[jmdickens]

Last week, John Smid, the former director of Love in Action, the country’s oldest and largest ex-gay ministry, acknowledged on his blog that, contrary to the claims of the movement he represented for decades, gay people cannot become straight. “I’ve never met a man who experienced a change from homosexual to heterosexual,” he wrote. He himself certainly has not. “I would consider myself homosexual and yet in a marriage with a woman,” he explained. He loves his wife and has no plans to leave her, but wrote, “this doesn’t change the fact that I am who I am and she is who she is.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -face.html

[Purple Haize]

It's similar to saying 'Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.". They just stay away from alcohol.

[RubberMallet]

thats pretty much my take.

[Purple Haize]

thats pretty much my take.

Well then obviously I need to change my stance on the matter

[ATrain]

Yup, the attraction doesn't go away...no matter how hard you try. How its handled is up to the individual, but now people are realising that no one just woke up and decided to be attracted to the same sex rather than the opposite one.

[flamehunter]

Just like a married man woke up and realized he can be attracted to women other than his wife. Does that make him abnormal? No. Does that make it OK for him to have relations with those to whom God has said not to? No.

[jmdickens]

I posted this article because of a discussion I was having with a former LU Law professor. Some of you that are much more knowledgeable about religious studies and philosophies of those religions will be much better at explaining this.

I am just somewhat confused about something I have been taught my entire life. I was always taught we are born with a sin nature and can be predisposed to certain "sins". However, if people are born gay, how is it a sin? An older music minister in my hometown has never been married, nor ever had a girlfriend and has no known lovers. My father is close with him and tells me that he believes this minister is attracted to other men, but because of his faith he chooses to live a life of celibacy. While that is good for him to do what he feels is right before God, he doesnt believe in original sin. Not the context of Adam and Eve and the Fall of Man, but merely that man does not bare any responsibility for their ancestors sins. His view seems to be that children are born without sin, but will eventually have their own depth into sin. So, is he sinning by being attracted to other men?

sorry about the long post......I just find it interesting because I know of some homosexuals who share their faith and are really reaching out for others to see Christ's love.

[Purple Haize]

You hit the crux of the issue. Are you born homosexual or do you chose it? And does it matter. To me, sin is sin but you are who you are, being a homosexual is not a sin. IMO it is no different then being an alcoholic or compulsive gambler. These are also heavily linked to genetics and heredity. Acting on those impulses is where sin comes into play. Also, the homosexual act is no greater a sin then lying to your boss about a report that is do and not done or taking something that isn't yours. There are places and things I know that I cannot go or do because the temptation to sin is very powerful and I don't want to stumble. Others do not face that challenge and that is fine.
That is a readers digest version. Hope it helps. Probably just confuses you more. But it is important, and I'm fairly certain Biblical to separate the sin from the sinner and go from there.

[RubberMallet]

if you ask me, i think we are all born with the proclivity to be homosexual. the potential is there for all of us. i believe its part of our sin nature in regards to the lust of the flesh. its just in how we feed that proclivity or don't feed that makes a difference. life experience and i also believe to an extent choice really pushes us to what we perceive as our decided sexuality.

there was a lady here locally, single lady, who had a child out of wedlock. she thought from birth that the child was gay and pushed ihm that direction. guess what? he's gay.

also, you hear "well there was that one kid who at even 8, you knew he was gay, how are they not born with it?" well i knew like 2 or 3 of those guys in hs. the ones that you were like, total gay. the 2 that i still know are total heteros. so that argument doestn' work for me.

all the homosexuals i know had some sort of sexual trauma in their life as a child or adolescent. i have to believe there are some homosexuals out there that this didn't happen to, but i've not yet become aquaintence enough with anyone willing to talk about it, that it hadn't.

i also believe that being gay is kind of a fad. i can expound upon that if necessary.

[Kolzilla41]

if you ask me, i think we are all born with the proclivity to be homosexual. the potential is there for all of us. i believe its part of our sin nature in regards to the lust of the flesh. its just in how we feed that proclivity or don't feed that makes a difference. life experience and i also believe to an extent choice really pushes us to what we perceive as our decided sexuality.

there was a lady here locally, single lady, who had a child out of wedlock. she thought from birth that the child was gay and pushed ihm that direction. guess what? he's gay.

also, you hear "well there was that one kid who at even 8, you knew he was gay, how are they not born with it?" well i knew like 2 or 3 of those guys in hs. the ones that you were like, total gay. the 2 that i still know are total heteros. so that argument doestn' work for me.

all the homosexuals i know had some sort of sexual trauma in their life as a child or adolescent. i have to believe there are some homosexuals out there that this didn't happen to, but i've not yet become aquaintence enough with anyone willing to talk about it, that it hadn't.

i also believe that being gay is kind of a fad. i can expound upon that if necessary.

This sums up what I have come to believe about homosexuality. My sister is gay, but we grew up in with a physically and verbally abusive alcoholic father. Plus, something happened with an older family member when she was younger. I've have met quite a few of her gay friends and they all have childhood experiences that are pretty disturbing and put mine to shame. We all have the ability in us to act on the things the Bible considers deviant but just like that music minister referenced above, we do have choice in how we handle that.

[ALUmnus]

Just so I'm clear: it's okay to be attracted to the same sex, to have uncontrollable lusts, and to have a mindset contrary to Scripture.......as long as we don't act on our thoughts.

