[logic]

Liberty is officially a top 100 athletics department.


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nac ... 0614012107



Currently ranked 93rd in the country with 192 points behind 67 points from golf and another 20 from track and field for a very strong spring showing. Looking down through the list of schools behind us it is quite a bit of fun to see who we're beating on the national stage. Rutgers ranked at 110, Pitt at 125...ouch.

Some interesting facts -

1. We would be the third highest ranked CUSA school behind Tulsa and Central Florida.
2. We would be the highest ranked MAC school
3. We would be the highest ranked Sun Belt school if you count Denver leaving
4. Highest Ranked CAA school by far
5. Ahead of Rutgers, Nova, Pitt, and a few other Big East schools


The final standings will be released after the conclusion of the CWS at the end of June. I would expect us to stay in the top 100.

Feel free to use these facts when speaking with fans of the above mentioned conferences/schools. It is funny how the Sun Belt folks talk down to us on their board but in reality we have a better overall athletics department than any Sun Belt school.

[Purple Haize]

Maybe the Big South isn't so bad after all

[lynchburgwildcats]

How does it differentiate points earned for FCS and FBS?

[logic]

I am not sure, but it does, hence the FCS football programs earning points for their national finishes. Football is but one small part though, for all other sports it takes your best 10 men's and women's national finishes against all other D1 schools, both FCS and FBS.

[jbock13]

Doesn't include the more popular sports. No offense to them but football, basketball, and baseball are the most popular, and neither one of those show up.

Other than that it's a horrible way to calculate points. Has tons of flaws.

One reason is that men's volleyball is included as a category. Almost nobody has a team, thanks to title 9.

[logic]

Doesn't include the more popular sports. No offense to them but football, basketball, and baseball are the most popular, and neither one of those show up.

Other than that it's a horrible way to calculate points. Has tons of flaws.

One reason is that men's volleyball is included as a category. Almost nobody has a team, thanks to title 9.

Wrong.

Only spring sports are listed as that is the season we are in. Baseball not listed as its not over yet. Take some time to educate yourself before posting. Those scores include fall and winter sports which are done.

Example - final fall sports -

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nac ... elease.pdf

Alabama with 100 points for FBS football and North Dakota State for FCS football.

[Purple Haize]

Doesn't include the more popular sports. No offense to them but football, basketball, and baseball are the most popular, and neither one of those show up.

Other than that it's a horrible way to calculate points. Has tons of flaws.

One reason is that men's volleyball is included as a category. Almost nobody has a team, thanks to title 9.

It has no flaws! It is 'logical'

[jbock13]

Doesn't include the more popular sports. No offense to them but football, basketball, and baseball are the most popular, and neither one of those show up.

Other than that it's a horrible way to calculate points. Has tons of flaws.

One reason is that men's volleyball is included as a category. Almost nobody has a team, thanks to title 9.

Wrong.

Only spring sports are listed as that is the season we are in. Baseball not listed as its not over yet. Take some time to educate yourself before posting. Those scores include fall and winter sports which are done.

Example - final fall sports -

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nac ... elease.pdf

Alabama with 100 points for FBS football and North Dakota State for FCS football.

So according to that, Coastal has better fall sports than we do? If that's the case, well heck we're ready for the SEC!

Thank you for withholding the rest of the information needed to understand what you're talking about.

[Purple Haize]

This surprises you?

[logic]

You clearly didn't take the time to read the page. The original link I posted showed final fall, winter, and current spring totals. A very reasonable amount of logic and general intelligence, based on what you should know about the Sasser Cup, and conference all sports trophies in general, would assume that a system like this wouldn't measure only spring sports.

Instead of choosing to celebrate Liberty's accomplishments you instead chose to bash the system, then blamed me for not providing you with enough information to form your own opinion. There is a lot more I want to say about that but will refrain. Carry on your negativity.

[jbock13]

logic and general intelligence

[Purple Haize]

logic and general intelligence

[JK37]

If the only criteria used for measure is national finish, how can a claim be made regarding "best overall athletic department." There's a lot more to collegiate athletics than what is seen on the court/field of competition.

Then again, I wouldn't expect fans to have a clue.

That said, we would be HIGHER I believe, if there were a way to quantify overall athletic department efficiency and success.

[logic]

If the only criteria used for measure is national finish, how can a claim be made regarding "best overall athletic department." There's a lot more to collegiate athletics than what is seen on the court/field of competition.

