[TallyW]

What is Liberty's Mission?

That's what the Chancellor says we're going to showcase.

Lets follow the logic.

"Dear Liberty Graduates,
We want you to be Champions for Christ.... just like our Commencement speaker today... Errr.... Umm.... Like OTHER Christian leaders out there who have honored Jesus as Lord.... but this Mormon right here is going to encourage you to go get that done because he needs the evangelicals to support his campaign even though he's spent most of his life running around telling people that you are apostate and Jesus is not who we say he is. Go LU!"

Yeah, let's get that on as many cameras as possible.

[From the class of 09]

http://www.albertmohler.com/media/audio ... iefing.mp3

Al Mohler obliterates the idea of Mormonism as Christianity and calls it like it is about Joel Osteen claiming Mormons are Christians. If Liberty had leadership with this kind of discernment, there wouldn't be the blatant lying and attempts at silencing those who are discerningly opposing this purely political move.

Couple questions for you after you most recent post...

1) Did anyone ever say that Mormonism=Christianity at Lib?
2) Would it be prudent for an organization to allow someone to publicly libel them using the organizations own social media pages?
3) How committed are you to the Paul organization? Is this a new thing you are experimenting with or are you balls deep?

PS...If you read my earlier post in this thread you'll see that I'm not a big fan of Lib being so obviously political all the time but you my friend (friend being used in the condescending tone that really annoys you) come across as a complete democrat’s mascot (that's how you get around sensors).

PPS...Romney is a big deal I just wish we could have got Obama instead.

I'm pretty sure even BeeJayWilliams can be proud of my use of (...)

[jcmanson]

The fact that if you're a cult leader running for President we'll gladly compromise our religious convictions for the sake of politics? Yeah, lets broadcast that loud and clear.

I think this is the main sense of division among the 2 view points. Please explain how we are compromising our religious convictions? We've had other "non-Christians" speak at Convo, Commencement, etc. Did we compromise our religious convictions by letting them speak? Is Romney a worse "non-Christian"?

[TallyW]

The uniqueness here is that we are actively assisting Romneys campaign not like the McCain visit. The help that Romney needs is almost entirely theological in nature. Remember, McCain was coming off trying to deal with former preacher Mike Huckabee. Compared to that, he needed a hug. Romney needs the help because his entire life has been spent not only denying Jesus but actually working counter to our mission that were supposedly highlighting.

The pain I feel as an alum is that our school must grow to realize that there are actually real alumni out there who have to contend with this Mormon message. The school where we learned to defend our faith is harming our Christian calling by being the tool by which the Mormons can say "Hey, there is no problem here, Liberty embraced Romney." The entire faith is based on co-opting Christianity to get people to drop their spiritual guard....now Liberty is excited to help the LDS church get it done in an election season. That is the major difference.

[jcmanson]

So, it’s because Mormons are “worse non-Christians” than Jews? Or other non-Christians? That's all I can decipher from your reply. If so, then why no outrage over the Beck decision?

[jbock13]

It would seem to me that NAJ worships Ron Paul, not God.

[Purple Haize]

The help that Romney needs is almost entirely theological in nature

It's like you are taking a bunch of crazy pills. This makes absolutely no sense. Unless you are talking on a level of his personal belief system, how do you come up with that asinine statement.
Yes people have to deal with the Mormon Messageas you put it. So what? I have not seen, read or heard anyone stating that the reason Romney is coming here is so that we can bless him and form a hybrid theology with the LDS. Maybe, just maybe, if you were not acting so rashly you would see this as an outstanding opportunity to point out the THEOLOGICAL differences between the LDS and the SBC. This is most certainly going to cause more people to ask "What's the difference?" People who may not have given it much or any thought about it in the past. So the decision then becomes yours. Are you going to trash the University for having a successful moral man who (I hope) will be the next POTUS and is a Mormon? Or are you going to take the opportunity to show the inquisitors the power of the gospel of Christ?

