[bigsmooth]

the capacity was reduced when they took out the bleachers in the tunnel and where they have the spot for the tv pre/post game show. i think the original capacity for hoops was 9,000. u- hall at the time the vines was built had reduced its capacity under 9,000 and cassell has always been slightly over 9,000. i think LU floated that 10,000 number for concerts.

[flamesfan30]

the problem is, with the planned growth, i think its time now to build something for 25,000 residential students. at that number we will need a facility that seats 18,000 for convo (keeping the current on: off-campus student ratio) to meet that requirement. there is no way to get the vines to this number, right? and the civic center plans sound incredibly short sighted with a capacity of 12,000 being floated. either convo goes multi-site, or they build something bigger. those are the two options that exist at the moment.

and the vines in my opionon is quite terrible for convo in its current state. the thanksgiving break convo was the first time all semester someone from our bro sis dorm hasn't had to sit in the stairwells. and at cfaw, it was a absolute mess. pretty sure we broke fire code by several thousand people with that one. but for basketball, its still more than adequate for what we are now.

[Purple Haize]

So find some objective measure that you want to measure the Vines center by.

When the Vines Center opened, the numbers we heard constantly were:
1. that it seated 10,000
2. that it seated MORE than UVa's University Hall and Tech's Cassell Coliseum.

We seem to have a fetish for the number 10,000. First it was total enrollment then it was on campus etc.. Makes ya think!

There is 10,000 then there is 10,000. Cameron Indoor 'seats' 10000.

[rogers3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Castle_Fieldhouse

What an impressive facility- and those wooden benches... why didn't we build something like that? We surely would be light years ahead of the competition with those.

For quite a while the Vines was larger than UHall. It has never exceeded Cassell in capacity, but it has always been a much nicer facility than Cassell.

[Purple Haize]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Castle_Fieldhouse

What an impressive facility- and those wooden benches... why didn't we build something like that? We surely would be light years ahead of the competition with those.

For quite a while the Vines was larger than UHall. It has never exceeded Cassell in capacity, but it has always been a much nicer facility than Cassell.

I was bringing it up in reference to high school gyms. The WigWam has fallen on hard times but that is what happens when you destroy the greatest high school basketball tournament in the history of the world. But that is for another thread! ( no not bitter about that at all! )

[Sly Fox]

For the record, New castle is not the largest HS hoops arena in the nation. The Berry Center about 20 minutes form my house seats 9500 (very close to Sandman's house ... incidentally where has he been?). Sly Jr. and I saw TobyMac record his live album there a few years ago.




It is attached to an 11k football stadium this is pretty sweet as well.



Then again, everything is bigger in Texas.

[Hold My Own]

Where on earth do you get the funding for that...that's unreal

[Purple Haize]

Not too shabby for your tax dollars!
You still never had the greatest high school basketball tournament in the history of.....history!
Also I believe the WigWam shuttered it's doors. That was back when Anderson and New Castle were having an arms race and had some fairly good hoopsters. One was named Alford I think!

[Hold My Own]

Not too shabby for your tax dollars!
You still never had the greatest high school basketball tournament in the history of.....history!
Also I believe the WigWam shuttered it's doors. That was back when Anderson and New Castle were having an arms race and had some fairly good hoopsters. One was named Alford I think!

You keep saying that...are you talking about the "Classic" that brought the likes of Odem to the Vines?

[Purple Haize]

Who was your Sport History instructor! I was referencing the Indiana High School Basketball tournament. Back when there were no classes. There was a little movie about it. Small feature, only won one Academy Award.
3-2-1 let er flyyyyy.....in and out.

Back when 68-72 000 people went to watch the state championship game.

[Sly Fox]

Yeah, it was similar in Illinois when I went to high school and the big uproar was splitting into big school and small school divisions.

As for why they would build big facilities here in Texas ... it is because we need big facilities here in Texas. We're getting overrun by Rust Belters desperate for jobs.

[rogers3]

For the record, New castle is not the largest HS hoops arena in the nation. The Berry Center about 20 minutes form my house seats 9500 (very close to Sandman's house ... incidentally where has he been?). Sly Jr. and I saw TobyMac record his live album there a few years ago.

Now that IS something to write home about! I say we just rip the dome off and add a nice tier around the whole place. Maybe we'll need the seats; the city would be dumb to get into an agreement to build something that LU will want for convo three times a week.

[logic]

Haize...the argument is pretty simple really. The Vines is more big-time in comparison to Williams when you compare it to....anything else really, whether it be high school or D1 college.

Sold out Vines > sold out Williams when looking at big-time.

Think about it...if a Michigan fan were to come on campus he/she would be unimpressed with Williams as the Big House seats 114,000 (and now they have night games!!!). They would however say "hey, but you have a decent basketball arena" as he/she would find it more similar to their arena that seats 13,000.

