[SuperJon]

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. - Proverbs 6:16-19

Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. - 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

Those are the two easiest to point to.

[LUconn]

It's funny to juxtapose 2013 SJ with transfer from CCU SJ. You've basically turned into Tally whom you used to constantly disagree with.

I think we've headed down a rabbit trail though. Not really one of the dozens of directions I had foreseen this thing going.

[Purple Haize]

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. - Proverbs 6:16-19

Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. - 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

Those are the two easiest to point to.

Ironically the post I made before Elton John but didn't show up
Your proverbs quote is a nice poetic interpretation of The Big 10. Your Corinthians quote emphasis sexual immorality of ANY kind.
Neither verse lists, ranks or compares one sin to another.

[NotAJerry]

Is there a single secondary theological issue you won't badger people to death over?

You're more than welcome to contribute to the conversation. I do, though, take the twisting of Scripture seriously, as I hope you do too.

Tell me, NAJ, if someone you know who claims to be a brother in Christ is openly living in sin....what does the Bible offer as instruction? Ignore it? Help that brother to like himself? I'm open to suggestions.

You're entire purpose seems to take any secondary theological issue and disparage everyone you can over it. Humble people can't be humble if they're of one theological persuasion. Gay Christians can't be honestly interpreting Scripture a certain way while they try to understand who they are and what that means for all aspects of their life, including their faith.

For the record, I disagree with ATrain's understanding of the quoted passage as he's using a trajectory hermeneutic based on cultural norms and I don't believe that's the appropriate approach to the passage. It's not an issue of salvation, it's one of sanctification and therefore it's a secondary (but important) issue. It's definitely not something to cause some passive aggressive quip where you're clearly, intentionally attacking a brother in Christ.

Wake me up when you're a persistent in nagging people to death about much more pervasive sins in the American church, like gluttony.

[jbock13]

Just because you don't like talking about it doesn't mean anyone else should be prevented from discussing it, NAJ.

And who knew that disagreeing with someone is "intentionally attacking a brother of Christ"?

I know you're directing that at alumnus but as Christians we should strive to learn about our God and the laws of His universe. It crumbles down when certainly people come in and say, "you can't discuss that!" Sure we can. We all can learn from the Bible, and we can also learn from others who have a different interpretation of scripture. And then, we can actually agree or disagree with that person, respectfully. How cool is that! I didn't agree with SJ but did you see me lose my temper over it? Of course not.

[Yacht Rock]

I think the reason people get up in arms about this is that it deals with the acceptance of sin without repentance.

I'll give you an example, if I had sinful behavior in my life, recognized that behavior as sin, and asked God for forgiveness and worked to remove that sin from my life, that is one thing.

If I had sinful behavior in my life, but chose to say that there is nothing wrong with my behavior, thus, never asking for forgiveness and never trying to remove it from my life, that is another.

The issue is whether people believe it is in fact a sin or not, not what weight the sin may have.

If I were to tell lies each and every day, or developed a drinking problem, I would expect my Christian brother to come up alongside me and say, "Yacht Rock, get yourself together man."

I think that many of us, recognize when we sin, and with that sin comes guilt and repentance. I can tell you, before I was believer, I didn't feel the need to repent for many things because I didn't feel there was an issue with my behavior. Through a relationship with Christ, I can hear the Holy Spirit convict me many times.

But when we sin, and feel no need to repent, where does that leave us? For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, basically they are seeing fellow men who are refusing to repent.

I think at the end of the day, the common ground we need to reach is in the definition of sin. What is sin? What does God call out as unclean? If we don't know what to repent for, where does that leave us? While Jesus died for our sins and transgressions, what does it mean to be sanctified?

I think these are the questions to answer. At the end of the day, if someone doesn't believe what they are doing is wrong, they are never going to ask for forgiveness and is bound to keep on sinning.

When specific sin becomes pervasive in someone's life, I think we have the authority of Christ to help each other out. I have never read any scripture that says we should never recognize sin amongst each other. The Word does speak to doing it from a place of humbleness and not from a more pious place. In the end, we all sin and have to ask for God's forgiveness. No one is above that. That is the key when dealing with sin.

Personally, when it comes to marriage and romantic, sexual relationships, God lays out his perfect plan for us in Genesis with man and woman becoming one flesh. I don't believe that relationships outside of that context are part of God's plan. I believe they are more a result of Man's nature and occurred after the fall. Since they fall outside the perfect holiness of God, I believe it is a sin. Do I know? No. I don't know for a fact. But, I suppose as Christians we have to make those calls everyday. What do I endorse? What don't I endorse?

[Purple Haize]

I usually endorse checks.

[Yacht Rock]

I usually endorse checks.

What's this "check" you speak up? I do everything electronically these days.

[ALUmnus]

Clearly, being gay is the worst one.

See, that's partly the point. No one is saying that. No one has ever said that. But what people are trying to say is that it's not a sin at all. Hence, the problem.

By the way, the generic old deflection to gluttony is hilarious. Might as well march out the old shelfish defense, too.

[Purple Haize]

Clearly, being gay is the worst one.

See, that's partly the point. No one is saying that. No one has ever said that. But what people are trying to say is that it's not a sin at all. Hence, the problem.

By the way, the generic old deflection to gluttony is hilarious. Might as well march out the old shelfish defense, too.

Is smoking a sin? Drinking? Telling you boss you are sick when you are really playing golf?

[ALUmnus]

Clearly, being gay is the worst one.

See, that's partly the point. No one is saying that. No one has ever said that. But what people are trying to say is that it's not a sin at all. Hence, the problem.

By the way, the generic old deflection to gluttony is hilarious. Might as well march out the old shelfish defense, too.