Then again, I wouldn't expect fans to have a clue.

That said, we would be HIGHER I believe, if there were a way to quantify overall athletic department efficiency and success.

Normally when people refer to "best overall athletic department," they are in fact referring specifically to winning games based on predetermined scoring system over all sports, not just football/basketball. Alabama is a good example, as football finished first but only had one other fall sport score, leaving them with 125 fall points and 41st place overall after the fall standings. One can determine that while football is very good, their other fall sports lag behind when compared to other athletic programs across the board. While the system is not perfect, one needs to only do a bit of research to see it isn't far off. Alabama's women's volleyball program finished the year 11-20 overall and 4-16 against the SEC. Men's and women's cross country did not score at NCAA's, and the men were 5th in the SEC and the women 6th. Women's soccer was the only fall bright spot other than football, as the squad advanced to the NCAA tournament after losing in the SEC semifinals, but lost in the first round, scoring Alabama's other 25 fall points.

I get it, we all get it, you aren't as concerned with the wins and losses as you are the how, why, who, for what purpose, etc. The bottom line is that the W/L column and national finishes allows the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics an objective standard to rank athletic programs and award an all-sports trophy that measures success across an athletic program's ten best men's and women's programs as compared to their peers. It is not a morality contest and not a popularity contest. How well do you finish on the national level? Simple really.

Your claims are certainly noble, and as a believer in the mission of Liberty University I cannot fault you on your beliefs. Winning certainly isn't everything, and the how and why is absolutely important. Only relying on how/why is not a recipe for success at the Division I level however, and at the high Division I level you simply must win. Had Liberty stayed in the NCCAA or the NAIA we could rest on our mission and programs that do not win could skate by on the how/why. Not so at the Division I level and especially at the FBS level.

Interesting to note, after a quick Google search, it appear that even the NCCAA awards a similar All-Sports Award based on.......national finishes. Nothing else, not community service hours, number of church plants, or dollars given to missions or building projects. You don't lose points for bad behavior, DUI's, arrests, academic failure, etc.

http://www.thenccaa.org/prescupcurrent_year.html


"Winning isn't everything, its the only thing"

- "Red" Sanders or Vince Lombardi, take your pick


We (you, I, Liberty) do not share that belief, but that is our challenge here, to balance your personal belief with the one above.

[JK37]

Normally when people refer to "best overall athletic department," they are in fact referring specifically to winning games based on predetermined scoring system over all sports, not just football/basketball.

I couldn't agree more. But I've never been one to bow to the status quo. Additionally, I am a staunch supporter of sports other than the big three. My acquaintances, my vocation, and even posts on this board can so attest.

...you aren't as concerned with the wins and losses as you are the how, why, who, for what purpose, etc.

You obviously don't know me well, so please allow me to educate you. Since I was 14 years old, I have actively worked in intercollegiate athletics. 100% of my time has been at the Division I level. So when I say I understand the importance of winning, I am not being melodramatic, nor do I speak from the perspective of a simpleton fan. Not only do I understand winning, I have assertively pursued it as a coach at the highest level of my sport.

I say this all to say, I greatly value winning, but I value the "how, why, who, for what purpose, etc." even more. I enjoy winning, and I've LIVED the pursuit of it first-hand. But I've learned many times over - and sometimes in very difficult ways - that the "how, why, who, for what purpose, etc." is far more lasting and valuable. It precedes the winning. In fact, winning is a byproduct of it. Therefore, winning does not equal success; it's a part of it, a derivative of it, and CAN sometimes be a testament of it.

So, you'll pardon me if I carefully point out each time you use the terms "success" and "overall achievement", that these things are fine, but they do not define Liberty's measure of success. If it falls to me to be in the minority who points such things out, so be it. I've never minded that. 

Only relying on how/why is not a recipe for success at the Division I level however, and at the high Division I level you simply must win.  Had Liberty stayed in the NCCAA or the NAIA we could rest on our mission and programs that do not win could skate by on the how/why.  Not so at the Division I level and especially at the FBS level.

The need to win in intercollegiate athletics is not exclusive to the NCAA Division I level. Also, I never said that Liberty, or any athletic department for that matter, should solely focus on the "how/why". I did point out that it is more important, and is a precedent to and can be a testament of success. 

You don't lose points for bad behavior, DUI's, arrests, academic failure, etc.

Yes, you do. Just ask any collegiate coach. Academically, the APR has become a very big deal.

