[jcmanson]

Hard to keep it at 5:
Jordan
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Russell
Jabbar
Oscar
Lebron
Kobe

That's 9, and Lebron is what 26? 27? He belongs on that list, and give him 10 more years?!

So not even YOU put him as Top 5

That wasn't necessarily in order. Plus, he's got 10 more years or so. Let's see what happens in the next 10 years.

[jcmanson]

As an aside, Dirk did pretty good last year as a 'One man show'

Dirk had an unbelievable run last year, but it was hardly a one man show.

Tyson Chandler
Jason Terry
Jason Kidd

[bradyfan]

MJ had Doug Collins at the beginning of his career, who I would say IS a step up from Mike Brown. I would keep him out of my Top 5 All Time because he simply isnt one of the Top 5 greatest players of all time.
And your logic is faulty. If you are giving him the credit for getting to the Finals all by himself, then he should get the credit for losing the Finals. If you get credit for one you get credit for both.
As for being 27, much like Kobe, he is an 'old' 27 as are all early entrants.
Again, not sure how saying he isn't top 5 all-time is a bad thing.
As an aside, Dirk did pretty good last year as a 'One man show'

My logic is faulty? I'm saying that because he's great in 90+games and can't win against the best team in the league 4 times, doesn't mean he lost the finals by himself. It's like saying a President is fantastic for 6 years but then gets a screwy congress for two and now everything is his fault. If Lebron hadn't played for Cleveland, they aren't in the finals to begin with. Look how bad they were once Lebron left. That should tell you the impact James had. To blame James for losing the finals is stupid since they wouldn't have had the opportunity to win if he weren't for him. Doug Collins didn't even coach him that long, the majority of his time, he was being coached by Jackson. Who coached him to more rings?

[RubberMallet]

dirk as a 1 man show? seriously, either you are trolling or are just being plain dumb.

my 5

oscar
mj
magic
kareem
bird

i really don't see how so far in his career lebron eeks his way in there. top 10. maybe. but there is alot of talent there too.
pretty simple. in my top 10 that my surprise. george gervin. oh yeah.

[lynchburgwildcats]

Dude, layoff the crack and the stats. Forget the stats for a moment and think of player by player match-ups and realize that teams don't give a rat's butt about the regular season. The highest seed hardly ever wins, translation, regular season means nothing. Furthermore, you bring up offensive efficiency but choose to forget everything I've stated. Utah has 0 stars and 0 defense. Facing Al Jefferson and Devin Harris versus Melo and Amare? Come on. SA was handed a series. The Clippers by the way ranked 14th in points per game and in defense. Indiana was 13th in points per game and 9th in defense. Utah's defense was 23rd while the Knicks was 11th. Advantages to NY and Indiana. Also, in points per game differential NY and Indiana beat the Clippers and Utah (Utah was terrible at just .7). Honestly, I think stats mean nothing, but since you brought them up...you're still wrong.

I was arguing over the fact that you say the Spurs don't play any defense, yet you counter that with arguing their opponents don't play any defense? In what world does that make any sense?

But alas you seriously bringing up points per game? That stat is completely useless because it's completely skewed by pace. If two teams are equally efficient, but one has 100 possessions per game and another has 94, which is going to score more? The team with 100 possessions obviously. That doesn't mean they are a better offensive team.

Milwaukee was 5th in the NBA in points per game, does that mean they had a better offense than Miami who ranked 7th in the NBA in scoring? Utah was 4th in the NBA in scoring, does that mean Utah had a better offense than Miami? New Orleans was 7th and Toronto was 9th in the NBA in points allowed, does that mean they were a better defensive team than Indiana or New York?

I'll make it easy on you, the answer to all those questions is no. Now if you'd use offensive and defensive efficiency, you would know that. Nice try, but you fail once again. If you want to bring stats to the table, at least bring ones that can't be skewed simply by playing faster or slower...

[lynchburgwildcats]

My top 10 in alphabetical order:
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell

Karl Malone nearly made the list, but I thought all the guys above were more dominant and they have championships. Unfortunately for Malone he played during the Jordan era. LeBron has a chance to break into the list, I'd say he is already top 20, but it may take a championship for him to break into the top 10 unless he continues to play at such a transcendent level for another 6-8ish years.

[bradyfan]

Dude, layoff the crack and the stats. Forget the stats for a moment and think of player by player match-ups and realize that teams don't give a rat's butt about the regular season. The highest seed hardly ever wins, translation, regular season means nothing. Furthermore, you bring up offensive efficiency but choose to forget everything I've stated. Utah has 0 stars and 0 defense. Facing Al Jefferson and Devin Harris versus Melo and Amare? Come on. SA was handed a series. The Clippers by the way ranked 14th in points per game and in defense. Indiana was 13th in points per game and 9th in defense. Utah's defense was 23rd while the Knicks was 11th. Advantages to NY and Indiana. Also, in points per game differential NY and Indiana beat the Clippers and Utah (Utah was terrible at just .7). Honestly, I think stats mean nothing, but since you brought them up...you're still wrong.

