[thesportscritic]

Yeah, because I get confused for the Bob Jones type a lot on this board.

No one said anything about being less forgiving. No one said anything about denying second chances.
I'm fairly certain no one said that he should be kicked out of school. I understand full well the difference between agreeing with a decision and over turning the decision. I also understand why a coach would lobby hard for a player and have a bias, especially with an intrical part of the team. I am not suprised a coach would shade or with hold something that might make his player look bad. I would hope they wouldn't but see why they would.
Obviously due dilligence was not done on this at all levels. If it had been, the outstanding bench warrants etc would have been taken care of prior to the arrest thus making them a non issue. That's a second chance. Person had a problem, person wants a second chance, person fixes problem.
Is it Bob Jones like to think that an Evangelical Christian institution would suspend a player from the team, keep them in school and provide all of the support counseling etc they need want or desire until the criminal charges had been resolved? A small school in Blacksburg just did something similar. Are they too much like Bob Jones? Did they do the wrong thing?
BYU stuck to their guns and probably cost them a trip to the Final Four. And while most people thought the prohibition of Pre marital sex was stupid, they respected BYU for following their own code. Player remained in school but was suspended from the squad. It seems to me that the situation we had was a little more severe. Cocaine, marijuana, failure to appear warrants and driving with a suspended liscense seem a little more egregious then Pre marital sex.
Call me legalistic if you like but it is disappointing that apparently no one is taking responsibility because apparently no one thinks this was a bad decision.

+1

[JLFJR]

And one more thing, Purple, my comment about those who believe a Christian college should be less forgiving than non-Christian schools was referring to comments I read here that BYU and VT looked better for having a zero tolerance policy and not allowing troubled players to stay on the team. Here is one of those comments from you: BYU looks better for what they did. VT looks less bad for shipping their people home or off the team.

I was not criticizing that view, only pointing out that there are two lines of thought regarding how Christian colleges should treat young people who get in trouble but who are truly repentant. One line of thought says Christian colleges should be less forgiving and dole out greater punishment than non-Christian colleges - kick them out to protect the good students (or good football players on the team in this case) from bad influences. The other line of thought is that Christian schools should be more forgiving and more prone to grant the second chance like Jesus did with the woman at the well, providing counseling, mentorship, restoration, etc. Liberty tries to strike a healthy balance here with restorative justice programs for first offenders who are sorry for their mistakes but tough punishment and dismissal for those who become a negative influence on other students.

[thepostman]

But if he wasn't who he was would the same course of action been taken?? That is what I wonder. You know more about the situation then any of us, but there are those of us who were students not so long ago that so people get kicked out of school for less then this. I do not believe Asa should of been kicked out of school. Liberty is so well equipped to handle these kind of issues, but I do believe he should of sat out the season. I don't see how that could be considered at all un-Christlike

[JLFJR]

But if he wasn't who he was would the same course of action been taken?? That is what I wonder. You know more about the situation then any of us, but there are those of us who were students not so long ago that so people get kicked out of school for less then this. I do not believe Asa should of been kicked out of school. Liberty is so well equipped to handle these kind of issues, but I do believe he should of sat out the season. I don't see how that could be considered at all un-Christlike

postman, I can't speak for what happened before I was in charge but, in recent years, we have gone the extra mile to make sure all students are treated the same when it comes to discipline matters. Mark Hine and Keith Anderson met with me and showed me how they had given every other first offender for possession or use of alcohol or illegal drugs the same treatment over the last two years. And like I said earlier, I don't fault you or anyone else for believing that Asa should not have been allowed to re-join the team when he did. That was a tough judgment call and more people will probably agree with you on that issue at the end of the day than they will the coach. I do believe that the coach did what he thought was right. He gave a lot of thought and prayer to the decision and researched how other NCAA coaches had handled similar situations. He considered other facts that have still not been made public. I could find no compelling reason to reverse his decision and it is just not my management style to overrule a coach on something like this unless his or her decision is completely arbitrary and outrageous. Thank you for your thoughts!

[Purple Haize]

Purple, LU followed its code, policies and procedures to the letter. You are still making arguments for why the coach should not have allowed him back on the team and I have already said that, when all the facts come out, there will still be room for reasonable people to disagree on that decision. I don't know that I would have made the same decision but the coach's decision will make a lot more sense to you when you have all the facts. I feel certain about that and I hope you will understand at that point why I did not intervene.

