[jbock13]

It's looking like now they killed him yesterday. Stupid media lying to us

What I find interesting will be Pakistan's reaction to this. I figured he was hiding in Pakistan because, as we all know, Pakistan's military is half and half pro-radical. Had the U.S told Pakistan about this operation, some elements in the army no doubt would have tipped off for bin Laden to leave. Also, Pakistan has been very upset by us entering their country.

So, I'm curious to see how that turns out.

[kiltsareitchy07]

The US violated international law by conducting military operations within the borders of another sovereign nation without its consent. I know that Pakistan is 7 types of dysfunctional, but technically, the law is the law. There was no way the Pakistanis knew what we were up to, precisely because the ISI has been in bed with al Qaeda/bin Laden/Taliban/any other Deobandi Islamic organization ever since the 1990s. I'm not suggesting that the US is evil, but it does raise the question of whether or not international law should be respected in all cases, or only in the ones we want it to be.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing or a good thing that bin Laden is dead, because I don't know what to think. On the one hand, an iconic symbol for al Qaeda is dead, killed by the hands of people whom the crazies said couldn't touch him. That, and the fact that al Qaeda has played no role in the "Arab Spring" [yet], suggests al Qaeda has received a swift kick to the cojones. And that is a good thing. However, terrorism isn't dead, nor will it ever be. These guys are like one big hydra: you cut off one head, others take its place. We'll see what kind of fallout results in Pakistan, a place I think is a lynchpin in the war on terror.

[LUconn]

The US violated international law by conducting military operations within the borders of another sovereign nation without its consent. I know that Pakistan is 7 types of dysfunctional, but technically, the law is the law. There was no way the Pakistanis knew what we were up to, precisely because the ISI has been in bed with al Qaeda/bin Laden/Taliban/any other Deobandi Islamic organization ever since the 1990s. I'm not suggesting that the US is evil, but it does raise the question of whether or not international law should be respected in all cases, or only in the ones we want it to be.

Who is the enforcers of international law? Us? The UN (who's teeth is, again, us)? It's not fair, blah blah, but it's a perk of being a superpower.

[RubberMallet]

i'm sure we'll slap ourselves on the wrist.

there is still much that will develop on this before i'm able to wrap around my thoughts on this.

its interesting to see us hooting and hollering in the streets like a bunch of neanderthals. its like America is finally starting to act like the Third World nation it's fast-becoming. But I guess when you don't have a job to go to on Monday AM, you find your happiness somewhere?

love the conspiracy theory crap that comes with this. though. excited for coast to coast this week.

[flamesfan30]

just wrote a 16 page paper on something similiar and yea, we are the world hyperpower/ hegemon for the moment. that will change in 10-15 years as the world shifts from unipolar to a system of multipolarity, with the rise of east asia and brazil. but that being said, pakistan has nukes. and if the salafis gain political control of pakistan like they have in egypt things could get out of hand quickly.

[jbock13]

excited for coast to coast this week.

Isn't it always exciting?

[ballah09]

but he died in 07

[youtube]

[/youtube]


I love the timing of this. birth certificate, Trump roast, now this, all near election time. If you followed twitter you would've think Obama personally killed Osama

anyway im not a conspiracy theorist tho, so congrats to Obama and the military.

[jbock13]

I'm no Trump fan, but look.

1. Obama releases birth certificate. (which Trump demanded).
2. Obama slams Trump at dinner.
3. Obama interrupts the final segments of the celebrity apprentice.

Anybody find a pattern here?

[Cider Jim]

3. Obama interrupts the final segments of the celebrity apprentice.

I'm glad somebody brought that up. Mrs. Cider was NOT happy.

As important as the Obama news was, couldn't it have waited TEN minutes so that we could see Trump fire Hope?

[RubberMallet]

131 pages of awesome

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread697160/pg1

[jbock13]

3. Obama interrupts the final segments of the celebrity apprentice.

I'm glad somebody brought that up. Mrs. Cider was NOT happy.

As important as the Obama news was, couldn't it have waited TEN minutes so that we could see Trump fire Hope?

That was the point. And yeah I wasn't happy either.

[Purple Haize]

COVERT - I would like to know where they source the "100's of thousands" number that the US has killed or have been killed since 9/11. Are they still using the bogus report from the Iraq war and extrapolating it Afghanistan.
This is where I break from the Libertarian mindset. We ARE a Superpower and I don't think we should apologize for it. If the Paki's aren't going to do the job to get Bin Laden then screw em, we will do it ourselves. If they don't like it, I'll give them the number to the complaint department. ALL nations act in their best interests and we acted in ours. If the Pakistani's don't want to help, guess what, we asked nice but we are coming in anyways. I have no problem with it. I believe history shows that we are more benevolent than any other "super power" in history. If the Russians, Nazis, the Spanish Empire, the Aztecs, Babylonians etc had the same military and economic superiority they would be farrrrr less charitable then the USA. We are the most generous country on the face of the earth. I am not talking government 'charity' I am talking about the American people. We embarass the world with our willingness to help. Heck, even if you went with government money, how many countries owe their very existence to the largess of the USA?
The SOB is dead. If Musharaff doesn't like it he can call 1 800 IDONTCARE

[jbock13]

For the record Haize, as a libertarian, Lew Rockwell is a bunch of anarchal nonsense.