I was arguing over the fact that you say the Spurs don't play any defense, yet you counter that with arguing their opponents don't play any defense? In what world does that make any sense?

But alas you seriously bringing up points per game? That stat is completely useless because it's completely skewed by pace. If two teams are equally efficient, but one has 100 possessions per game and another has 94, which is going to score more? The team with 100 possessions obviously. That doesn't mean they are a better offensive team.

Milwaukee was 5th in the NBA in points per game, does that mean they had a better offense than Miami who ranked 7th in the NBA in scoring? Utah was 4th in the NBA in scoring, does that mean Utah had a better offense than Miami? New Orleans was 7th and Toronto was 9th in the NBA in points allowed, does that mean they were a better defensive team than Indiana or New York?

I'll make it easy on you, the answer to all those questions is no. Now if you'd use offensive and defensive efficiency, you would know that. Nice try, but you fail once again. If you want to bring stats to the table, at least bring ones that can't be skewed simply by playing faster or slower...

Wow, you're actually really retarded. Like, you see logic and run the opposite way. I said, "stats do NOT matter but since you brought them up..." Next, when did I say one stat was more important than the other? Honestly, most championship teams are above in a majority of stats rather than being good in one and bad in another....so, I could really care less about who has a more efficient offense. None of it will matter since Miami has the best combination of defense, offense, rebounding and talent. Can't wait to count the number of post you have once SA loses.

[BJWilliams]

[lynchburgwildcats]

Wow, you're actually really retarded. Like, you see logic and run the opposite way. I said, "stats do NOT matter but since you brought them up..." Next, when did I say one stat was more important than the other? Honestly, most championship teams are above in a majority of stats rather than being good in one and bad in another....so, I could really care less about who has a more efficient offense. None of it will matter since Miami has the best combination of defense, offense, rebounding and talent. Can't wait to count the number of post you have once SA loses.

Says the man who called Granger a great player and plays excellent defense despite making only one all-star game and not managing to register even one single vote for All-Defense...

[RubberMallet]

bj made me laugh

[bradyfan]

Wow, you're actually really retarded. Like, you see logic and run the opposite way. I said, "stats do NOT matter but since you brought them up..." Next, when did I say one stat was more important than the other? Honestly, most championship teams are above in a majority of stats rather than being good in one and bad in another....so, I could really care less about who has a more efficient offense. None of it will matter since Miami has the best combination of defense, offense, rebounding and talent. Can't wait to count the number of post you have once SA loses.

Says the man who called Granger a great player and plays excellent defense despite making only one all-star game and not managing to register even one single vote for All-Defense...

Stay away from stats and crack. The all-star game in the NBA is virtually pointless. Who cares if you make an all-star game or get a vote for all-defense? It means nothing.

[thepostman]

Lebron is one of the best, most talented players to ever play in the NBA, period. He, however is far from the greatest. The great ones don't make excuses for not winning. This is the same reason Dwight Howard will never be a great player. Lebron had a better team, top to bottom, then he does with Miami. Miami has 3 very, very good players and a couple ok players and after that, nothing. Lebron couldn't do it with a better overall team why in the world should I have any other attitude then "I'll believe it when I see it"??? SO far nobody has given a good argument just a bunch of ridiculous stats.

Comparing Lebron to Pippen, though funny, is not accurate either...

OK, end of rant.

[BJWilliams]

bj made me laugh

What's even funnier is that neither of them realize they got burned...

[RubberMallet]

the spurs putting on a clinic.

[lynchburgwildcats]

OKC will take care of business against SA and it's going to be ugly. Winning one game, at your place means virtually nothing. (See Indiana's 3rd game against the Heat. How'd that work out?)

OKC wins in 6, maybe 5 if they take this next game.

Only ugly I've seen so far has been from OKC. And good luck with that five game prediction, you may get the number of games right, sure won't have the opponent if it ends in five.

Kawhi Leonard just dropped 18 and 10 on them. That's a heck of a contribution from a dude that doesn't matter.

This series is over. OKC isn't winning four games in five tries against the Spurs. The number of games it takes for the series to end is the only formality remaining.

[lynchburgwildcats]

bj made me laugh

What's even funnier is that neither of them realize they got burned...

Some people just choose to embrace such childish things and use it as fuel for the future. I know you guys don't like me, that just makes me want to post more. Thought you guys were smarter than that.

[JK37]

To keep one organization competitive for so long...wow. Popovich is in the conversation for greatest NBA coach ever. Jackson & Auerbach had talent unlike anyone else. Pops runs circles around other coach strategically. And his consistency is incredible.

[Purple Haize]

George Gervin...one thing I can do..is finger roll!