My argument is that SOMEONE should have stepped in and not allowed him back on the team.
As for code policies and procedures, this was debated earlier, and there is confusion as to which Liberty Way was in effect. At the time of the incident it clearly spelled out the disciplinary action required. The revised Liberty Way has more 'wiggle room'. Never the less, based on the previous legal issues, I'm not sure how this can be labeled a first offense. If he was let in as a second chance originally, then this happens how can That be called a first offense? A very creative definition of Self Report was used to keep in line with the New procedures. He only came clean after he was found out. So was he remorseful for what he did or that he got caught. From the outside, and judging by the record, I'm going with option B
I also think it strains credulity to say that after much research we handled the situation the same way
other University's have handled it. Any half way casual fan, and a perusal of the University of Miami, could point to similar situations that were followed by season long suspensions. I'm skeptical of exactly how much due dilligence was actually done by everyone involved.
Maybe I'm to Bob Jonesish but whether it is Football or Quiz Bowl, I have high expectations of those who represent LU in extra curricular activities. I guess I find it difficult to believe that at some point in the process no one stepped up and said that something just doesn't seem right. That no one realized what a tremendous black eye this was going to give the university. I'm sorry but this situation was handled poorly. Handling this situation in a manner that would benefit everyone and reaffirm to the World at large what we stand for is a no brainer. I'm just suprised no one stepped up to the plate.

[adam42381]

Wow is all I can say regarding the chancellor's responses.

[BJWilliams]

Adam...Purple...we know...you disagree and youre ashamed of the university and what not and what have you...thats fine...but at least can you try to be somewhat understanding of what the man is trying to say about how they handled the situation and are trying to further handle it going forward?

[Purple Haize]

Adam...Purple...we know...you disagree and youre ashamed of the university and what not and what have you...thats fine...but at least can you try to be somewhat understanding of what the man is trying to say about how they handled the situation and are trying to further handle it going forward?

BJ. Oh I think understand perfectly.

[JLFJR]

Purple, LU followed its code, policies and procedures to the letter. You are still making arguments for why the coach should not have allowed him back on the team and I have already said that, when all the facts come out, there will still be room for reasonable people to disagree on that decision. I don't know that I would have made the same decision but the coach's decision will make a lot more sense to you when you have all the facts. I feel certain about that and I hope you will understand at that point why I did not intervene.

My argument is that SOMEONE should have stepped in and not allowed him back on the team.

After I reviewed all the facts, I decided otherwise. You and I disagree on this and that is not going to change.

As for code policies and procedures, this was debated earlier, and there is confusion as to which Liberty Way was in effect. At the time of the incident it clearly spelled out the disciplinary action required. The revised Liberty Way has more 'wiggle room'.

Incorrect. The same Liberty Way was in effect for many months before this incident but, even under the old Liberty Way, the outcome would have been the same. The same Restorative Justice Program was already in effect for first offenders.

Never the less, based on the previous legal issues, I'm not sure how this can be labeled a first offense. If he was let in as a second chance originally, then this happens how can That be called a first offense?

Mark Hine made it very clear to me that Asa met the definition of a first offender at Liberty. He had no prior disciplinary record at LU.

A very creative definition of Self Report was used to keep in line with the New procedures. He only came clean after he was found out. So was he remorseful for what he did or that he got caught.

The RJ Program would have been used here whether he self reported or not so this is not even an issue.

From the outside, and judging by the record, I'm going with option B
I also think it strains credulity to say that after much research we handled the situation the same way
other University's have handled it. Any half way casual fan, and a perusal of the University of Miami, could point to similar situations that were followed by season long suspensions. I'm skeptical of exactly how much due dilligence was actually done by everyone involved.

You are mixing apples and oranges. LU did not check to see how other universities discipline students caught with illegal drugs. We have policies and procedures and we followed them. Only the coach checked with other universities to see how other coaches handled similar situations and he used an outside firm to do the research. It was good information from a large number of schools.

Maybe I'm to Bob Jonesish but whether it is Football or Quiz Bowl, I have high expectations of those who represent LU in extra curricular activities. I guess I find it difficult to believe that at some point in the process no one stepped up and said that something just doesn't seem right. That no one realized what a tremendous black eye this was going to give the university. I'm sorry but this situation was handled poorly. Handling this situation in a manner that would benefit everyone and reaffirm to the World at large what we stand for is a no brainer. I'm just suprised no one stepped up to the plate.

[/quote]

Again, all the facts are still not known so I hope you keep an open mind but, if you take the view that Coach Rocco should have been less forgiving than a secular college coach, then I suppose you might think badly of LU because the coach let the player back on the team when he did. I received far more responses from non-LU people thanking us for the fact that Coach Rocco displayed the same type of Christian forgiveness that Jesus taught. I know I sound like a broken record but I can see where reasonable people can disagree on that issue. Decisions like this can't be made by popular opinion. I am not sure I would have let Asa back on the team when Coach Rocco did but I do believe that Coach Rocco did what he thought was right. I reviewed the facts and I think it would have been wrong for me to overrule his decision. I think Liberty's Office of Student Conduct handled this matter just as it should have been handled and I believe, after the coach made his decision about the team membership, we again did the right thing in response. You and I may never agree on that but it is time to move on. It is a new day. Liberty has a new coach and it is time to agree to disagree -- except that I will let everyone know all the facts when I can.