Is smoking a sin? Drinking? Telling you boss you are sick when you are really playing golf?

Feel free to start a thread on all of those. This seems to be the favorite course of avoiding the subject.

[Purple Haize]

No. Sin and its lack of degrees is what I'm pointing out.

[SuperJon]

Smoking is a gray area (yes, those do exist).

Drinking is not a sin. Being drunk is.

Lying is a sin.

[JK37]

Smoking is a gray area (yes, those do exist).

Drinking is not a sin. Being drunk is.

Lying is a sin.

Not to parse words or send us too far down a separate rabbit trail...but if one is going to list smoking as a gray area, alchohol comsumption (at any level) is, as well. No question that drunkenness is sin, as you have pointed out. But, a reasonable inference can be made from Scripture that drinking any alcohol at all is wrong. Therefore, it is a gray area, as some do not interpret Scripture this way.

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights,
and your mind will imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt!
They beat me, but I don’t feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?”
New International Version

I'm not wholly disagreeing with you: I'm simply stating a position that sees alcohol consumption at any rate to be sinful. In the interest of full disclosure, this is my position. I infer from the verse bolded in the passage above to read, "Don't even look at it."

And since this position can be held, and is in fact still held by many christians today, drinking must be considered still a gray area. Scripture is simply not as cut-and-dried on this issue as it is on many others.

[TH Spangler]

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights,
and your mind will imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt!
They beat me, but I don’t feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?”
New International Version

Did Solomon write this after a NASCAR race ....

I got talked into Martinsville again on Sunday, long story ..... and Jonathan Falwell was there, so was Mark Burnett and Roma Downey. Pretty cool.

By the way Danica is for real ....

Purple you were not the only one enjoy a wild weekend ....

[Purple Haize]

I am not a fan of the Red Wines. Unless its UB40!

While I've driven on a NASCAR track in various vehicles I have yet to attend my first race.

[SuperJon]

Smoking is a gray area (yes, those do exist).

Drinking is not a sin. Being drunk is.

Lying is a sin.

Not to parse words or send us too far down a separate rabbit trail...but if one is going to list smoking as a gray area, alchohol comsumption (at any level) is, as well. No question that drunkenness is sin, as you have pointed out. But, a reasonable inference can be made from Scripture that drinking any alcohol at all is wrong. Therefore, it is a gray area, as some do not interpret Scripture this way.

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights,
and your mind will imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt!
They beat me, but I don’t feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?”
New International Version

I'm not wholly disagreeing with you: I'm simply stating a position that sees alcohol consumption at any rate to be sinful. In the interest of full disclosure, this is my position. I infer from the verse bolded in the passage above to read, "Don't even look at it."

And since this position can be held, and is in fact still held by many christians today, drinking must be considered still a gray area. Scripture is simply not as cut-and-dried on this issue as it is on many others.

If we're sticking with only Proverbs, then there's this:

Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more. - Proverbs 31:6-7

When looking at the Law, you have to look and see if it was a cultural law, governmental law, or ethical law. If it was cultural or governmental, it doesn't apply anymore. If it was ethical, you then go to the New Testament to see what Jesus and the Apostles said about it. If they confirmed it - obey it. If they offered a change to it (i.e. Peter's vision about food that we can eat) then obey what they said. If the New Testament doesn't say anything about it, then you have a gray area.

We don't live under the same covenant as the Old Testament. This is why anyone using Leviticus to dispute homosexuality is an idiot and doesn't know what they're talking about.

I say all of this having never taken a sip of alcohol my entire life. I don't think it's a sin, just not a good idea for me to do.

[BJWilliams]

Jon pretty well articulated my feelings on alcohol consumption...of course I have only consumed it twice, once at my grandfather's funeral when I was 9 and they performed the Eucharist, and once when I was visiting Holy Cross Catholic Church where they also did that. I have never consumed alcohol for social reasons and if I die having never done so, I will be perfectly fine with that.

[TH Spangler]

I am not a fan of the Red Wines. Unless its UB40!

While I've driven on a NASCAR track in various vehicles I have yet to attend my first race.

Guess who Jonathan was hanging out with. Frank Beamer. Ha ha. Probably politicking for LU to FBS.

[Purple Haize]

I am not a fan of the Red Wines. Unless its UB40!

While I've driven on a NASCAR track in various vehicles I have yet to attend my first race.

Guess who Jonathan was hanging out with. Frank Beamer. Ha ha. Probably politicking for LU to FBS.

Beamer is a NASCAR guy. He goes to the race in Vegas every year as well.

[alabama24]

I'm pretty sure Jesus is OK with alcohol. He did turn water into wine after all.

[TallyW]

It's funny to juxtapose 2013 SJ with transfer from CCU SJ. You've basically turned into Tally whom you used to constantly disagree with.

I think we've headed down a rabbit trail though. Not really one of the dozens of directions I had foreseen this thing going.

How'd I get pulled into this?

I will say that SJ is on the right track here. The OT version of sacrifices gives us gradation for sinful behavior and its consequence.

What I appreciated about the piece is that none of the LU faculty said "Being gay is okay." They all demonstrated that you can and should love someone even if you believe that they are walking counter to the Lord's design and calling.

[Purple Haize]

I'm pretty sure Jesus is OK with alcohol. He did turn water into wine after all.

We were told that's what they called grape juice in Bible times

[alabama24]

I'm pretty sure Jesus is OK with alcohol. He did turn water into wine after all.

We were told that's what they called grape juice in Bible times

Nope. We are told it was "the good stuff."

(I'm a teetotaler, by the way)

[TH Spangler]

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html