[NotAJerry]

http://www.albertmohler.com/media/audio ... iefing.mp3

Al Mohler obliterates the idea of Mormonism as Christianity and calls it like it is about Joel Osteen claiming Mormons are Christians. If Liberty had leadership with this kind of discernment, there wouldn't be the blatant lying and attempts at silencing those who are discerningly opposing this purely political move.

Couple questions for you after you most recent post...

1) Did anyone ever say that Mormonism=Christianity at Lib?
2) Would it be prudent for an organization to allow someone to publicly libel them using the organizations own social media pages?
3) How committed are you to the Paul organization? Is this a new thing you are experimenting with or are you balls deep?

PS...If you read my earlier post in this thread you'll see that I'm not a big fan of Lib being so obviously political all the time but you my friend (friend being used in the condescending tone that really annoys you) come across as a complete democrat’s mascot (that's how you get around sensors).

PPS...Romney is a big deal I just wish we could have got Obama instead.

I'm pretty sure even BeeJayWilliams can be proud of my use of (...)

If LU had a history of bringing in people of disparate backgrounds, instead of always going to the establishment GOP in an election year, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. It's the willingness to sell themselves directly to the GOP, at all costs, that is at question. Romney being a cult member whose belief system revolves around destroying biblical Christianity is icing on the cake (though a very thick, luxurious icing).

1. In the classroom, they teach the opposite of your question. In the public arena, they're willing to ignore their own teaching if they see even the tiniest sliver of a chance to gain some political influence. Does the university define Judaism or Catholicism as a cult? If not, then the Mormon speaker issue IS different than the others.

2. I did not see a single statement that would qualify as libel. They may have been there, but I did not see them. Should an organization silence all opposition and then blatantly lie about the reasons publicly? Falwell and Moore lied through their teeth about who was commenting and sending in formal complaints. They've continued to remove comments from students, pastors, and alumni since that point. They're not concerned about libel, they're concerned about putting forth an image that is a lie.

3. I'm not affiliated with the Paul organization at all. I'm going to vote for him because I'm committed to true conservatism that is highlighted by ideas such as non-interventionist foreign policy, small federal government, personal liberty, and sound fiscal policy. Ron Paul is the only one in this Presidential cycle who fits those standards. Thankfully there are people at the state and local levels, such as Bob Marshall in VA, who are beginning to do the same. After this election cycle, I'll wait and see who is the best option for President next time and vote for him/her.

Liberty sells itself for political influence. I was hoping that would be one of the things that changed when Jr. took over. It hasn't, and if anything has actually gotten worse/more overt. The complete and utter lack of leadership, especially in how legitimate concerns are being dismissed and lied about, is pathetic.

JFLJR and Johnnie Moore absolutely must publicly apologize for their very public lies about those who are opposed to this move. They're doing far more harm with their dishonesty than anyone who is correctly pointing out the flaws in this decision.

[NotAJerry]

It would seem to me that NAJ worships Ron Paul, not God.

You really are an arrogant bottom feeder. One of us spent half a decade living off less than 3k per year to serve a people group in the US that most Christians don't even acknowledge. One of us has been a youth pastor across multiple denominations for a decade. One of us is an ordained deacon in a denomination where that role is solely about reaching out to the poor in our church and the surrounding neighborhoods.

And one of us "knows" everything about Ron Paul voters because he sits in class with a couple of them.

[flamesfan30]

they didn't lie. they said the people commenting were either unaffiliated or online students. both of those are true statements.

some perspective from liberty's 2nd most controversial invite
http://pastormark.tv/2011/10/18/is-mormonism-a-cult

also, this is hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33gmGPs ... =autoshare

[NotAJerry]

they didn't lie. they said the people commenting were either unaffiliated or online students. both of those are true statements.

They claimed that "many" who were commenting were unaffiliated with the university.

They then slapped the 70k online students in the face by saying that they just don't understand.

It was both dishonest and dismissive. They're pulling down comments on the issue by people like Al Mohler and Voddie Baucham. It's very clear that they don't want to hear a single word of biblical truth on the issue.

[Purple Haize]

So the fact that it was pointed out that Johnnie Moore didNOT lie totally escaped you didn't it?

