops

[Purple Haize]

My initial request from when I first came out on this board still stands: show me how the Bible has not been misintrepreted by the modern church about homosexuality. I think the church throughout history has also proven itself to be untrustworthy with interpreting the Bible.

Point of order. As the one claiming aggrieved status it is incumbent upon you to posit your position and the Scripture verses that support homosexuality Biblically. Your last statement is very broad so please keep it defined to the topic of Biblically based homosexuality and not errors of interpretations you feel the church has made. I think we are all still ticked at the flat earth thing!

Now, back to my Liberace collection ......

[lynchburgwildcats]

My initial request from when I first came out on this board still stands: show me how the Bible has not been misintrepreted by the modern church about homosexuality. I think the church throughout history has also proven itself to be untrustworthy with interpreting the Bible.

Point of order. As the one claiming aggrieved status it is incumbent upon you to posit your position and the Scripture verses that support homosexuality Biblically. Your last statement is very broad so please keep it defined to the topic of Biblically based homosexuality and not errors of interpretations you feel the church has made. I think we are all still ticked at the flat earth thing!

Now, back to my Liberace collection ......

On the surface, you appear to confuse lack of condonation (yes, it's a real word, so look it up before trying to say it's not a real word) with condemnation. One does not automatically equal the other.

But I must ask you to point me to Biblical scripture that condemns homosexuality without any shadow of a doubt based on the consensus opinion, research, and educated interpretation from knowledgeable and respected preachers, pastors, and Biblical scholars.

Good luck.

[jbock13]

But I must ask you to point me to Biblical scripture that condemns homosexuality without any shadow of a doubt based on the consensus opinion, research, and educated interpretation from knowledgeable and respected preachers, pastors, and Biblical scholars.

Good luck.

Really? I pity the person who even tries to have a reasonable debate with you. Just look at all the qualifiers you placed on your own question. Loaded or complex question.

[Purple Haize]

But I must ask you to point me to Biblical scripture that condemns homosexuality without any shadow of a doubt based on the consensus opinion, research, and educated interpretation from knowledgeable and respected preachers, pastors, and Biblical scholars.

Good luck.

Really? I pity the person who even tries to have a reasonable debate with you. Just look at all the qualifiers you placed on your own question. Loaded or complex question.

You keep this up you will need to go to Trolls Anonymous meetings. It sort of reminds me of carp when you throw popcorn in the water

[jbock13]

But I must ask you to point me to Biblical scripture that condemns homosexuality without any shadow of a doubt based on the consensus opinion, research, and educated interpretation from knowledgeable and respected preachers, pastors, and Biblical scholars.

Good luck.

Really? I pity the person who even tries to have a reasonable debate with you. Just look at all the qualifiers you placed on your own question. Loaded or complex question.

You keep this up you will need to go to Trolls Anonymous meetings. It sort of reminds me of carp when you throw popcorn in the water

As a fellow "resident blowhard", you ought to know yourself

[Purple Haize]

A blow hard is NOT a troll! It's like comparing TJ Maxx to Nordstroms! Ha

[lynchburgwildcats]

But I must ask you to point me to Biblical scripture that condemns homosexuality without any shadow of a doubt based on the consensus opinion, research, and educated interpretation from knowledgeable and respected preachers, pastors, and Biblical scholars.

Good luck.

Really? I pity the person who even tries to have a reasonable debate with you. Just look at all the qualifiers you placed on your own question. Loaded or complex question.

And you just indirectly proved my point. Thanks. - and that's not sarcasm clapping

[jbock13]

Wah? hahah

[Yacht Rock]

And you just indirectly proved my point. Thanks. - and that's not sarcasm clapping

I think the point is you've made yourself impossible to debate. Not sure if you're a troll or not but you're coming across as such.

Personally, I've given you evidence of God's design for romantic relationships and marriage but you have chosen to ignore that, I suppose.

[jbock13]

And you just indirectly proved my point. Thanks. - and that's not sarcasm clapping

I think the point is you've made yourself impossible to debate. Not sure if you're a troll or not but you're coming across as such.

Personally, I've given you evidence of God's design for romantic relationships and marriage but you have chosen to ignore that, I suppose.

You see, he only reads things by people who agree with him, cherry picker extraordinaire.

[BJWilliams]

And for the record YR he is a troll...he has been banned from this site more than all but one person in the history of this forum

[JK37]

I must ask you to point me to Biblical scripture that condemns homosexuality without any shadow of a doubt based on the consensus opinion, research, and educated interpretation from knowledgeable and respected preachers, pastors, and Biblical scholars.

Good luck.

To all: I don't consider lw's question trolling. And even if it is, and even if he denies what we show him and others who ask the same question, we still bear an obligation to answer coherently and intelligently when he asks - if we're right. He and others like him who ask give us an open door. We're WRONG if we don't snatch the opportunity, whether he chooses to be convinced in the end or not.

So, I'll take a shot...

[JK37]

“But,” he said “the things which go out from a man, these pollute a man. For from within, from the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, avarice, wickedness, deceitfulness, homosexuality, an evil eye, blasphemy, self-exaltation, foolishness. All these evils procede from within and pollute a man.” (Mark 7:20-23 CPDV)

For the flesh desires against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. And since these are against one another, you may not do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest; they are: fornication, lust, homosexuality, self-indulgence, the serving of idols, drug use, hostility, contentiousness, jealousy, wrath, quarrels, dissensions, divisions, envy, murder, inebriation, carousing, and similar things. About these things, I continue to preach to you, as I have preached to you: that those who act in this way shall not obtain the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:17-21 CPDV)

Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. (1 Timothy 1:8-11 ESV)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

Have you ever thought that we should explain ourselves to you? We speak in the sight of God, in Christ. But all things, most beloved, are for your edification. Yet I fear, lest perhaps, when I have arrived, I might not find you such as I would want, and I might be found by you, such as you would not want. For perhaps there may be among you: contention, envy, animosity, dissension, detraction, whispering, self-exaltation, and rebellion. If so, then, when I have arrived, God may again humble me among you. And so, I mourn for the many who sinned beforehand, and did not repent, over the lust and fornication and homosexuality, which they have committed. (2 Corinthians 12:19-21 CPDV)

[flamehunter]

Well done, JK.

[Purple Haize]

And you just indirectly proved my point. Thanks. - and that's not sarcasm clapping

I think the point is you've made yourself impossible to debate. Not sure if you're a troll or not but you're coming across as such.

Personally, I've given you evidence of God's design for romantic relationships and marriage but you have chosen to ignore that, I suppose.

He's a proud, card carrying self confessed Troll. Stick around you will learn all our foibles. JBock and I are considered Blow Hards and SLY is never wrong