[Sly Fox]

I know many on the board have some strong opinions on both sides about this whistle-blowing scandal. I've seen them expressed on Facebook.

In my opinion, this story is bizarre on multiple fronts. I wish I could say I am surprised about the surveillance but that would be an exaggeration. What surprises me is this guy who doesn't seem qualified to work at a Dairy Queen would somehow be given this incredible untethered access.

Thoughts?

[ALUmnus]

Honestly, I don't know how anybody could be surprised at all this surveillance/spying. That in no way makes it right, but I've always just kind of expected that the spying agencies had this kind of access to pretty much anything. And social media has made it all that easier. It wouldn't surprise me if non-Intelligence agencies had this kind of access (IRS, etc). I would just really like the feds to put an end to the domestic spying and concentrate on protecting us from China doing this to us.

As for the whistleblower, it just makes me feel that much more pathetic that he's been able acheive such a career.

Here's a quick 12-minute podcast from someone who actually works knee-deep in cyber-security and what he thinks about it: http://coffeeandmarkets.com/2013/06/10/ ... velations/

[Purple Haize]

My first negative on the guy was when he was appalled that in the recruitment of a foreign agent, the recruiter encouraged him to get behind the wheel after he'd been drinking, and then after he was surprisingly pulled over, made the charges go away! He was horrified at that? Typical SIGINT nerd.
While some may feel its a small distinction, I sort of draw the line at unfettered snooping of American citizens. I don't care what we see, snoop or read from non Citizens but think being an American citizen entails certain rights and privileges. Bush, IMO, got right to the edge of that by listening to only phone calls made by foreigners to Americans, but obviously the ability to do more was there. Obama had 5 years to get rid of this program and didn't. Can't 'Blame Bush' on this one.
There is a possible legal justification for the snooping. Phone and Internet records could be considered business documents of the providers used thus not subject to the stringent guidelines needed for an individual. I don't buy It but it can be a good argument
Finally, tie all this together with the Fast and Furious, Bengazai, IRS, AP, Rosen and now this yu can see that the President is living up to his promise to fundamentally transform America.

[jbock13]

But Bush did start this program. And the TSA. And now the same people who thought it was okay under Bush complain about both. Sure Obama lied. But Democrats lying about cutting government? Come on. Surely not everybody was that stupid. Even though they probably really believed it.

[Purple Haize]

But Bush did start this program. And the TSA. And now the same people who thought it was okay under Bush complain about both. Sure Obama lied. But Democrats lying about cutting government? Come on. Surely not everybody was that stupid. Even though they probably really believed it.

Bush started the program and put parameters around it and a time frame. This President acts like they don't exist. It may seem like a small difference but its actually quite big.
As for the TSA iIRC, that was a compromise to get something else passed. The TSA has a few good people in it but would be better if it was gone. And those good people would make serious coin doing it privately.

[LUconn]

If Libertarians can't seriously contend in 2014 after both D and R have shown they are for this, why do they even exist? This is their short window to relevancy before everybody forgets about this.

[Purple Haize]

If Libertarians can't seriously contend in 2014 after both D and R have shown they are for this, why do they even exist? This is their short window to relevancy before everybody forgets about this.

I agree to a point. I disagree when you lump all R and D's into it. The majority of lawmakers, R at least, looked at the Patriot Act and FISA courts for use in rare cases where officials needed to go to the extreme. In fact the law even states that it does NOT provide for and is illegal to do what the current Administration has done. There has always been the capacity to do this type of data collection, but there has never been a mandate, until now, to do so. Again look at the pattern of this administration of invading privacy for its own purposes. We've come a long way since those FBI files magically appeared in Hillary's part of the WH residence........
As for Libertarians I agree that these upcoming elections will be key to the relevance of at least the philosophy if not necessarily the Party. Rand Paul is doing an excellent job, IMO, positioning himself for 2016. He distances himself from the crazy parts of his dad so that he can deliver the more important parts of the ideology. Oh, btw, he's a Republican, so make sure you don't lump all in together.

[NotAJerry]

Touches on several key issues and rightly asks who will stop what the NSA is doing instead of trying to excuse what either GWB or O has done.

Snowden, much like Bradley Manning, should be considered a hero for standing up against evil.

[Purple Haize]

The information Bradley Manning leaked led directly to the deaths of Americans. Snowdens information has not. That is a HUGE difference. I would not put those two in the same category.