So Ron Paul's support of legalizing drugs and prostitution are OK, but Romney helping feed the hungry and cloth the needy are bad? People can be very complex. It is possible for a person to have a Moral, Theological/Spiritual and Political make up. Morally, I am right there with Mitt and quite frankly a lot of Mormons. Politically, I agree with a lot, but not all, of Romney's policy and positions. Theologically, not so much. I would wager, as I am apt to do, that if you look at ANY person, you will be able to make that same type of breakdown. Best friend in Chicago, Politically, not even close, Morally very close, Theologically, pretty close. I know, it's sometimes difficult to look at people like that. You know love the sinner, hate the sin thing?
As for Catholics and Judaism, I have heard oodles of pastors and Evangelicals basically say they are going to hell. Many feel the Pope is the ULTIMATE cult leader and most likely where The Beast of Revelation will come from. But would we spurn a request from thePope to speak? What about Bibi Netanyahu? Elie Wiesel? Is our Faith so fragile that we can not welcome others with open arms and hospitality?

[Purple Haize]

One of us spent half a decade living off less than 3k per year to serve a people group in the US that most Christians don't even acknowledge. One of us has been a youth pastor across multiple denominations for a decade. One of us is an ordained deacon in a denomination where that role is solely about reaching out to the poor in our church and the surrounding neighborhoods.
.

How did you get ahold of my resume?

[NotAJerry]

Here's a comment from Jasen (no last name given) in one of the places where this debate is still occurring which attacks the absurd idea that someone "unaffiliated" with LU should be dismissed and their comments removed:

And so what if they were not affiliated with the university? I happen to attend a church that sends lots of students to LU – our senior and music pastors have kids there. LU touts itself as the largest Christian university in the country. It sets itself up as an example of Christian education.

When someone sets themselves up as an example, and then behaves in a way contrary to what they profess to be modeling, everyone who belongs to that group has a right to call them on their bad behavior.

All this event shows me (as an outsider) is that the University leadership is more concerned with their political agenda than with the spiritual well-being of their students. Rather than make me want to send my child there, it makes me want to avoid it. Because politics trumps doctrine and faith.

I wish you students well in protesting and making your displeasure known to your leadership.

[Purple Haize]

The fact that you were able to find this post disproves your point. They are not shutting down or sending cease and desist letters to other forums. They just don't want it on the FACEBOOK page. What is wrong with that?

[NotAJerry]

From the CNN article:

Oyindamola Bankole, a 22-year old online psychology major at Liberty, said she was disappointed that the comments had been deleted from the website.

“I thought it was very cowardly,” Bankole said in an interview with CNN. “There were a lot of good conversations and debates and people were arguing both sides and I was shocked when they took it down.”

Bankole will be graduating this year from Liberty but has opted to walk in 2013. Though the school differs between online and on-campus students, all walk in the same graduation. This year, 14,000 students will walk and 35,000 are expected to attend as guests.

“Even though we're online students, it's still our graduation,” Bankole said. “The Liberty University Online students are going to be flying in, renting rooms in hotels, and going to the same graduation, so why does our opinion not matter as much? There are 70,000 online students compared to the 12,500 residential students, according to Liberty's website. Glad to know we're just numbers and income in their eyes.”

That's a good way to make students feel about the university, isn't it?

Damage control is needed here, not more sticking heads in the sand and pretending there's no problem.

[NotAJerry]

The fact that you were able to find this post disproves your point. They are not shutting down or sending cease and desist letters to other forums. They just don't want it on the FACEBOOK page. What is wrong with that?

Really? What's wrong with removing discussion of the truth on the Facebook page of a university that is rightly being called out for selling itself to a political party even if it means giving a platform to a cult member? There were genuine questions being asked and Liberty lied about who asked them, removed them so no one can check to see if they were telling the truth, and then gave completely dismissive "reasons" trying to justify doing something as despicable as whoring themselves out to the GOP once again.

Liberty has once again shown that their primary goal is to "Train Champions For The Establishment GOP Even If It Means Endorsing A Cult Member."

