[logic]

Very true HMO, I suppose I should go easy on the old guy.

JLFJR -

THANK YOU very much for that article. Liberty truly is amazing!

[Purple Haize]

Oh come on logic, Haize is dense...this isnt a news flash

He's obviously missed the last capital campaign renderings and the 1,000 times it was mentioned on here

Yeah. Because these look so much like those. Or the ones before those. Or the prior ones to those. And of course the sketches for the capital campaign that would remove the tempory housing units on the circle....

[logic]

Haize





Expanding the Vines would be easy. It is afterall, a huge bowl.

1. Take the roof off (comes apart easily)
2. Add another deck of seats around the entire bowl with suites on the "ground level" - what would be the first row of the 2nd deck
3. Put on a new, bigger roof

Would have to find a place to play for a year but this would be easy. Think Michigan Stadium - Just a big bowl - keep adding up and out and make the circle bigger. With the road that splits DeMoss and Vines being demolished there is plenty of room to expand out. Let's hope we build the practice courts with Vines expansion in mind!!

That was November 30th Haize.

[Purple Haize]

Yes. And? Didnt you buttress your arguments with the artist sketches? Did you mention anything about an overhang on the existing lower bowl?
I also didn't see anything about a bigger roof or luxury suites. So being charitable you got one thing sorta correct

[logic]

Don't trip over yourself back peddling. You would save yourself a lot of grief if you said what you actually meant. Your last post is a case in point. It is in material whether I know what the stated goal of LUs enrollment is or not. What is important is that we know what you are talking about. The middle part of your post did a nice job spelling out what you meant. On campus as opposed to off campus, you broke down percentages etc.
Now as for your Vines center fix, you have a couple of issues. The first being proportionality of an added 'deck' and its footprint. The second being the added weight. Third it still doesn't solve several other problems. What would the sight lines be? Are you really adding to the value of the venue or just more seats?

I used the artists schetches as proof a second deck had already been discussed and said why don't we just put a complete ring of seats around? Seemed logical at the time. And haize my friend, a second deck would obviously overhang the lower bowl - tell me what second deck in any stadium doesn't?
Luxury suites are mute now that we won't be playing BBall there. But I would be willing to bet JLFJR would seriously consider them in the Vines if not for the new civic center. Based on your post above you clearly couldnt see the vision of a second deck in the Vines. So negative my friend! Don't be afraid to dream haize!

[jbock13]

Hold on guys, I need to grab some popcorn to watch this cyber fight.

Okay, continue.

[logic]

It is but a difference in vision I believe. I spend 15-30 minutes every day dreaming of what this campus, this university, could be in 5, 10, 15 years. What it will look like and how it will function. I see things like the Vines renovated with a deck and suites. I see a football stadium with 70,000 seats. I see visitors wowed by the library and other academic buildings. I see 15,000 students worshipping together as one, in one renovated Vines. I see Green Hall with brick work the whole way to the top to match DeMoss and no more industrial siding. I see green grass where the Schilling once stood. I see campus police patrolling a beautiful on campus lake late at night to make sure no adventurous students may go for a dip. I see national prominance in academics and athletics. I see a 25,000 size student body still grounded in a fervent faith that would cause even the staunchest critics question what is so special that is happening here. I see future students choosing Liberty over UVA and Tech for the above mentioned reasons and beyond. I see 12 year old youth groupers in Texas wearing Flames gear and not the burnt orange and white (sorry Sly). I see a future President or two graduating from this University. I see a free standing business school with an excellent entrepreneurship program encouraging and challenging future students to dream bigger, much bigger, than even you and I can imagine today. I see a future Forbes list with Liberty graduates sprinkled in next to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, et al.

It is not that Haize lacks vision, no, it is a matter of not letting small details like sight lines get in the way of grand desires. In that respect we are very different, though that is not necessarily a bad thing. I would just rather let those trained in the details figure out a way to make it happen. The story of Henry Ford and the V-8 engine is a classic example. Ford had a vision for an 8-cylinder engine, and instructed to his engineers to make it happen. For quite some time they failed, and came back to Ford to say it cannot be done. Ford replied "It can be done and I'll have it." As they say the rest is history. Ford got his V-8, and although the first run wasn't perfect the design revolutionized the auto industry and cemented Ford as one of the great visionaries of his time. For other examples see the moon landing, skyscrapers, flight, and so on and so forth.