I'm I getting that right? It doesn't matter what's in our mind, or what's in our heart, just so long as our actions give the impression that we're good Christian boys and girls. And just so long as we're only hurting ourselves, and not anyone else, it's not as bad.

Okay, just wanted to make sure I'm down with the latest.

[alabama24]

I was always taught we are born with a sin nature and can be predisposed to certain "sins".

A "sin nature" and committing "certain sins" are two separate issues. There are various theological explanations, (i.e. "Federal Headship" or "Natural Headship") but even a newborn child is considered a "sinner" positionally. Because people are brought into the world "with sin," we are prone to "commit sin."

Jesus said that to look after a woman lustfully is to commit adultery in one's heart. This speaks to the sinfulness of the human condition. No one would argue, however, that "looking" is as bad, or has as many consequences, as committing an affair. Nevertheless, this does not reduce the sinfulness of lust.

A happily married man may notice another attractive woman. How he responds is important. The more he feeds his desires, the more they grow, turning into lust. Eventually he may begin to take inappropriate "working lunches," telling himself "it's only a meal." With each step he walks closer to the edge of a cliff. Each of us makes choices, which have consequences that lead to other choices. The same is true for everyone, "homosexual" or otherwise.

[ALUmnus]

No one would argue, however, that "looking" is as bad, or has as many consequences, as committing an affair. Nevertheless, this does not reduce the sinfulness of lust.

I don't think you can say that universally. And what's with all this "as bad as" stuff? Is this a competition to see who can keep their sin-points to the lowest score?

[alabama24]

I don't think you can say that universally. And what's with all this "as bad as" stuff? Is this a competition to see who can keep their sin-points to the lowest score?

I think you misunderstand me. Sin is sin. There is no doubt about that. In the Old Testament, there were different punishments for different sins. Some sins could get you killed! In the New Testament, Jesus raised the bar. If you look at a woman lustfully, you have committed adultery in your heart.

The sin is not the desire, it is what you do with the desire. This must be explained, however. Acting upon your desires does not just mean having an affair - it could be looking at a woman lustfully. The person who convinces himself "well at least I am not that bad" is deluded. The language I used "as bad as" was probably a poor choice. My point is that it is easier to roll downhill. One bad choice makes it easier to make another.

I believe that the act of homosexuality is a sin. Using the Lord's saying in a different context "when a man looks at another man lustfully" he commits sin. It may not be the outward act of homosexuality, but mentally & spiritually he has committed that sin against God.

Just so I'm clear: it's okay to be attracted to the same sex, to have uncontrollable lusts, and to have a mindset contrary to Scripture.......as long as we don't act on our thoughts.

I would not agree with those who hold this position. The one area where I think you need to be careful is in the first clause. I don't know if same sex attraction is sinful. I am unaware of any Scriptures which deal with the subject. I know that theologians, sociologists & scientists will argue over nature vs. nurture. I think it is probably a little of both. There are "homosexual" animals after all, if rare. If this is indeed a "natural" desire, I believe it is a result of the fall of creation. It is my guess that most of homosexuality is a result of nurture. [This does not necessarily mean just the environment you were born in... it also means a result of the choices you have made. In other words, people can foster/nurture a desire for homosexuality.]

Two things I am sure of, however. Homosexuality is a sin and Evangelicals treat it as the worst of sins. I agree with you ALUmnus that the Christian life is not about keeping some arbitrary set of sin-points to the lowest score. All believers must be growing in holiness. Part of that means extending grace to others while not condoning their sin. Even homosexuals.

[Purple Haize]

Just so I'm clear: it's okay to be attracted to the same sex, to have uncontrollable lusts, and to have a mindset contrary to Scripture.......as long as we don't act on our thoughts.

I'm I getting that right? It doesn't matter what's in our mind, or what's in our heart, just so long as our actions give the impression that we're good Christian boys and girls. And just so long as we're only hurting ourselves, and not anyone else, it's not as bad.

Okay, just wanted to make sure I'm down with the latest.

This makes no sense. Thoughts and actions are two different things. By acting on impure thought no matter if you only hurt yourself is still wrong. Having the impure thought is human nature. Controlling those impure thoughts, in everyday, is where the spiritual battle is.

[flamehunter]

Are thoughts only momentary things that pop into your mind then you immediately dismiss them knowing it's wrong? Or do you mean it is ok to sit and think about sex with another woman (or man) but as long as you don't actually do it you're ok?
I believe the minute we allow a thought about evil to linger in our mind and derive some personal satisfaction from it, it becomes sin. The real difference here is we need to distinguish between thoughts and temptations. It is not sin to be tempted (Jesus was), but dwelling on it is. We are repeatedly warned in scripture to guard our thoughts because as you think in your heart, so you are.

[Purple Haize]

Are thoughts only momentary things that pop into your mind then you immediately dismiss them knowing it's wrong? Or do you mean it is ok to sit and think about sex with another woman (or man) but as long as you don't actually do it you're ok?
I believe the minute we allow a thought about evil to linger in our mind and derive some personal satisfaction from it, it becomes sin. The real difference here is we need to distinguish between thoughts and temptations. It is not sin to be tempted (Jesus was), but dwelling on it is. We are repeatedly warned in scripture to guard our thoughts because as you think in your heart, so you are.

I would consider "dwelling on it" as an action

[RubberMallet]

i believe thats fair.