[ATrain]

Well I agree that the government should just get out of marriage and leave it to the churches, and that if people want their relationship to have any legal status then it must be done separately through the state.

However, I am going to disagree with you on your view of relationships and we are just going to have to agree to disagree there.

[jbock13]

when you try to enforce your view on others, then its a problem.

Isn't that what voting and government is about? People vote on a viewpoint or they can choose not to vote on a viewpoint. In this case, they did. How is that a problem?

Because its denying civil rights to a certain class of people, on the basis of religion no less. People voted to have slavery, for segregation, not having interracial marriage, not allowing women the right to vote, etc...

Saying it's civil rights is You still choose who you sleep with. You don't choose your skin color. Of course, I really don't care much either way as I've stated many times on here, but that's an absolutely absurd comparison to the discrimination blacks went through based on a characteristic that was no different than anyone else (just a darker skin pigmentation).

The only valid argument of discrimination is that gays do not have the tax benefits given to straight couples, I'm okay with fixing that at a state level. It's common sense, and just the right thing to do.

With all due respect

I agree with Yacht that government should get out of marriage, but as Yacht has experienced in California, there is a notion that some have that everything should be equal, even if it already is, like some kindergarten prism view of the world. The problem, is when the gay activists (who are really just the everything should be equal crowd), are themselves the cause normal everyday people who despise gays.

But ATrain is of course above that, and I'm glad we can always civilly argue about it. As for the biblical right or wrong, it's already been discussed before, no need to bring it up again.

[Yacht Rock]

Well I agree that the government should just get out of marriage and leave it to the churches, and that if people want their relationship to have any legal status then it must be done separately through the state.

Personally, I think that people should be able to become "financial" partners individually regardless of marriage. For instance, I have an aunt who could be referred to as asexual. If she wanted to partner with her elderly neighbor or my other aunt, and combine income, taxes, be beneficiaries and have the "legal" choices over one another without being married, they should be able to.

I think that the idea that people need to enter into a romantic and sexual relationship for tax benefits and legal benefits is sort of funny, straight or gay.

The problem is it becomes a much bigger issue when you start talking about collecting social security and retirement benefits, etc.

[jack_sparrow81]

so when all the states end up legalizing it and a gay couple wants to get married in a church, and the church declines, does this mean that the government can step in and "force" the church to marry the couple-possibly by taking away their tax exemption status if they choose to decline?

[jbock13]

so when all the states end up legalizing it and a gay couple wants to get married in a church, and the church declines, does this mean that the government can step in and "force" the church to marry the couple-possibly by taking away their tax exemption status if they choose to decline?

You may be on to something here.

[ATrain]

so when all the states end up legalizing it and a gay couple wants to get married in a church, and the church declines, does this mean that the government can step in and "force" the church to marry the couple-possibly by taking away their tax exemption status if they choose to decline?

Nope. The government cant force a church to marry anyone now.

[flamehunter]

Forget marrying them, the church will be forced to abstain from calling it sin. That will be labeled hate speech and eventually the Supreme Court will have to decide if freedom of religion will be over ridden by peoples right to "love" whoever they want. Can a church deny membership or employment to gays? The implications will be huge in my opinion. A lot of these things have already come to pass in Europe.

[Yacht Rock]

so when all the states end up legalizing it and a gay couple wants to get married in a church, and the church declines, does this mean that the government can step in and "force" the church to marry the couple-possibly by taking away their tax exemption status if they choose to decline?

Many who support same sex marriage would say that no one would do that. I would argue that no one would think the government would be forcing faith based institutions to provide services contrary to their beliefs in regards to healthcare but here we are.

[lynchburgwildcats]

Isn't that what voting and government is about? People vote on a viewpoint or they can choose not to vote on a viewpoint. In this case, they did. How is that a problem?

Because its denying civil rights to a certain class of people, on the basis of religion no less. People voted to have slavery, for segregation, not having interracial marriage, not allowing women the right to vote, etc...

Saying it's civil rights is You still choose who you sleep with.

So when did you make the conscious decision to be straight instead of gay? Or gay instead of straight (since I don't know if which one you are)?

[Yacht Rock]

I wonder if Elena Kagan will recuse herself......

LOL...I missed this earlier. I read somewhere someone was complaining that Clarence Thomas didn't recuse himself from the affirmative action ruling.

[lynchburgwildcats]

so when all the states end up legalizing it and a gay couple wants to get married in a church, and the church declines, does this mean that the government can step in and "force" the church to marry the couple-possibly by taking away their tax exemption status if they choose to decline?

Who says you have to get married at a church or by a church minister (or whatever each religion or sect chooses to call that person)?

[Purple Haize]

so when all the states end up legalizing it and a gay couple wants to get married in a church, and the church declines, does this mean that the government can step in and "force" the church to marry the couple-possibly by taking away their tax exemption status if they choose to decline?

Because President Barak Obama promised he wouldn't force any church to do that. And he's so super trust worthy

[jbock13]

As I've said before, my belief is that god cannot create a person to be gay, or a murderer, or anything sinful, because it violates His nature. That would make God a liar. The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, just like any other transgression.

[lynchburgwildcats]

As I've said before, my belief is that god cannot create a person to be gay, or a murderer, or anything sinful, because it violates His nature. That would make God a liar. The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, just like any other transgression.

But he created them to have that capability. If I created something that did wrong under my watch, that would not absolve me from any wrong doing.