[Purple Haize]

For starters they didn't lie about who was posting what. You have been shown proof of that.
Secondly, it's THEIR Facebook page, they can do what they want. They are not shutting down all avenues of discussion as this another threads show. Why not start your own anti-Liberty Facebook page? Set up a #luandldsformunholyalliance twitter account? See there're several avenues to continue a discussion of your version of the truth

[TallyW]

The help that Romney needs is almost entirely theological in nature

It's like you are taking a bunch of crazy pills. This makes absolutely no sense. Unless you are talking on a level of his personal belief system, how do you come up with that asinine statement.

"Crazy Pills" ... cute.

I'm sorry that you're not able to process the fact that this invitation has greater implications than listening to a man on campus for 30 minutes. Those who are looking at it from strictly a campus perspective are short sighted. Romney doesn't care about your campus one way or the other. He cares about building a bridge to a national population that he needs.

That population is not turned off to him because of his:
- Inability to relate to voters.
- Flip flopping on every issue he's ever held.
- Lack of national defense credentials.
- Failure to stand before his people and run on his record for a second gubernatorial term.

No.... the reason the evangelical community is running from Mitt Romney is that Mitt Romney has spent his life believing in and advocating for a cult over the Lord Jesus. People who hold Jesus Christ as the only God have a difficult time voting for a man who believes he will one day be a god and have god babies.

Therefore, the help that Romney needs (and is getting) from LU is help to overcome perception of his theological positions, not his positions on defense or monitory policy. It is for that reason... our willingness to help Romney change the minds of evangelicals who have theological problems with him... that I believe we're wrong for hosting this forum.

Evangelicals look to Christian institutions like Liberty for their theological cues. Liberty should steward their influence better than what we are presently displaying.

[Purple Haize]

You are partially right in that he needs to build a bridge. Outside of that your analysis is off base.

"No.... the reason the evangelical community is running from Mitt Romney is that Mitt Romney has spent his life believing in and advocating for a cult over the Lord Jesus. People who hold Jesus Christ as the only God have a difficult time voting for a man who believes he will one day be a god and have god babies. "

I have no difficulty in voting for him. I guess that would make me, in your world view, and any other Evangelical who votes for him as Polytheists. Really? Where we differ is that I don't see him espousing Mormon ideals in governing the country. The fact that he is a Mormon should be irrelevant. Again,because he is not advocating LDS as State religion,nor does he believe in the dissolution of the US into some sort of Mormon Caliphate.
I can seperate his policy views from his religous views, something you apparently cannot. You make him, and other LDSers sound like great big evil conspirators and boogey men. They are not. They are human beings seeking faith. Sure you can say they are misguided, but that does not make them evil. Sure Mormons will be happy if he wins the Presidency. So what? Catholics were thrilled when JFK won and Christians were happy when Carter won.
If you can show me where Liberty is endorsing his RELIGOUS views please show me. The only thing I can find is the statement claiming, correctly that Liberty has a long history of bringing speakers in with different world views. Good for them.

[ALUmnus]

Tally, I get what you're saying and agree with some of it, but I think you're overestimating the influence of LU's commencement address. If it weren't for the controversy, would anyone even know outside of LU circles? I honestly don't think so. And even with the focus it has now received, I don't think it will change one vote or draw anyone into an LDS church.

And on LU's side, dispite NoJ's hysteria, this is not about politics or the war-mongering slice of the GOP, it's all about publicity and potential prestige. Wrong-sighted or not, that's it.

[TallyW]

Purple... you're missing the mark here.

I've never suggested that Romney himself will convert from the White House. What an enormous straw man you've created.

What I've said is that we are helping the LDS church by helping Romney. There will have never been a greater moment in LDS history than their attaining the presidency for 4 years and the entire nation becoming codified with the lunacy that is Mormonism. The LDS church has been all-out trying to make it seem as normal to be a Mormon as it is to be a Methodist or Presbyterian.