[WinterIsComing]

I think what a lot of people are feeling, is there is something bigger here than just football, or rules, or grace and mercy, or even equal treatment of staff and students... I haven't quite figured it out.

As a side note, I spent two years under Doc and two under Jerry Jr. as a student. And continue to serve to this day.

For me, I believe in this University. That it means something. That it's special. That it stands for and represents something bigger than myself. That at its core, is something so genuine, so true, that I'd be a fool not to believe in it too. That's why I came here and why I may never leave. I am a Christian. I am a brother. I am a Flame.

But to see money and football and other things come between that is sad. I still believe in this University and all it stands for and realize it will never be perfect (because nothing can be). But it leaves me feeling cheated and betrayed sometimes. I believe in it. But those who hold more money and power used that trust to better themselves and left me (and us) holding the bag. I'm NOT saying that is the Chancellor himself. I would fight anyone who said otherwise. But others...

[JLFJR]

I think what a lot of people are feeling, is there is something bigger here than just football, or rules, or grace and mercy, or even equal treatment of staff and students... I haven't quite figured it out.

As a side note, I spent two years under Doc and two under Jerry Jr. as a student. And continue to serve to this day.

For me, I believe in this University. That it means something. That it's special. That it stands for and represents something bigger than myself. That at its core, is something so genuine, so true, that I'd be a fool not to believe in it too. That's why I came here and why I may never leave. I am a Christian. I am a brother. I am a Flame.

But to see money and football and other things come between that is sad. I still believe in this University and all it stands for and realize it will never be perfect (because nothing can be). But it leaves me feeling cheated and betrayed sometimes. I believe in it. But those who hold more money and power used that trust to better themselves and left me (and us) holding the bag. I'm NOT saying that is the Chancellor himself. I would fight anyone who said otherwise. But others...

Sorry, WIC, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. You will have to try again and I will be glad to respond.

[bradyfan]

Obviously, this is a sad situation for us Liberty fans. Our school is supposed to be the standard for Christian collegiate athletics and we let something like this slide. I don't think you can only blame Rocco for this decision but he definitely had more knowledge of the situation than anyone else with say. With that said, we're still all human and we all struggle with different things. Our administration isn't going anywhere and I think we just have to forgive and forget. We're under a new coaching staff now, so this is a fresh beginning. I firmly believe that Gill is a man of principle and will not let similar future issues slide.

Better check with KU fans....

Or Buffalo and Nebraska fans...seriously go away

What are you talking about? Every Buffalo fan I know loves Gill, same with Nebraska.

On another note, why do so many Christians forget that our faith is based on forgiveness? Should that not be part of the standard we set?

[JLFJR]

But to see money and football and other things come between that is sad. I still believe in this University and all it stands for and realize it will never be perfect (because nothing can be). But it leaves me feeling cheated and betrayed sometimes. I believe in it. But those who hold more money and power used that trust to better themselves and left me (and us) holding the bag. ..

WIC, I am going to bed and may not get a chance to look at this thread for a week or more so I will respond to one of your comments. Liberty is not in football for money. Trust me, it is nothing but a huge expense and I will be shocked if it makes any money for Liberty in my lifetime. Very few schools have programs that generate money for the school. Football at Liberty has always been about getting the word out to the world about what Liberty has to offer in training champions for Christ, nothing more, nothing less. It is a means to an end. I think most people understand that. With that said, I am retiring for the night.

[JLFJR]

On another note, why do so many Christians forget that our faith is based on forgiveness? Should that not be part of the standard we set?[/quote][/quote]

+1

[WinterIsComing]

I can't truthfully say that statement had everything to do with football. But what I will say is it was from the heart. And without analyzing my own quote to death I'll simply say this; Asa received something most of us never did. The benefit of a doubt.

[adam42381]

I'll simply say this; Asa received something most of us never did. The benefit of a doubt.

This. I knew a lot of people who were expelled for much less serious violations. First time violators who were expelled for drinking at parties or smoking weed. The only exceptions were athletes. I knew a baseball player who was busted multiple times (3 or more) and the worst punishment he received was having to move back on campus into the freshman dorms. I realize that things change, but this was less than ten years ago.

[jmdickens]

I'll simply say this; Asa received something most of us never did. The benefit of a doubt.

This. I knew a lot of people who were expelled for much less serious violations. First time violators who were expelled for drinking at parties or smoking weed. The only exceptions were athletes. I knew a baseball player who was busted multiple times (3 or more) and the worst punishment he received was having to move back on campus into the freshman dorms. I realize that things change, but this was less than ten years ago.

Yeah, I had to visit the dean of men about 5 times in one semester and it was all over heresay....They called me in because my roommate had problems gf. She would come into our dorm and we all know it is a big no no.