Just my opinion. Covert is free to like him if he wishes.

[Covert Hawk]

COVERT - I would like to know where they source the "100's of thousands" number that the US has killed or have been killed since 9/11. Are they still using the bogus report from the Iraq war and extrapolating it Afghanistan.
This is where I break from the Libertarian mindset. We ARE a Superpower and I don't think we should apologize for it. If the Paki's aren't going to do the job to get Bin Laden then screw em, we will do it ourselves. If they don't like it, I'll give them the number to the complaint department. ALL nations act in their best interests and we acted in ours. If the Pakistani's don't want to help, guess what, we asked nice but we are coming in anyways. I have no problem with it. I believe history shows that we are more benevolent than any other "super power" in history. If the Russians, Nazis, the Spanish Empire, the Aztecs, Babylonians etc had the same military and economic superiority they would be farrrrr less charitable then the USA. We are the most generous country on the face of the earth. I am not talking government 'charity' I am talking about the American people. We embarass the world with our willingness to help. Heck, even if you went with government money, how many countries owe their very existence to the largess of the USA?
The SOB is dead. If Musharaff doesn't like it he can call 1 800 IDONTCARE

He is likely referring to a study from 2006 that estimated 600,000 Iraqi deaths due to the invasion published in The Lancet That was 2006, current estimates using the same methods are nearly one and a half million deaths.

Secondly, the point of the article was to show that the execution of Bin Laden does not justify the occupation of Afghanistan or the invasion of Iraq. The Patriot Act and Torture also does not justify this.

Finally, when you say we shouldn't apologize for being a "superpower," what do you mean? Should we not apologize for the Thrill Killers, who murdered random civililians, cutting body parts off as trophies, and taking photographs of them? Should we not apologize the murder of the journalists and civilians captured in the Collateral Murder video? Are all foreigners subhuman beings who have no rights because they have the misfortune of not being born in this country?

By the way, arguing that U.S. hegemony is better that other brutal totalitarian regimes is setting the bar really low, and does nothing to sway me.

[jbock13]

Let me just simplistically say that I believe the U.S isn't evil, but we don't have any right to get in anybody's business all over the war. In fact, I really believe the War on Terror is causing more problems than it is doing any good.

Sorry, I'm watching baseball and am incapable of thinking too hard right now

[Covert Hawk]

For the record Haize, as a libertarian, Lew Rockwell is a bunch of anarchal nonsense.

Just my opinion. Covert is free to like him if he wishes.

Perhaps, you should give Anarcho-Capitalism another chance.

[bravo269er]

What a great day, and I envy the guy from Seal Team 6 who got the shots in. The only thing this means is that we will eventually get you, and that you can run but you will only die tired. It doesn't dent terrorism but the symbolism is huge. Who cares about international law? You guys gotta get real. If you tell them your doing the raid Bin Laden isn't going to be killed because he'll be tipped off. I've personally been attacked from across the border when I was in the Stan, and when we'd talk to our "ally" the Pakistaniarmy they'd claim they saw nothing although their HQ was less than a click from the mountain where the insurgents were attacking us from. They had a plain line of site and could easily see the insurgents but chose to ignore it. It's the nature of the beast. Just be happy that the guy is dead, and for many there is closure.

[01LUGrad]

I've got a buddy that is on SEAL Team 2. This is the first spring that he has spent Stateside in 4 years. I talked to him this morning and he said he basically would have given [something important] to be apart of the team that went in.

By the way, being from the Norfolk area, I have had the chance to get to know about half a dozen SEALS over the past 10 years or so. Those guys are made of something that is not standard issue for the rest of us. Playing paitball with them is one of the most intense things I have ever done...and they are only shooting paint.

[Purple Haize]

COVERT - Nice leap in logic you have there. Not sure where you strain "non human" out of my post but hey, go with it, I guess.
The Lancet article was the one I was refering too. That has been so discredited that it is worthless and then to use that same "study" design to put it at over 1.5 million is laughable.
. The Wikileaks folks have every bit as much as an agenda as those they oppose. Perhaps our idea of what war fare is may differ. I subscribe to the kill people and break things. To paraphrase Frank Drebin, "When I see armed men in a crowd and the shoot at me, I shoot back at them, that's my policy". So if you have several armed people in a group, can you really differentiate between an AK 47 or a Nikon Eos? If I lived in Iraq and am hanging around ARMED MEN, I really wouldn't be shocked to be shot at, especially if people in my group were shooting at THEM! It is unfortunate, that the children were hurt. But do you honestly believe that those soldiers were intentionally aiming at them? Please. Even in the "close up" of the video, you can not tell that they were kids. I agree 100% with them when they said, "Its their (parents) fault for bringing their kids into a gun battle"
What I think was also overlooked was the LACK of damage around the square. Just those people were killed. The surrounding buildings were not indiscriminately blown up. When the wounded journalist was crawling, they did not shoot him. Were the 'hoping' he picked up a weapon, yes, but they were disciplined enough to exercise trigger control. Kudos to them. And finally, why are the Americans, who tried to save the kids being bashed for not going to what the Wiki folks think would be a better hospital?
Nice try though.

