[jbock13]

I like green eggs and ham.

[Dan P]

I liked wrestling until this thread.

Without this thread and some of the people who contribute to it and continue to fight for the program, there is NO WRESTLING on the mountain for you to (either like or) dislike.

Maybe it's my Marine Corps background, or my Italian stubborness, or the "never-give-up-ness" (I learned from wrestling), but I believe there is still a chance to save the program.

Signed- Dan P (aka Don Quixote)

[BJWilliams]

I like wrestling as much as anyone (it was reinstated during my undergrad studies) but I think the reason that he feels that way is that this could have been handled in a more private way (i.e. private messages) instead of being aired out for anyone to see over the course of the last 6+ pages.

[jbock13]

Without this thread and some of the people who contribute to it and continue to fight for the program, there is NO WRESTLING on the mountain for you to (either like or) dislike.

Yeah, that's it. All of us who agree with the AD, we all hate wrestling. Even though I said I was sad that any of our sports had to be cut, you know that secretly, in the depths of the inky shadows, I'm happy.

[Aaron Bruce]

I'm a freaking libertarian who borders upon philosophical anarchism. However, this thread makes the team look bad, even though it's just a few people acting the way they are.

I call BS. You are a libertarian and you cannot find sympathy for a group of people trying to stop the Federal government’s medaling into the affairs of a private institution? Something sounds a bit off. Please explain.

You know, one of Haze’s arguments for Title IX is the fact that he thinks the Federal government should mandate a privately donated weight room, specifically given to a private college’s football team from a private citizen, be equally shared by all. You sure you are a libertarian?

[Aaron Bruce]

I come away feeling like the wrestling team is really selfish, and doesn't care at all about the athletic program. They just want theirs.

Stossle had a great story about title IX a couple of years ago. Fla. Boys baseball team went out and busted their hump to raise private funds to help for improvements to their field. Kids and their parents worked their tails off all summer not only raising the money but actually physically working on the field. Guess what, the federal government made them board up the concession stand and take down the lights because it was unfair that the girls softball team didn’t have the same things. The girls choose to sit on their keesters all summer while the boys poured some blood, sweat, and tears. Pray tell, where on earth does the federal government derive the power to tell these boys that they are not allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor?

Of course we are being a bit selfish right now. NOBODY is standing up to this nonsense. Unfortunately, the situation at hand has forced us to be “selfish”. You think those parents were being selfish when they about burned the courthouse down (symbolic of course). Sure they were – They had a right to be!

Let me guess, you think we were supposed to lie down and die quietly and then reap great satisfaction when we hear you say, “I like those wrestlers; they were selfless in their sacrifice. They let us strike them dead without saying a word”?

Are you sure you are a Libertarian? Every Libertarian I know would be fighting mad if this happened in their town.

[Aaron Bruce]

it's a waste of resources to fight it.

So, your libertarian strategy is to give up?

[Dan P]

I'm mad, but I'm educated. This isn't new to me. These cuts have been happening forever, and I have a firm grasp on the ins and outs of this law. So I'm not full of rage about it...it just is what it is. We have to be in compliance, and until we totally take over the courts (electing Republicans hasn't helped), it's a waste of resources to fight it.

Duke ----
#1)we ARE in compliance (even BEFORE cutting the wrestling team).
#2) A waste of resources to fight it -- so, your solution is to give up and go peacefully into that good night? (shout out to the poet, Dylan Thomas) Sorry, that's not how wrestlers are wired.

[BJWilliams]

As I said before, this could have been dealt with in private messages and not gone on and on for 7 pages and dragged the Chancellor and various sundry others from the board community (and some who just signed on to get in on this)...

[jbock13]

I'm a freaking libertarian who borders upon philosophical anarchism. However, this thread makes the team look bad, even though it's just a few people acting the way they are.

I call BS. You are a libertarian and you cannot find sympathy for a group of people trying to stop the Federal government’s medaling into the affairs of a private institution? Something sounds a bit off. Please explain.

You know, one of Haze’s arguments for Title IX is the fact that he thinks the Federal government should mandate a privately donated weight room, specifically given to a private college’s football team from a private citizen, be equally shared by all. You sure you are a libertarian?

Aaron, you sound like a nice man, but this is bordering on the absurd. WE AGREE WITH YOU THAT TITLE 9 SHOULD BE GOTTEN RID OF. However, you keep convienently bouncing back and forth between wrestling and government policy, accusing those who are in favor of the AD's decision as being in favor of Title XI.

