[Dan P]

L Fan-

Good info! I know Jason has been working this issue for quite some time. I would hate to think LU was on that list -- probably not the legacy Barber had in mind when he came to LU.

Came across this earlier today:
http://www.libertyflames.com/index.cfm?PID=20685

2010-11 PROemag Wrestling Guide

Note page 30 and 31! WOW ----

[BJWilliams]

Im pretty sure that Mr Barber's legacy is going to extend further than one decision...and as I said before...even if the wrestling program is allowed to maintain varsity status, its going to take both sides (the wrestling supporters and donors as well as the athletic department) doing their full measure financially to make sure we dont revisit this situation in five or ten or 20 years

[Aaron Bruce]

L Fan-

Good info! I know Jason has been working this issue for quite some time. I would hate to think LU was on that list -- probably not the legacy Barber had in mind when he came to LU.

Came across this earlier today:
http://www.libertyflames.com/index.cfm?PID=20685

2010-11 PROemag Wrestling Guide

Note page 30 and 31! WOW ----

Man, bringing back the memories! Page 37 has a picture of the moment before I challenged Jerry to a match. Somewhere in my junk room, I have a mid-air action shot of Jerry picking me up and slamming me. The student body went nuts! I truly believe Jerry had a special place in his heart for us wrestlers. He knew we were a special breed and sometimes didn’t fit inside the box that a lot of the “establishment” often places the students in. I think he enjoyed our certain "rebellion" to the status quo and somewhat identified with us.

I’ll never forget the day that I saw Jerry coming when I was talking to my workout partner, Scott Wall. Scott was a stocky 177 lber. Jerry was sneaking up behind Scott and gave me the, “shush” sign by putting his finger to his lips. Next thing you know, Jerry open hand smacks Scott right on the back of the head. I mean he SMAKED him! Scott’s head literally bounced forward. Scott, being the “Type-A” wrestler, spins a 180 with his fists up ready to let them fly. I have never laughed so hard in my life! You should have seen Scott’s reaction when he realized he about landed one on the chin of the Chancellor. Jerry said, “Whoa son, I wasn’t looking for a fight.”

Jerry was a good man. I Thank God daily for the vision He gave Jerry and the fact that the vision allowed me to be mentored on the wrestling mat with such quality people.

[Aaron Bruce]

Im pretty sure that Mr Barber's legacy is going to extend further than one decision...and as I said before...even if the wrestling program is allowed to maintain varsity status, its going to take both sides (the wrestling supporters and donors as well as the athletic department) doing their full measure financially to make sure we dont revisit this situation in five or ten or 20 years

I do not disagree with you at all. I think that every supporter of the various programs needs to step up. But, I do wonder, why are you singling out the wrestling team? As was mentioned earlier, the wrestlers had the 5th highest amount of donations of all 18 sports. But, most importantly, I do not think this was a money issue. We have been able to provide the student body with an incredible array of activities/facilities-we even have a snowless ski slope. Financially, the school seems to be on very solid ground thanks to the blessing of God.

[BJWilliams]

Because 1) the wrestling team does not have a conference affiliation as opposed to just about every other sport on campus (outside of field hockey but they havent actually launched yet so they dont really count in that regard) and the fact that there were commitments that were not kept (from what I can tell reading the stories behind the reinstatement) or were at the very least had to be modified from those who wanted to see the sport brought back to varsity status and so because this would be the second time the sport was reinstated, they are going to have a higher burden of proof as opposed to the other Olympic sports.

[Dan P]

Because 1) the wrestling team does not have a conference affiliation as opposed to just about every other sport on campus (outside of field hockey but they havent actually launched yet so they dont really count in that regard) and the fact that there were commitments that were not kept (from what I can tell reading the stories behind the reinstatement) or were at the very least had to be modified from those who wanted to see the sport brought back to varsity status and so because this would be the second time the sport was reinstated, they are going to have a higher burden of proof as opposed to the other Olympic sports.