When God puts a desire or vision in a man's heart and it burns with a passion the likes of which the world has not yet seen, the details are sure to follow. We are all a product of one such vision are we not?

[Purple Haize]

You have me there logic. I don't spend time daily conjuring up visions of The Ghost of Liberty's Future. My bad.
There are several arenas that do not have over hangs. Again, I can not get in that brain of yours and extract your assumptions. I already knew a second deck had been discussed. In fact you could say I have intimate knowledge of several past plans re: The Vines Center. For the umpteenth time, the rendering you referenced, and expanded on is different then what is currently shown. Your use of that rendering and your expansion there of is where the difference lies.
Your V8 analogy is close but not relevant. I believe along with others suggestions of how to improve the Vines were put forth.
You are right, we differ in our approaches. There are too many incidences in Liberty's past where the attitude was either 'Lets just build it and we can make a better one later' or 'Hey this looks like a good spot to put.....something" or 'Well Doc said he wanted it HERE. So here is where we will put it.". I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is not your experience. I'm a big fan of building it right the first time. And when you do build an athletic facility, little things like site lines, seat space concessions DO matter. And it is something I know a tad bit about. I'm someone who can do vision and I'm someone who can do practical. I've worked for both types of people. I like JJ's, if I may be so bold to call him that, ideas and vision on facilities for the most part. (we can discuss civic center later). What I don't want to see happen is for LU to fall into habits of old. DeMoss anyone

[TH Spangler]

Civic Center that seats 10,000 should accommodate the needs of our basketball program well into the future and, while students might have a short walk through the tunnel and/or a short shuttle bus ride to the new Civic Center, unlike Vines, the new center would have easy access from Wards Road across the new bridge that Liberty built at the airport a few years ago and it would have on-site parking for local residents and commuters.

If there's any chance of Big time NCAA hockey in the future (no disrespect meant to club hockey) I hope the city/school considers an ice option for the Civic Center. Can you imagine 10,000 at a LU hockey game? City would also be able to host ice shows and possibly attract minor league hockey.

And Purple you can catch "Lamb of God" at the new Lynchburg CC when they're in town!

[logic]

You are correct there haize, we haven't always built things the right way the first time. I would argue that was more so a lack of finances and/or outside expertise or the proper use of a mentor. I would argue that now we have more of both, so I say we dream big and leave the details to the engineers. As JLFJR referenced, the engineers said "It can be done."

When you look at the newer buildings on campus, both athletic and academic, both the vision and details have been right on, for the most part. This latest Williams expansion for example, readies the facility for 70,000 in the future.

[JLFJR]

It is but a difference in vision I believe. I spend 15-30 minutes every day dreaming of what this campus, this university, could be in 5, 10, 15 years. What it will look like and how it will function. I see things like the Vines renovated with a deck and suites. I see a football stadium with 70,000 seats. I see visitors wowed by the library and other academic buildings. I see 15,000 students worshipping together as one, in one renovated Vines. I see Green Hall with brick work the whole way to the top to match DeMoss and no more industrial siding. I see green grass where the Schilling once stood. I see campus police patrolling a beautiful on campus lake late at night to make sure no adventurous students may go for a dip. I see national prominance in academics and athletics. I see a 25,000 size student body still grounded in a fervent faith that would cause even the staunchest critics question what is so special that is happening here. I see future students choosing Liberty over UVA and Tech for the above mentioned reasons and beyond. I see 12 year old youth groupers in Texas wearing Flames gear and not the burnt orange and white (sorry Sly). I see a future President or two graduating from this University. I see a free standing business school with an excellent entrepreneurship program encouraging and challenging future students to dream bigger, much bigger, than even you and I can imagine today. I see a future Forbes list with Liberty graduates sprinkled in next to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, et al.