Well, the drug dog hit our doorknob once.....since I knew my roommates and I didnt smoke pot, we were safe. I laughed a lot in the meeting and told them they were not babysitters. The whole meeting ended up being why I was in trouble for not turning in the roommate who had a gf coming into our dorm.....I laughed again and was fined. amazing that I can get in trouble and prevented from moving off campus because of that and athletes can do anything they want....

[From the class of 09]

Better check with KU fans....

Or Buffalo and Nebraska fans...seriously go away

What are you talking about? Every Buffalo fan I know loves Gill, same with Nebraska.

That was the point sweety

[adam42381]

Adam...Purple...we know...you disagree and youre ashamed of the university and what not and what have you...thats fine...but at least can you try to be somewhat understanding of what the man is trying to say about how they handled the situation and are trying to further handle it going forward?

I understand what's being done. There's only so much he can say. There's no way he's going to come out and say they screwed up. The kid shouldn't have been playing, plain and simple. Forgiveness is letting him stay in school. Allowing him to play sets a strange precedent.

[Sly Fox]

Guys, I believe this discussion has essentially run its course. There obviously remains a difference of opinion for some but I doubt you can count on one hand the number of chancellors of Division I schools who would come and respond directly to concerns like these. For that alone, JLFJR deserves some respect. Until this matter is resolved legally, I don't think it is productive to continue repeating the same points.

Thanks to JLFJR for being so candid in his thoughts when frankly he didn't have to do so.

[BJWilliams]

Remember Adam...hindsight is always perfect (20/20 as the saying actually says) so Im sure that looking back on it Im sure he would have handled the situation differently, but the way it was addressed is the way it was addressed. Would you have handled it differently? Maybe...but you werent in the position to have to make a decision like that so we (and Im including myself in this) can never say with absolute certainty that we would not have made the same decision that the chancellor did.

[TH Spangler]

In life stuff happens .... changes are made .... then it's time to move on!

[Liberty22]

quote="adam42381"]

I'll simply say this; Asa received something most of us never did. The benefit of a doubt.

This. I knew a lot of people who were expelled for much less serious violations. First time violators who were expelled for drinking at parties or smoking weed. The only exceptions were athletes. I knew a baseball player who was busted multiple times (3 or more) and the worst punishment he received was having to move back on campus into the freshman dorms. I realize that things change, but this was less than ten years ago.[/quote]

I'll simply say this; Asa received something most of us never did. The benefit of a doubt.

This. I knew a lot of people who were expelled for much less serious violations. First time violators who were expelled for drinking at parties or smoking weed. The only exceptions were athletes. I knew a baseball player who was busted multiple times (3 or more) and the worst punishment he received was having to move back on campus into the freshman dorms. I realize that things change, but this was less than ten years ago.

Yeah, I had to visit the dean of men about 5 times in one semester and it was all over heresay....They called me in because my roommate had problems gf. She would come into our dorm and we all know it is a big no no.

Well, the drug dog hit our doorknob once.....since I knew my roommates and I didnt smoke pot, we were safe. I laughed a lot in the meeting and told them they were not babysitters. The whole meeting ended up being why I was in trouble for not turning in the roommate who had a gf coming into our dorm.....I laughed again and was fined. amazing that I can get in trouble and prevented from moving off campus because of that and athletes can do anything they want....

As Jerry said

postman, I can't speak for what happened before I was in charge but, in recent years, we have gone the extra mile to make sure all students are treated the same when it comes to discipline matters.

Things may have happened prior to him being in charge in regards to "different standards" He is speaking of how his administration is running things, he is striving for equality amongst students and student-athletes, so bringing up examples of how things happen 7-10+ years ago is comparing apples and oranges. Come on people, read the whole thread before you post...

[Purple Haize]

Adam...Purple...we know...you disagree and youre ashamed of the university and what not and what have you...thats fine...but at least can you try to be somewhat understanding of what the man is trying to say about how they handled the situation and are trying to further handle it going forward?

I understand what's being done. There's only so much he can say. There's no way he's going to come out and say they screwed up. The kid shouldn't have been playing, plain and simple. Forgiveness is letting him stay in school. Allowing him to play sets a strange precedent.

Which sorta upends the We need to be more forgiving argument. Had SOMEONE said My bad, I screwed that up I think we would all be more the willing to forgive and move on.
SLY I do agree that it is good JLFJR comes on here. But I'm sick tired and skeptical of the Wait till the legal process runs its course and you will all change your mind. It's poop.

Not sure anyone is forgetting about Chritianity being about forgiveness. I mean there comes a point where you have to be held accountable. It's a small caveat in Christianity, but it's why not everyone gets in to heaven at the end.

[BJWilliams]

Well what are you expecting him to do...give us regular updates on the inner workings of the case? would that have made you feel better along with the appropriate mea culpa?