[Covert Hawk]

COVERT - Nice leap in logic you have there. Not sure where you strain "non human" out of my post but hey, go with it, I guess.
The Lancet article was the one I was refering too. That has been so discredited that it is worthless and then to use that same "study" design to put it at over 1.5 million is laughable.
. The Wikileaks folks have every bit as much as an agenda as those they oppose. Perhaps our idea of what war fare is may differ. I subscribe to the kill people and break things. To paraphrase Frank Drebin, "When I see armed men in a crowd and the shoot at me, I shoot back at them, that's my policy". So if you have several armed people in a group, can you really differentiate between an AK 47 or a Nikon Eos? If I lived in Iraq and am hanging around ARMED MEN, I really wouldn't be shocked to be shot at, especially if people in my group were shooting at THEM! It is unfortunate, that the children were hurt. But do you honestly believe that those soldiers were intentionally aiming at them? Please. Even in the "close up" of the video, you can not tell that they were kids. I agree 100% with them when they said, "Its their (parents) fault for bringing their kids into a gun battle"
What I think was also overlooked was the LACK of damage around the square. Just those people were killed. The surrounding buildings were not indiscriminately blown up. When the wounded journalist was crawling, they did not shoot him. Were the 'hoping' he picked up a weapon, yes, but they were disciplined enough to exercise trigger control. Kudos to them. And finally, why are the Americans, who tried to save the kids being bashed for not going to what the Wiki folks think would be a better hospital?
Nice try though.

Regardless, of what study the author in my original post was referring to, (official body counts done still list the death tolls between 98,170 to 151,000) it is still a price too high!

Secondly, my leap in logic was directed at your quote that America doesn't have to apologize for being a Superpower. What do you mean by that?

As far as the collateral murder video goes, I will just point out that two soldiers from that Army Unit have written an open-letter of "Reconciliation and Responsibility" to those injured in the July 2007 attack.

[jbock13]

I don't mind capitalism. Its the anarchy that I can live without. But I guess it just goes to show you that there's so many different shades of libertarianism.

[4everfsu]

Bin Laden Martini, 2 shots and a splash(borrowed)

[Purple Haize]

COVERT - Body counts are not a great way to judge the validity of a war. What number would YOU say is NOT too high? If it is 1000, then when the 1001st person dies, do we leave? More soldiers died on the last DAY of WW I then have died in the Iraq war. (11k v ~4400) What price would you have been willing to pay during the American Revolution. A war that less then 1/2 the population supported? What about the War of Northern Aggression/Civil War? Talk about unpopular, especially on the 'winning' side. The Cold War?
I believe in American exceptionalism. How this, in your mind makes the rest of the worlds population sub human, I have no idea.
War is messy. People are killed. I have a sneaking suspicion that taking the life of another is a traumatic experience. Those who have done so deal with that emotional fall out differently. If those soldiers want to write an open letter, great. What about the rest involved? What occured in that village was traumatic, not criminal.

[Covert Hawk]

COVERT - Body counts are not a great way to judge the validity of a war. What number would YOU say is NOT too high? If it is 1000, then when the 1001st person dies, do we leave? More soldiers died on the last DAY of WW I then have died in the Iraq war. (11k v ~4400) What price would you have been willing to pay during the American Revolution. A war that less then 1/2 the population supported? What about the War of Northern Aggression/Civil War? Talk about unpopular, especially on the 'winning' side. The Cold War?
I believe in American exceptionalism. How this, in your mind makes the rest of the worlds population sub human, I have no idea.
War is messy. People are killed. I have a sneaking suspicion that taking the life of another is a traumatic experience. Those who have done so deal with that emotional fall out differently. If those soldiers want to write an open letter, great. What about the rest involved? What occured in that village was traumatic, not criminal.

I happen to be against American Exceptionalism. I'm against it because it is the view that your country (actually, your government) is better than anyone else’s, and has the right to rule others through aggression, conquest, and occupation. Those foreigners who oppose your government's aggression, conquest, and occupation are branded "insurgents" and must be crushed. Any citizens caught in the crossfire are merely "collateral damage." Never mind what those people want for their own country, they must succumb to the Federal Governments demands.

And for the record, I don't believe the Iraq war was worth one American or Iraqi life.

[jbock13]

Well, the United States is better than every other country in the world. However, that doesn't give us an excuse to just invade every country we want.