My statements are not meant to downplay the collective victories of our student-athletes, support staff, and coaches. They are merely to bring much-needed perspective to a fan base of an athletic department that cannot forgo the mission of the University for the interim and immediate competitive success that is possible, albeit short-lived, when the "how/why" is rendered less relevant.

[logic]

Agree on all of your points except my "losing points" statement - that was specifically in regards to the NCCAA and their all-sports award. They don't subtract points if team "XYZ" from school "ABC" has a basketball player with a DUI.

I'll talk about wins and objectively measuring success on a national scale, you can add in the moral victories and we'll call it a day

[prototype]

How does it differentiate points earned for FCS and FBS?

FBS is one sport - we are at the highest level in EVERY sport, but football...

I hate that everyone acts like there is a big difference... What hurts us is our conference - it's a bunch of small schools. We play against the big schools in all sports, but football.

[Purple Haize]

Agree on all of your points except my "losing points" statement - that was specifically in regards to the NCCAA and their all-sports award. They don't subtract points if team "XYZ" from school "ABC" has a basketball player with a DUI.

I'll talk about wins and objectively measuring success on a national scale, you can add in the moral victories and we'll call it a day

I thought we were talking NCAA? Who cares where we rank in the NCCAA? Although I would think it would be pretty high. I wonder if we still get points for our National Title?

[JK37]

I'll talk about wins and objectively measuring success on a national scale, you can add in the moral victories and we'll call it a day

That's fine. But, when you say "success", and you only use court/field victories as a measurement, I believe you short-change what Liberty has really accomplished.

[Purple Haize]

I'll talk about wins and objectively measuring success on a national scale, you can add in the moral victories and we'll call it a day

That's fine. But, when you say "success", and you only use court/field victories as a measurement, I believe you short-change what Liberty has really accomplished.

You just are not reading into what he is not putting on the board! Just because he didn't put it on the board doesn't mean they don't believe it, even IF what he did put on the board is totally different then what he didn't. Geez, it's that easy!

[logic]

Agree on all of your points except my "losing points" statement - that was specifically in regards to the NCCAA and their all-sports award. They don't subtract points if team "XYZ" from school "ABC" has a basketball player with a DUI.

I'll talk about wins and objectively measuring success on a national scale, you can add in the moral victories and we'll call it a day

I thought we were talking NCAA? Who cares where we rank in the NCCAA? Although I would think it would be pretty high. I wonder if we still get points for our National Title?

Haize - this specific response was between JK and I and he understood it. My point was that EVEN the NCCAA awards an all sports trophy based SOLELY on national finishes, not moral victories or X number of dollars raised for missions. I was not talking about us ranking anywhere in the NCCAA.

I'll talk about wins and objectively measuring success on a national scale, you can add in the moral victories and we'll call it a day

That's fine. But, when you say "success", and you only use court/field victories as a measurement, I believe you short-change what Liberty has really accomplished.

I lean more towards the on field victories than I do moral victories, and I do not believe that is a bad thing. I am not one to judge who is doing right or wrong. I'll leave that to the experts. But I will call to attention our success on a national level. That is something everyone can see and see it objectively.

[Purple Haize]

Oh. I didn't realize you two were having a romantic discussion. You can take that to PM if you don't want anyone reading them. Otherwise it's all fair. Not sure why the NCCAAhas anything to do with anything. While I understand the all sport aspect, it really is a horrible example. But I'm sure you meant to say something that you didn't say and then be shocked that no one could divine your unspoken thoughts.

[NotAJerry]

A clear, objective standard of on-field success was posted and the same 2-3 people who hijack every thread to attack people are at it again. It was obvious what the thread was about and what the site uses as its measure of success. At some point Sly needs to do something about jbock and Haize constantly using this board as their own bully platform.

Maybe it's time to put them in time out for a month or two until they learn to behave like adults.

[jbock13]

Illogic, what success do we have on the national level? We're in a mediocre conference and can't win in a bigger sports (I concede we do fine in Olympic sports). Also, what national success do we have? Golf is the only thing I can think of. We got to the sweet 16 once but not close ever since.

[prototype]

Illogic, what success do we have on the national level? We're in a mediocre conference and can't win in a bigger sports (I concede we do fine in Olympic sports). Also, what national success do we have? Golf is the only thing I can think of. We got to the sweet 16 once but not close ever since.

Track & Field, Cross Country.