BJ - I think you've got this wrong .... there were not commitments that weren't kept. See my notes from the meeting held with the AD and Chancellor (on 7 April). The supporters of the program came back to Jerry Sr. with the numbers they felt they could actually raise --- and year after year, they have attained those goals.
But it does not matter --- the AD stated that this has nothing to do with money -- it's a title IX issue. If it were money motivated, I have someone that could make that problem "go away". He wanted to come to the meeting with me on Thursday (7 April), but I didn't feel it was right to bring people into the meeting that Jerry didn't invite.
BJ ---- do you know something I don't? PM me and let's discuss --- seriously, if it is all about $ - we should be able to work this out.

As for conference affiliation .... if the BSC is the high water mark for LU, then --- okay, I agree. Wrestling is not sponsored. BUT --- if the ACC or something similar is the goal, why in the world would you cut the only sports program that has defeated the 2 time ACC champs?!?

[BJWilliams]

Im not saying that the Big South is the high watermark for LU as far as conference affiliation (if youve looked at any discussion outside of the wrestling forum you know that there are some...how you say...less than stellar feelings about where we are currently from many of the regular posters on this board...) but having someplace to "call home" certainly helps. If there is an opportunity for LU to step up to a higher profile conference LIKE the ACC, Im sure that LU would give it some serious consideration. Now that being said, one sport's success against one team does not an athletic program make...if LU were to step up in conference, you want ALL the teams (or at least as many of them as possible) to be successful in that conference. Our men's and women's basketball teams, probably our soccer teams and softball teams (and probably a few others) would get DESTROYED in the ACC. When the time is right for the school to make a move as an overall department it will be made, but not just because of one sport.

[4everfsu]

I think the ski slope came about from a gift from a donor if I am not mistaken.

[Dan P]

I think the ski slope came about from a gift from a donor if I am not mistaken.

I think so did the wrestling room . See pages 30 and 31 in here:
http://www.libertyflames.com/index.cfm?PID=20685
and then here- http://catalog.proemags.com/publication ... a8f0bcae/1

Aaron B ----- GREAT picture of you & Jerry Sr. on page 37! (and the story behind the picture!)

and then from this website: http://www.libertyflames.com/index.cfm?PID=20686

During the summer of 2009, the wrestling room underwent renovation after a generous capital gift given by wrestling supporters Troy and Tina Wiseman. During the weekend of Oct. 30 and 31, the Wiseman family was publically honored at the wrestling program’s intrasquad scrimmage and the Flames’ football game against Presbyterian.

“It is quite an honor for us to be part of what God is doing, not just through Liberty wrestling, but at Liberty University as a whole,” stated Wiseman. “The late Dr. Jerry Falwell’s commitment and vision for all Liberty Athletics was and still is today dedicated to success, not just in terms of producing winning seasons and achieving individual accomplishments, but in utilizing the athletic skills to further the Gospel.“

“Chancellor Jerry Falwell, Jr., the Liberty staff and students understand that excellence in education and in athletics provides such a greater platform for the glory of God and they are 100 percent committed to becoming the best they can be,” continued Wiseman. “The Wiseman family could not think of a better institution to support and are blessed to part of the Liberty family.

Thanks to the generosity of the Wiseman family and the Founder’s Circle, an organization that spearheaded wrestling return to Liberty Mountain five years ago, Liberty’s wrestling is certainly a program which is building toward success.

[Aaron Bruce]

Because 1) the wrestling team does not have a conference affiliation as opposed to just about every other sport on campus (outside of field hockey but they havent actually launched yet so they dont really count in that regard)

Actually, I don’t think the conference recognizes Field Hockey, Lacrosse, or Swimming.

[BJWilliams]

Swimming is recognized by the Big South although it is not a "Big South" championship. It is under the (hoping I remember this right) Coastal Collegiate Swimming Association. Lacrosse on the women's side that I know of is only offered by one other program in the Big South and that is High Point and both of them are under the National Lacrosse Conference.

[Dan P]

Okay ---- so .....
1) we've crossed off "funding" as a reason the program was dropped.
2) we can cross off "being the only sports team not sponsored by the BSC" as the reason the program was dropped.
3) after presenting a logical plan of roster management to achieve prong I compliance, we can cross that off as a reason to drop the program.

[BJWilliams]

Someone asked for my take on this. Here it is.