That is a false dilemma, and thus, a logical fallacy of yours.

For the record, I snapped at you because I too am a libertarian.

[jbock13]

A waste of resources to fight it -- so, your solution is to give up and go peacefully into that good night? (shout out to the poet, Dylan Thomas) Sorry, that's not how wrestlers are wired.

Then quit (you know what)-ing about it on a message board and go sue the Fed.

[Aaron Bruce]

WE AGREE WITH YOU THAT TITLE 9 SHOULD BE GOTTEN RID OF.

Thanks, I am glad to hear you are on our side. I think you just lost a friend in Haize though…

However, you keep convienently bouncing back and forth between wrestling and government policy, accusing those who are in favor of the AD's decision as being in favor of Title IX.

I think you might be confusing me with others on this board. I have tried my best to not necessarily attack anyone in the Liberty Administration. My mission on this forum has been to attempt to educate the alumni on the destructive effects of Title IX. I think you would be surprised at how few people know what is happening. For example, there is someone here that has repeatedly stated that proportionality is all that title IX cares about. That is far from being correct. There are crazy stories of what has happened to men in the name of title IX outside of the elimination of teams.

I suspect that wrestling is dead forever. My hope though, is that you guys might remember my posts over the years as you continue to lose men’s opportunities. I pray that the soccer, tennis, golf men (or the football walk-ons that get cut only because they are men) will stand up and continue my fight once I have gone on. Hopefully, the alumni will eventually begin to think it is time to stand up and fight.

You guys will probably tell the soccer guy he is simply a selfish whiner like you have me…

[Aaron Bruce]

... it's not that my solution is to give up, it's to live to fight another day.

Very well, I can accept your position. Please promise me your “other day” will be when they come after men’s track. I think it is freaking cool we actually can have NCAA Champions sitting in the classrooms at Liberty. The wrestlers won’t be around to help so the tracksters will need someone to stand up. Don’t think the NCAA titles will protect them, UCLA dropped their men’s swim team.

The following is a link to a page discussing the constitutionality of quotas. I spent VERY little time searching and I am sure there are plenty of better resources. But, I think you will find that we might not be that far away from actually challenging this.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... action.htm

Here's a quote from the page:
In 2003, the Court decided two cases challenging affirmative action policies at the University of Michigan--one involving the law school (Grutter v Bollinger) and one involving the undergraduate college (Gratz v Bollinger). The result was a split for Michigan, with the Law School's more individualized consideration of race upheld on a 5 to 4 vote, and the undergraduate school's more blatant heavy weighting of race as a plus factor struck down, 6 to 3. Justice O'Connor's opinion for the Court in Grutter adopted much of Justice Powell's reasoning in Bakke. O'Connor found the Law School's asserted interest in creating a diverse student body to be a compelling justification for its consideration of race, and found the school admission policy appropriately considered race along with many other characteristics or experiences that could contribute to diversity. O'Connor cautioned, however, that affirmative action programs should have some termination point, and she suggested that in another twenty-five years a similarly structured program would be unlikely to stand.

[BJWilliams]

Please...PLEASE...I beg you guys...take this to PMs...

[flamehunter]

BJ, with all due respect, you don't have to read it.

[roccofan]

Flame Fans - late to this thread? Don't worry about reading all 7 pages - just read page 1 seven times, it'll actually probably make more sense that way.

[L Fan]

I'm perplexed why do we have so many non-wrestling fans on this page defending the AD? Unless you have something helpful to add to the discussion of saving wrestling you should move on. The rest of us have heard all your nay saying over and over again. I think there are a few people on the page that would like to see something positive manifest from this train wreck. The lack of creative thinking and vision is what brought us to this point. Now that there are a few that want to table possible remedies to the demise of the wrestling program, the only support they get is disingenuous comments from the non-wrestling fans?

[SuperJon]

Please...PLEASE...I beg you guys...take this to PMs...

This message board is for exactly this discussion. I may think the wrestling guys are out of touch with reality but it's still their right to have a discussion on a discussion forum. Just because they're not singing Kumbaya around a campfire doesn't mean it has to be in PMs. Chill out.

[jbock13]

I'm perplexed why do we have so many non-wrestling fans on this page defending the AD? Unless you have something helpful to add to the discussion of saving wrestling you should move on. The rest of us have heard all your nay saying over and over again. I think there are a few people on the page that would like to see something positive manifest from this train wreck. The lack of creative thinking and vision is what brought us to this point. Now that there are a few that want to table possible remedies to the demise of the wrestling program, the only support they get is disingenuous comments from the non-wrestling fans?