[thepostman]

Now now shuk...that last comment wasn't necessary. taking the high road would have served you better. You know the saying, "Do not argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Thank you for taking the time to look up "illegalize" and letting it be known that it is a real word, but you certainly were quick to give up any high ground you could have gained by doing that.

I find it funny that you were telling people to take the high road...

As for the gay rights debate its tired and old. I don't personally agree with it but I also don't personally agree with a lot of things people do that are legal. Its not worth my time to get all upset about it...unless of course they start forcing churches to conduct weddings then that is a whole different issues, but unless that happens then there really is not much for me to debate.


just my 2 cents...

[jbock13]

As I've said before, my belief is that god cannot create a person to be gay, or a murderer, or anything sinful, because it violates His nature. That would make God a liar. The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, just like any other transgression.

But he created them to have that capability. If I created something that did wrong under my watch, that would not absolve me from any wrong doing.

Because of free will, we can choose what is wrong. God does not program us to choose wrong.

[ATrain]

As I've said before, my belief is that god cannot create a person to be gay, or a murderer, or anything sinful, because it violates His nature. That would make God a liar. The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, just like any other transgression.

But he created them to have that capability. If I created something that did wrong under my watch, that would not absolve me from any wrong doing.

Because of free will, we can choose what is wrong. God does not program us to choose wrong.

Pretty sure I never chose to be attracted to men, just like you never chose to be attracted to women. Of course we can also debate Biblical interpretation and context till we're blue in the face (or our fingers fall off from typing), but really, that's not going to change anything.

[jbock13]

My argument is based on God's creation of individuals, not our collective choices. It's true we often choose wrong, but God is not the author of any sin.

As for interpretation and context, yeah I know we won't go down that road. Besides its been discussed numerous times before.

[ATrain]

My argument is based on God's creation of individuals, not our collective choices. It's true we often choose wrong, but God is not the author of any sin.

As for interpretation and context, yeah I know we won't go down that road. Besides its been discussed numerous times before.

And my argument is that homosexuality is not sin and people are indeed born gay. Science is beginning support this argument. Gay men have a different brain structure (http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 38,00.html), plus it is influenced by hormones in the womb (http://evolequals.com/2012/09/04/sexual ... -the-womb/)

[Yacht Rock]

Isn't every human born to have sinful desires after the fall? That is why we need Christ. It's not always how we feel but what we do with those feelings, therein lies the choice and free will.

[ATrain]

So God creates people with different brain structures so they can have a desire for a companion but then denies them the ability to have that desire fulfilled while allowing others to have it fulfilled? Sorry, He doesn't operate that way.

[Yacht Rock]

So God creates people with different brain structures so they can have a desire for a companion but then denies them the ability to have that desire fulfilled while allowing others to have it fulfilled? Sorry, He doesn't operate that way.

You don't believe that people have desires that they shouldn't act out on? Let me ask you this, do you believe that, as long as someone is born with their brain "wired" toward a certain feeling or behavior, does that automatically validate that feeling or behavior? I'm just curious if you draw a line at any point.

[ATrain]

There are lines that do get drawn, but you're missing the whole crux of the argument. Sexuality is built-in, something you're hardwired for. Other desires...such as the desire to murder, cheat, etc...are not naturally ingrained but must be brought out by circumstance or emotion.

[ALUmnus]

Other desires...such as the desire to murder, cheat, etc...are not naturally ingrained but must be brought out by circumstance or emotion.

Some "scientists" and psychiatrists would disagree with that. And should God be okay with someone who is single all their lives to dally with a prostitute, you know, just to fulfill their all-natural desires? Atrain, you've stretched the Bible so out of shape to fit your sin it's unrecognizable (and untrustworthy, which you've basically acknowledged).

As for all the "keep the state out of marriage" folks. This sounds so good and libertarian and all, but I think you miss the whole reason that the state is involved, and ALWAYS has been. Just as the state is involved in keeping the streets clear of crime, it's in the best interest of society. A whole book could be written about why that is, and any action by society to weaken marriage is done so at its own harm.

[ATrain]

Other desires...such as the desire to murder, cheat, etc...are not naturally ingrained but must be brought out by circumstance or emotion.

Some "scientists" and psychiatrists would disagree with that. And should God be okay with someone who is single all their lives to dally with a prostitute, you know, just to fulfill their all-natural desires? Atrain, you've stretched the Bible so out of shape to fit your sin it's unrecognizable (and untrustworthy, which you've basically acknowledged).

As for all the "keep the state out of marriage" folks. This sounds so good and libertarian and all, but I think you miss the whole reason that the state is involved, and ALWAYS has been. Just as the state is involved in keeping the streets clear of crime, it's in the best interest of society. A whole book could be written about why that is, and any action by society to weaken marriage is done so at its own harm.

All I hear is a sheep bleating: homosexuals bad, heterosexuals good. This is what my pastor taught me. We are talking about a committed relationship between two, consenting adults. The arguments about prostitution/other behaviors is dragging the debate down a slippery slope.

My initial request from when I first came out on this board still stands: show me how the Bible has not been misintrepreted by the modern church about homosexuality. I think the church throughout history has also proven itself to be untrustworthy with interpreting the Bible.

Furthermore, as a society, marriage is already weak to begin with. See: Britney Spears, Donald Trump, Newt Gingrich, etc... How would allowing two people of the same gender and age of consent get married weaken it anymore?