I am heartbroken about the impact this decision will have on the team members and so many others. Last night, my family ate dinner at Cracker Barrel. At the next table was a family that had moved back to Lynchburg in 2006 because wrestling was reinstated as a sport. The 17 year old son had planned to wrestle at Liberty. Athletics hired a nationally respected consultant and looked at all the options Liberty had available to it to meet the Title IX requirements. After studying the issue for many months, they concluded that the elimination of wrestling was the only option that made sense for Liberty. My father was forced to drop the wrestling program in the 1990s because of a lack of finances after it had been very successful at Liberty for many years (sorry to blow your theory 4everfsu). When finances improved, Dad was reluctant to reinstate wrestling because of Title IX issues but it was reinstated in 2006 after many who advocated for its return promised to raise a certain amount per year to support the program. They never were able to meet their fundraising goals but LU kept its commitment to wrestling until the federal government's Title IX regulations made it impossible to continue. LU has already invested millions to start three new women's sports to offset the return of wrestling in 2006 and would have to continue to add more and more new women's sports in the future if wrestling continued as a NCAA sport. This is because of a national trend of more women than men attending college. LU's ratio of women to men has grown from 50-50 to 52-48 in the last few years and projections show it will soon be 54-46. Over the last year, I asked the VP of Enrollment Management to try and recruit more men to prevent something like this from happening. At first, they thought it would be easy but soon reported back to me that they were unable to change the percentages without turning away many highly qualified women. We even explored the idea of finding private funding to replace all the government loans and grants that our students receive. Grove City College tried that but finally gave up because they simply could not find enough private investors but we also learned that, even if we could find $500 million or so per year in private funding, it would not exempt us from Title IX.

Athletics recommended the termination of wrestling instead of soccer, track or baseball partly because wrestling is not part of the Big South or any other conference. It is true that LU is doing well financially but that does not mean that we should throw out good business practices. Continuing to add more and more women's programs is very costly. Scholarships, locker rooms, new facilities are always part of that equation and the numbers add up fast. Plus, our board feels that about 20 NCAA sports is the right number for Liberty. There are some schools that have more but we do do not feel that going higher makes sense for Liberty.

This is what happens when the federal government sticks its nose in the business of private organizations. No matter how good the government's intentions might be, the end result of almost every government program is disastrous for the people it was intended to help.

I dont think that you can cross #2 off actually...

[Dan P]

But, BJ, Wrestling isn't the only LU sport not part of the BSC. (That was #2).

I understand what the chancellor wrote, but wrestling is not the only sport not part of the BSC. (pardon the double negitive!)

[BJWilliams]

I understand that...I referenced two others... (although field hockey doesnt count because it hasnt actually played any official games yet other than the spring scrimmages last week or so). My point is that having a conference affiliation probably played into the decision to some degree. Wrestling is I think the only male sport (outside of the club level but that is another story for another day) that is not affiliated with the Big South or any conference really...

[Dan P]

This morning I heard that after a thorough review of how to address the title Ix issue, the Chancellor has officiatelly decided to support the AD's decision to ax the wrestling team. Obviously, this is not shocking news --

What is fascinating is the reason I was given for this action. It had to do with how the other male sports would be less competitive if we were to conduct roster management as I recommended. (Even though this is exactly what Big-10 and Big-12 schools do).

Jerry was "convinced that a number of those sports would be much less competitive than they are now if we took that approach."

While I disagree with the Chancellor that the other teams would be less competitive; his assessment is at least consistent with the line Jeff Barber espoused. However, with my recommendations, these teams would have still been within the range of the national average of roster slots.

Interestingly enough, some of the male teams' coaches disagree with the AD's assertion that they would be less competitive by a modest roster reduction. But I guess the wrestlers, their parents, alums, and supporters of the wrestling program will just have to be comforted in knowing that the AD, who apparently knows more than these "foolish" coaches about the competiveness of their sport, is keeping their better interest at heart.

[4everfsu]

Ok now it is over, life goes on. If this is the worst thing that happens to anyone in their life that wrestling is dropped, then count your life bless so far.

[SuperJon]

Interestingly enough, some of the male teams' coaches disagree with the AD's assertion that they would be less competitive by a modest roster reduction.

That's just dumb. Everyone knows that a significant amount of loss for any team would make them less competitive.