[LUconn]

yeah, not sure how anybody considers Manning a hero. 200 years ago he would have been hung.

[jbock13]

The information Bradley Manning leaked led directly to the deaths of Americans. Snowdens information has not. That is a HUGE difference. I would not put those two in the same category.

Correct.

[Purple Haize]

yeah, not sure how anybody considers Manning a hero. 200 years ago he would have been hung.

And then only in a plea bargain to take Quartering off the table!

[RubberMallet]

[Purple Haize]

I'd be in that shift. I have 0 problem with NSA surveillance on non Americans. I have a huge problem with NSA surveillance on Americans with out probable cause and a warrant. You know, the whole 4th Amendment thing. I do find the Democratic shift interesting. Not sure how that can be anything but political.

[Humble_Opinion]

I'd be in that shift. I have 0 problem with NSA surveillance on non Americans. I have a huge problem with NSA surveillance on Americans with out probable cause and a warrant. You know, the whole 4th Amendment thing. I do find the Democratic shift interesting. Not sure how that can be anything but political.

+1

[jbock13]

The only reason why Libertarians cannot compete with the major parties is because the actual Libertarian Party is run by crackheads. But then again, I don't believe in compromising my principles to win elections. Plus you have the whole abortion split.

[NotAJerry]

The information Bradley Manning leaked led directly to the deaths of Americans. Snowdens information has not. That is a HUGE difference. I would not put those two in the same category.

And how many Iraqi, Pakistani, and Afghan civilians lives were saved by the Manning leaks? That's at least as important as American troops lives if we're viewing things biblically. Manning helped confirm some pure evil being done by US "heroes." I have far more respect for what he did than for those who murder brown people because someone in a matching outfit told them to.

[ALUmnus]

Brown People.
Racism.
Evil.

[LUconn]

those who murder brown people because someone in a matching outfit told them to.

fantastic summary of the military. A West Point grad couldn't have summed up the complex workings any better.

[Purple Haize]

The information Bradley Manning leaked led directly to the deaths of Americans. Snowdens information has not. That is a HUGE difference. I would not put those two in the same category.

And how many Iraqi, Pakistani, and Afghan civilians lives were saved by the Manning leaks? That's at least as important as American troops lives if we're viewing things biblically. Manning helped confirm some pure evil being done by US "heroes." I have far more respect for what he did than for those who murder brown people because someone in a matching outfit told them to.

How many Iraqi's were saved because we removed Sadaam? How many fewer dead and mutilated women are their in Afghanistan because we fought the Taliban? The Republican Guard and the Taliban were the only ones who 'murder brown people because someone in a matching outfit told them to.'

[jbock13]

Race card. Nice play!

In case you didn't know, Arabs are considered white.

[Purple Haize]

Race card. Nice play!

In case you didn't know, Arabs are considered white.

Is that why Africa is often referred to in 2 parts: Black Africa and Arab Africa?

[jbock13]

Race card. Nice play!

In case you didn't know, Arabs are considered white.

Is that why Africa is often referred to in 2 parts: Black Africa and Arab Africa?

Partly. But in essence yes. They're seperate in language, seperate in culture, and, until recently, seperate in religion.

[Yacht Rock]

This has devolved quickly.

I think there are a few reasons for the shift in feelings toward snooping. First, I agree with Haize in that I think a lot feel differently about snooping on Americans versus snooping on foreigners. I also think that, whereas in the last administration, the "enemy" was Islamic terrorists whereas this administration has referred to conservatives as "the enemy." That kind of rhetoric I think causes conservatives to give more pause to what this type of information is used for and the intentions behind them. Especially after seeing what the IRS has done, I think it is reasonable for conservatives to change their mind.

[Purple Haize]

This has devolved quickly.

I think there are a few reasons for the shift in feelings toward snooping. First, I agree with Haize in that I think a lot feel differently about snooping on Americans versus snooping on foreigners. I also think that, whereas in the last administration, the "enemy" was Islamic terrorists whereas this administration has referred to conservatives as "the enemy." That kind of rhetoric I think causes conservatives to give more pause to what this type of information is used for and the intentions behind them. Especially after seeing what the IRS has done, I think it is reasonable for conservatives to change their mind.

That's just the road lag talking. I like the rest of your post, especially on defining who The Enemy is.