It is not that Haize lacks vision, no, it is a matter of not letting small details like sight lines get in the way of grand desires. In that respect we are very different, though that is not necessarily a bad thing. I would just rather let those trained in the details figure out a way to make it happen. The story of Henry Ford and the V-8 engine is a classic example. Ford had a vision for an 8-cylinder engine, and instructed to his engineers to make it happen. For quite some time they failed, and came back to Ford to say it cannot be done. Ford replied "It can be done and I'll have it." As they say the rest is history. Ford got his V-8, and although the first run wasn't perfect the design revolutionized the auto industry and cemented Ford as one of the great visionaries of his time. For other examples see the moon landing, skyscrapers, flight, and so on and so forth.

When God puts a desire or vision in a man's heart and it burns with a passion the likes of which the world has not yet seen, the details are sure to follow. We are all a product of one such vision are we not?

logic, I need to make sure you don't get too close to the Board of Trustees. Sounds like you would make a great Chancellor. And PH, you are right, we need to do it right the first time. We are going to great pains to make sure that happens. Finally, TH, the new civic center does include ice. Thanks for all the wise observations!

[TH Spangler]

Finally, TH, the new civic center does include ice. Thanks for all the wise observations!

Wow ... that's something for us hockey nuts to look forward tooooo!

[ballah09]

thanks jerry and logic, well said!

[4everfsu]

Finally, TH, the new civic center does include ice. Thanks for all the wise observations!

Wow ... that's something for us hockey nuts to look forward tooooo!

+1

[thepostman]

no we are a top 10 club team that means we would be an amazing NCAA D1 team too!!

[thepostman]

I agree completely

[ballah09]

why can't they have both?

a top 10 ACHA team and a NCAA team?

penn state is keeping their ACHA team. RMU and Mercyhurst both have them as well.

maybe i'm the only one that's optimistic that Liberty being the only hockey scholarship christian school in the US and Canada, can attract the top christian players in the world to compete

[Hold My Own]

After tonight's win over #1 Penn State that is currently having MILLIONS dumped into their program and going D1 NCAA next year might make some reconsider their stance


There is a significant increase in talent...and we're not quite there yet...but we're far closer than we should be considering the recruiting pitch currently involves "yes, you'll have to pay for school, but we have a really nice rink."

Just like football moving to FBS....once you do, the recruiting game completely changes.

[D-ZasterLU]

I love the 2500-3000 seat gym for volleyball and women's basketball. The crowds we get for some of those games would be amazing in a 3000 seat gym.

I really love our ladies. They do a great job and are real winners. I would love to see them get more support, and maybe a more exciting venue would be just the trick.

[jbock13]

Quick question. If we're eventually going to play at the civic center, then why are we building this new massive scoreboard?

[From the class of 09]

Quick question. If we're eventually going to play at the civic center, then why are we building this new massive scoreboard?

Because it will be nice to have until the civic center is built if its built. I can't see the city getting anything that big done for at least 5 years. But I could be wrong.

[bluedevilflame]

True. I like the conceptual look of the new Vines. IMO, that is really the only way it could be done. I think the new soccer fields and baseball stadium will be awesome.

Those pictures of the Vines make us look like big time college basketball, if only we can get the big time team to go with it

[Purple Haize]

Quick question. If we're eventually going to play at the civic center, then why are we building this new massive scoreboard?

Because we have the money to throw around? I agree it seems like a waste, unless there will be an ability to transfer it to new said Civic Center.

[Sly Fox]

And there is no reason to believe that wouldn't be the case. And once again, we are talking about several years down the road at the minimum.

[BJWilliams]

Id venture a guess that its going to take a year to build the civic center once ground is broken, but even then there is much more work to be done to even get it approved so Sly's probably right. We'll have plenty of time to make use of the scoreboard in the Vines Center before that sort of question needs to be addressed (the Civic Center is going to have to be built before we can shut down the Vines Center for renovation since everything is going to be moved there as JLFJR said in his interview)