Now obviously Michigan stadium is the biggest, and logically I choose that to prove my point...but lets go smaller.

For Sly purposes, lets look at AM. Kyle field seats 82,000, while their basketball arena seats 13,000. Which facility on our campus would an Aggie fan be more impressed with?

[Sly Fox]

I try to never look at A&M unless other options are exhausted. But Kyle Field is an aging stadium that the school is seriously considering demolishing and rebuilding while playing home games at Reliant Stadium. Reed Arena is a much newer place that screams upscale in comparison to the football field. But from a sheer size perspective, you are correct that Kyle Field is much more imposing.

[Purple Haize]

Yeah, it was similar in Illinois when I went to high school and the big uproar was splitting into big school and small school divisions.

As for why they would build big facilities here in Texas ... it is because we need big facilities here in Texas. We're getting overrun by Rust Belters desperate for jobs.

I liked Illinois tournament. I like watch King play then watch some A school from the farm play.
I hoped Indiana would have gone to just 2 divisions. That way Small schools would still have that Hoosiers moment, while schools from Indy, South Bend etc could battle. But noooooooooo

logic, again you are not using any objective measurement. Feeling big time is a subjective thing. Anecdotally, I have had more people comment about how The Bill makes LU look big time. And trust me, I'm not a person influenced by something shiny and new.

[alabama24]

the city would be dumb to get into an agreement to build something that LU will want for convo three times a week.

I don't know whether it would be "dumb" or not, but having customers "three times a week" is a good thing. Your argument makes no sense.

FWIW - I think that the Vine's center is the best location for convo, but it is too small. I too wish it were built up, but adding 2,500 seats to an "upper deck" makes no sense in my mind. You need to add 10,000 new seats.

[Purple Haize]

I think you hit the issue on the head. We obviously have more people for convo then for MBB WBB or VB. so if you build it too big, then the place could seem empty for sporting events. If you cater to sporting events you need a new place for all the convo students. If you build an off campus civic center it would be a logistical nightmare to get students there and back 3 times a week for convo. If you went in with just the thought of using it for sporting events you run into two issues. 1 convenient access for students. Look at the other off campus arenas and the lack of student support. 2 could you fill it with enough dates outside of LU sporting events to make money or at least break even? Id be fairly certain Liberty would be paying a discounted price for its usage, so the next question would be what types of events could you lure here.

[logic]

Simple solution -

1. Expand the vines to 15,000 (large enough for Convo with 20,000 students)

2. Use curtains to hide the upper deck during basketball games (vines would look the same as it does now)


I've seen this done at places and it works well.

[Purple Haize]

Isn't 20k > 15k? Where are the other 5k gonna sit?
Curtains are sorta tacky. I can think of at least 2 better ways to make that happen.
Where would you put the extra seats? Would it be possible to add on to the Vines without gutting it?
Would the soil allow the footers and/or foundation for such an expansion.?

Simple solutions are fine but the devil is in the details.

[logic]

Haize my good man I mean no disrespect, but have you ever even been a student or at te very least worked at Liberty? While quite witty I am beginning to think you aren't as qualified to post on such topics as you claim to be.

It is common knowledge that kids who live off campus don't have to go to Convo. Only we students living in the dorms have attendance taken.

I estimated - 20K resident students = 14-15k on campus in dorms and another 5-6 off campus.

[Purple Haize]

1. Expand the vines to 15,000 (large enough for Convo with 20,000 students)

I guess that is what I get for taking what you type as being literal. Who knew the phrase 'convo with 20,000 students' actually didn't MEAN 20,000 students.

As for the rest of your statement

[Cider Jim]

Haize my good man I mean no disrespect, but have you ever even been a student or at te very least worked at Liberty? While quite witty I am beginning to think you aren't as qualified to post on such topics as you claim to be.

Haize, I've got your back on this one. Logic, you don't need to doubt this man's credentials: he used to earn his living evaluating athletic facilities.

[Purple Haize]

Haize my good man I mean no disrespect, but have you ever even been a student or at te very least worked at Liberty? While quite witty I am beginning to think you aren't as qualified to post on such topics as you claim to be.

Haize, I've got your back on this one. Logic, you don't need to doubt this man's credentials: he used to earn his living evaluating athletic facilities.

By 'evaluating athletic facilities' you mean 'screening Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Model'. Hubba Hubba !

[Cider Jim]

Logic, I've changed my mind (Haize can watch his own back).

[logic]

Haize


1. Expand the Vines to 15,000 (Large enough to support Convo with a total resident population of 20,000 students, assuming at most 70% live on campus and knowing off campus students are not required to attend)

Happy now old boy? Need to keep up with me, I was under the impression that you knew 20,000 resident students was the new goal. I've seen 20 mentioned a lot more often lately than the old 25.