As for what to call people who vote for Romney if they claim to be Christian... I'm not into calling names. I would say that I find it very hard to believe that the Holy Spirit of God would lead me into a voting booth to vote FOR someone who denies nearly everything about Him.

That prayer goes something like:

Christian Voter: "Dear Jesus, is it cool with you that I vote for that guy spending all of that money to tell people you don't exist?"

Jesus: "What?"

'Christian' voter: "Yeah, I mean he says he's pro life now... ignore the 90's... he didn't mean it. He also says he's for smaller government and individual freedom... ignore the Romneycare mandates... He says that he can relate to the average American like me... forget the fact that he's building a house with a car-elevator...."

Jesus: (cuts off the voter) "Did you ask if I'm supportive of you voting for a cult leader who denies me as Savior?"

'Christian' voter: "Umm, yeah. Is that a problem?
------------

Also, to compare Mormonism to Catholicism is to ignore 90% of your bible.

[thepostman]

every year people are angry the difference is this year the anger is a national issue since Mitt is such a national figure now. I don't agree with Mitt being the graduation speaker to be honest, but I don't think this hurt's our mission or is different from things we have done in the past and not even the distant past.

I just don't understand the anger people have, but then again ,I never understand why people get so upset over who speaks at graduation. Then again I didn't even attend my graduation but instead went to DC for the weekend with my wife and had a whole lot more fun then I ever could of had at graduation.

[logic]

This is getting largely ridiculous.


Tally / NotaJerry -

What if Liberty is political? Where you have been the past 40 years? Isn't that kind of the point? And what is wrong with it? Are Republican beliefs not more in line with Christianity than those of Democrats? This country is in turmoil, both politically and spiritually. Don't you think we need more Bible believing political conservatives? I sure do! The more people we can lead to Christ - AND political conservatism is a good thing don't you think?


Also...A vote for Ron Paul is a vote for Obama. I made that mistake in 2008 and will not repeat it again. I am a Ron Paul guy...donate to the Campaign for Liberty...but I will not vote for him, not until we have a legitimate Libertarian party in this country and we can win elections from the GROUND up. That DOES NOT start with voting for the president. Libertarians need to win local and statewide elections first before we're ready to elect federal reps and senators...only then will a true Libertarian be electable in the White House.

Until then, take the lesser of two evils!!!

[TallyW]

Tally, I get what you're saying and agree with some of it, but I think you're overestimating the influence of LU's commencement address. If it weren't for the controversy, would anyone even know outside of LU circles? I honestly don't think so. And even with the focus it has now received, I don't think it will change one vote or draw anyone into an LDS church.

And on LU's side, dispite NoJ's hysteria, this is not about politics or the war-mongering slice of the GOP, it's all about publicity and potential prestige. Wrong-sighted or not, that's it.

ALUmnus... do you honestly believe that the Romney campaign would want to come to Liberty if it didn't help their vote totals and changing the minds of evangelical Christians?

He's a Mormon. We are an evangelical Christian institution. End of story. He is coming to get evangelical votes that are tough for him to get explicitly because of his mormon faith. Liberty is playing the role of telling evangelicals that it's okay to set aside your religious convictions for the sake of this election. That is a horrible place to be.

Evangelicals don't have to be okay with selecting a Mormon. LU should not try to play the middle-man in this exchange.

Truthfully I believe that the implications weren't thought through and Jerry Jr honestly didn't think it'd be a big deal thanks to having Beck. I think the trustees underestimated the signal they'd be sending to the rest of the world and how the LU family would react. It's too late to withdraw the invitation without torpedoing the Romney campaign but this isn't for LU... this is for a mormon who wants evangelicals to like him. For that to happen we have the troublesome issue of Jesus' question "Who do you say that I am?"

Mark DeMoss is on Romney's campaign specifically for this type of effort... to get evangelicals to warm up to Mitt Romney. DeMoss also happens to have a little clout at our school. To suggest that Romney is here for any reason other than to ease the sensibilities of evangelicals is to not understand politics. This entire speech is to help the mormon become accepted by the evangelicals. It's an attempt at an arranged marriage.