So all these people clamoring that LeBron is the greates or even top 5 don't have him as either. Yet I'm the one being ridiculous.
I think the case could be made for Top 25 but even then I'd have several of his contemporaries ahead of him.
And if he is 27 playing another 10 years would put him at...wait for it...37. How many great 37 year old NBA players are there. And don't say Juawn Howard haha. How many players are great after 20 years in the league?

As for Dirk. I think his roster mirrors Cleveland's Finals roster pretty well. Cleveland's front line was bigger but Dallas quicker. Daniel Gibson was having a tremendous rookie year and would be comparable to Berea. Larry Hughes and Jason Terry would be your secondary scorers. Drew Gooden was having a resurgent or at least finally a good year. Same for Donyell Marshall. Yet Dirks team beat a heavily favored Miami team featuring....whats his name....oh yeah LeBron James. And James' Cavs lost and got SWEPT. Of course, he already had checked out before the series even started so maybe that's not fair.

[Purple Haize]

To keep one organization competitive for so long...wow. Popovich is in the conversation for greatest NBA coach ever. Jackson & Auerbach had talent unlike anyone else. Pops runs circles around other coach strategically. And his consistency is incredible.

Don't forget Jerry Sloan.

[RubberMallet]

As for Dirk. I think his roster mirrors Cleveland's Finals roster pretty well. Cleveland's front line was bigger but Dallas quicker. Daniel Gibson was having a tremendous rookie year and would be comparable to Berea. Larry Hughes and Jason Terry would be your secondary scorers. Drew Gooden was having a resurgent or at least finally a good year. Same for Donyell Marshall. Yet Dirks team beat a heavily favored Miami team featuring....whats his name....oh yeah LeBron James. And James' Cavs lost and got SWEPT. Of course, he already had checked out before the series even started so maybe that's not fair.

are you seriously comparing that cleveland team to the talent that dallas had? larry hughes = jason terry!? DONYEL MARSHALL? DANIEL GIBSON = berrea (pssst berea actually....uh....scored) ??? where are kidd, chandler, and marions comparables? lmao. seriously you have stretched awfully hard in this entire thread...

[thepostman]

George Gervin...one thing I can do..is finger roll!

So all these people clamoring that LeBron is the greates or even top 5 don't have him as either. Yet I'm the one being ridiculous.
I think the case could be made for Top 25 but even then I'd have several of his contemporaries ahead of him.
And if he is 27 playing another 10 years would put him at...wait for it...37. How many great 37 year old NBA players are there. And don't say Juawn Howard haha. How many players are great after 20 years in the league?

As for Dirk. I think his roster mirrors Cleveland's Finals roster pretty well. Cleveland's front line was bigger but Dallas quicker. Daniel Gibson was having a tremendous rookie year and would be comparable to Berea. Larry Hughes and Jason Terry would be your secondary scorers. Drew Gooden was having a resurgent or at least finally a good year. Same for Donyell Marshall. Yet Dirks team beat a heavily favored Miami team featuring....whats his name....oh yeah LeBron James. And James' Cavs lost and got SWEPT. Of course, he already had checked out before the series even started so maybe that's not fair.

I think the roster Cleveland had supporting Lebron was better then most give them credit for, but Dallas' supporting cast was still way better. If Lebron was so great though he should have overcome all of that but again he is simply one of the most talented players ever to play in the NBA not one of the greatest

[Purple Haize]

The talent gap between that Dallas team and that Cleveland team was not that great. Tyson didn't do much more then did Big Z. Shawn Marion? Really? I'm not saying Marshall had as good a career but he was having a great year. So was Gibson. What Dallas DID have was a sense of maturity that came from their leaders in Kidd, who is waayyyyy past his prime and Dirk. Don't fall for the stereotypes! And as stated if James is the greatest he should have been able to over come!

[RubberMallet]

The talent gap between that Dallas team and that Cleveland team was not that great. Tyson didn't do much more then did Big Z. Shawn Marion? Really? I'm not saying Marshall had as good a career but he was having a great year. So was Gibson. What Dallas DID have was a sense of maturity that came from their leaders in Kidd, who is waayyyyy past his prime and Dirk. Don't fall for the stereotypes! And as stated if James is the greatest he should have been able to over come!

you have to be trolling. daniel and donyell marshall were awful. i don't know who you are remembering.

[Purple Haize]

Gibson hit some big shots in the playoffs I may be mistaking Marshall for Goode. And probably am. But I do know Larry Hughes was having a very solid year

[RubberMallet]

Gibson hit some big shots in the playoffs I may be mistaking Marshall for Goode. And probably am. But I do know Larry Hughes was having a very solid year

larry hughes can only score, he cant' do anything else and even he wasn't that amazing at that. he was an awful defender. gibson hit 2 shots in the playoffs but other than that, the guy was invisible as a player. there is no way you can compare gibson or marshall or even goode to any of the regular rotation of the mavericks.