Uh oh! Looks like L fan just banned us from the board!

Although I love how you told those who disgaree with you to basically (shut up) and that nobody in their right might could ever agree with our evil AD...

Secondly, how do you automatically assume I'm not a wrestling fan? Anybody who disagrees with you isn't a wrestling fan? That's news to me.

[Dan P]

Please...PLEASE...I beg you guys...take this to PMs...

I know there are some who would like this situation to die down, but until the program is restored, I don't think it will. In fact, everyday I get more and more emails, phone calls, etc from parents, supporters, and wrestlers offering encouragement.
When the news first broke 2 weeks ago, there was a low level, quiet attempt to get the AD to reconsider. Didn't work. But now ...

I've heard from a very good authority that the final decision about keeping the program has not been made yet. To the supporters of the program - be encouraged & continue to have faith and pray!

[Aaron Bruce]

WE AGREE WITH YOU THAT TITLE 9 SHOULD BE GOTTEN RID OF.

Haize? You still out there?

[BJWilliams]

I am saying this with candor and as much Christian love as I have (after some important events from a couple days ago happening in my life) but once the "final decision" is made I do hope that all parties involved accept it and dont try to drag anyone's name through the mud. If the wrestling program remains as a club sport, that doesnt make Mr barber, Chancellor Falwell or anyone who is at the center of this decision "evil", "out of touch", "greedy" (or in it for the money as I think has been said). Each and every day people in Liberty administration have to make a whole busload of decision, many of which we either dont see or dont hear about. Some of them will upset people (like the decision to move wrestling to club sport status. I could not nor would not want to have the job that Mr Barber or Jerry Jr have to do each and every day because to be completely honest, I dont think I could handle a level of responsibility that high. Also I am somewhat upset that many of the same people who were applauding the return of the program now want to villify those in leadership or question their Christian character because they made a decision that they didnt like. Thesse men are still men of God at the end of the day who have families they love and care for and they still are following the call god has for them in their chosen field and just because something they do isnt the way we want it done doesnt make them any less Christian than any of us.

If wrestling is allowed to maintain varsity status through all this wrangling and message board jockeying and meetings and the like, the supporters of wrestling need to step up and contribute just like they said they would when this process started a few years ago. If wrestling is kept and we are in this same position 5 MORE years from now, then the hard looks that have been put on the administration will need to be turned to where they should be, and that is to the people who didnt keep up their end of the deal...not the ones who did.

[Aaron Bruce]

If wrestling is allowed to maintain varsity status through all this wrangling and message board jockeying and meetings and the like, the supporters of wrestling need to step up and contribute just like they said they would when this process started a few years ago. If wrestling is kept and we are in this same position 5 MORE years from now, then the hard looks that have been put on the administration will need to be turned to where they should be, and that is to the people who didnt keep up their end of the deal...not the ones who did.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already but out of the 19 sports sponsored at Liberty, the wrestling team had the 5th most donations specifically earmarked for its sport. Although we certainly had goals to keep increasing, this is not a bad statistic seeing that the alumni were a bit “gun shy” about giving to a program that the AD now says he knew he was prob. going to drop for the last 5 years.

You know, wrestling was very instrumental in the early stages of Liberty’s athletic program. I know that being from the class of ’09, you probably never knew. The wrestling program, started by coach Bonhime, has had arguably the most success of any program thru the history of the school from the early days of NCCAA all the way to when we were dropped in ’94. Preseason ’93, we were ranked in the top-25 in the nation. Yes, that included schools like Iowa and Oklahoma. I am sure the Tolsma supporters will quickly put me to shame with his accomplishments – rightfully so, he has done a remarkably great job with that program. As someone who has competed on the level of some of our track stars, I truly understand what they have accomplished.

Since the wrestling program has such a rich history and tradition, why do you place so much heat on us alumni to raise 100% of our budget? Are you demanding the same of the other sports?

[jbock13]

BJ, you're not allowed the question the wrestling supporters. If you disagree with them, you just hate wrestling and support men becoming gay.

[Aaron Bruce]

BJ, you're not allowed the question the wrestling supporters. If you disagree with them, you just hate wrestling and support men becoming gay.

Ouch! Just when I thought we were coming closer together you post this trash.