Here's the truth: We had to cut over 70 male participations in athletics. We had three options:

1) Cut football.

2) Cut a large amount of athletes from every sport thus making them much less competitive in every sport across the board.

3) Cut a sport with a large number of athletes and cut a minimal amount of players from the other teams.

Any person with Liberty's best interest at heart would know that option 3 was the best option. We still have to cut close to 40 athletes from other sports and that will take three years to do.

This whole situation sucks, especially for wrestlers and their parents, but it was the best result for Liberty University. At the end of the day, I want what's best for the school that I have multiple degrees from and worked at for multiple years. If that means that wrestling gets cut then that means wrestling gets cut. No amount of whining or posturing is going to get that changed. The people handling this know more than anyone on this board possibly claims to.

[Aaron Bruce]

Ok now it is over, life goes on. If this is the worst thing that happens to anyone in their life that wrestling is dropped, then count your life bless so far.

My wife left my son and I 10 years ago when my son was 3 years old and lost my alma mater wrestling program. I know you won’t understand as it is a wrestler thing but I can honestly say that they both hurt equally. I mean this with absolute sincerity. I am not sure what it is, I suppose men who have been in combat might share the sentiment. At least my wife didn’t come back into our lives just so she could rip our heart out a second time. I suppose it is most sentimental to a man that recognizes that quite possibly he would never have entered into eternal life if it wasn’t for this program. Although I fully realize that God could have found another way, I still am faced with the fact that he chose this one. I initially entered into college at Purdue University. Let’s just say, if I hadn’t transferred, God would have had his hand full (haha)

Foreverfsu, I am thankful that you have said that you were disappointed that Liberty chose this option. I know you feel our pain but I wanted to share this even so.

BTW, I LOVE your Signature

[4everfsu]

Aaron Bruce, I was young once and had dreams also. While at LBC I was in chapel sitting in the back, reading my home town newspaper the Tampa Tribune and came to the sport section that read that the University of Tampa dropped its football team. Me I had followed the team since my childhood, went to games, etc, big fan. Was it devastating at the time? Yes but like I said I was young. Looking back at it, in the scheme of things that have happened in my life it is such a minor blip that really I can look back and laugh about it now.
As my mom would say Roms 8:28. It does not say everything that happens to you is good, but everything adds up for good. I think of this verse as God's algebra, where He can take this negative number(situation) along with this negative number(situation) and it still turns out positive(situation) for me or anyone else.
I honestly believe the wrestling coaches and wrestlers will have good things happen to them even with this sport being dropped. After all, before the foundation of the world, God knew all about this situation coming about. I pray for Gods directions in their life and for LU`s growth along the path of its original mission.

[PAmedic]

VERY DISAPPOINTING.

I had hoped for a 11th hour come from behind save but apparently it was not to be.

I have faith though that all things work together for good, but this is a real shame.

God Bless Coach Castro and all the guys, may they land on their feet.

[Sly Fox]

Agreed, Medic.

No one is happy about this situation or how it turned out. Hopefully the success Coach Castro and the squad had the past few years will open up great opportunities for all moving forward.

[Purple Haize]

Agreed, Medic.

No one is happy about this situation or how it turned out. Hopefully the success Coach Castro and the squad had the past few years will open up great opportunities for all moving forward.

+1

[logic]

Back to VISION....

http://www.tcudailyskiff.com/mobile/new ... -1.2545972

TCU applicants up 38%.....38%!!!!!!!!!! After winning the Rose Bowl. Football / basketball....anyone who does not understand this is off the reservation...way out in left field. Anyone who thinks football gets too much is delusional. There are haves and have nots...we have the resources to make it big, to seriously make a run at the elite. THAT is the vision - let us make it happen!!!

[Aaron Bruce]

Back to VISION....

http://www.tcudailyskiff.com/mobile/new ... -1.2545972

TCU applicants up 38%.....38%!!!!!!!!!! After winning the Rose Bowl. Football / basketball....anyone who does not understand this is off the reservation...way out in left field. Anyone who thinks football gets too much is delusional. There are haves and have nots...we have the resources to make it big, to seriously make a run at the elite. THAT is the vision - let us make it happen!!!

I think you are on the wrong board...