[Purple Haize]

LFAN - You are coming across as quite the misogynistic neanderthal. It is the line of thinking you are going down that brought about Title IX to begin with! You do realize that 'back in the day" a PE major was a Physical Education and Dance degree dont you? LOTS of athletes use 'dance' to better their athletic performance, think AEROBICS and YOGA. However those are physical activities not SPORT. (It could even be argued they are "PLAY" but I won't make you do a paper on that debate) Plenty of women want to participate sports. Evidence those wanting to participate in Equestrian. Or the explosiong of bowling, yes BOWLING, as a sport. Women's Volleyball, Basketball, Soccer and LAX have never been more popular. And you want to make THEATER a SPORT?!?! I mean Art CAN be physical, such as performance art ie Cirque Du Soleil (which Imight add I saw in C'ville and was amazing,they will be in Roanoke over the 5th of May) but it is NOT sport.

DAN P - Kudos to you for taking your concerns and addressing them head long. I think your observations are spot on in just about every regard. I also think you got to a crux of the problem that many, including myself, have overlooked. The issue now comes down to this: Do we eliminate one program, keeping our competitive advantage in the other sports OR Do we reduce competitve advantage in all sports to save one. There are pros and cons to this. IMO, in that debate your biggest strike is that there is no BSC affiliation. Say what you will, THAT is a huge factor in the decision.

[Sly Fox]

The Chancellor has made it clear in this thread about his displeasure with Title IX and would love to be at the point of the spear to take it down. That has never been in question. I remember his dad openly grumbling about Title IX a quarter century ago in Chapel.

Dan P - I fall into agreement with the others on here who applaud the approach you are taking to save the program. I am not sure if lessening the resources of nearly every other program is the best path to follow. But I agree that it essentially is a viable option. essentially it is agreed that over 40 male athletes are going to lose the opportunity to compete for LU at the Division I level. The question then becomes do we sacrifice one sport so that the remainder of athletes in other male sports have a better opportunity to succeed or do we save one sport while having a negative impact on competitiveness across the board? Frankly that is a tough question where neither option is appealing.

While we are on the subject, is there a time period that we have to wait before we can poll the student body once again about what sports they would want? I get the impression that the female students who had little to no interest in sports thought something with horses would be pretty to watch. Perhaps with a little education in advance of the vote they might realize that equestrian is not economically viable and a more cost effective option (i.e. Crew) might allow some of them to try and compete in a sport where frankly novices can make the team.

[Dan P]

Purple Haz- If you all think the Big South Conf is the goal for LU, then you are thinking wayyyyy too small. It appears LU is interested in getting into the ACC (or a similar level conference) in about 4-5 years.

Now .... which of our sports can currently compete in the ACC???? Maryland is the 2x ACC champs in wrestling (2010 and 2011). How would the football or basketball teams do vs the ACC champs?

(November 6, 2010)
Liberty 21, Maryland 17
125- Pat Strizki (MD) dec. Jonathan Childress, 4-1 (3-0)
133- Joe Pantaleo (LIB) dec. Joey Boone, 7-5 SV (3-3)
141- Seth Hicks (LIB) dec. Jon Kohler, 14-7 (3-6)
149- Scott Clymer (LIB) dec. Justin Cash, 6-2 (3-9)
157- Kyle John (MD) dec. Julian Colon, 11-4 (6-9)
165- Josh Asper (MD) fall over Eli Sanchez, 2:32 (12-9)
174- Mike Letts (MD) tech. fall over Royal Brettager II, 16-1 [2:33] (17-9)
184- Aaron Kelley (LIB) dec. Alex Pagnotta, 7-3 (17-12)
197- Aaron Thompson (LIB) dec. Christian Boley, 6-2 (17-15)
HWT- Josh Pelletier (LIB) inj. default Spencer Myers (17-21)

Finally --- the very small (surgical) cuts I recommened for the remaining men's programs still keeps them within the range of the national average for their sport. The only men's team taking a huge hit would be the wrestling team. But even then -- I don't think it will harm wrestling's competitiveness. We know how to improvise, adapt, and overcome. (see above box score)

Sly Fox- I'm not 100% sure of a waiting period between surveys, but I do not believe there is. I will add this --- NCSt. (where the AD is the wonderful Debbie Yow, a Lib U grad!) added competitive cheer instead of cutting any of the male opportunities. There is a huge need for college program with competitive cheer (not the cheerleaders on the sidelines during the game) --- it would add 50 female opportunities at LU.

[Sly Fox]

Competitive cheer has been struck down as a counter for female athletic opportunities. I can assure you that LU would have been all over that option if it were available. Our cheerleaders already compete nationally. But alas ...

I really think the new survey could have an impact on our situation. LAX, Swimming & Field Hockey were obvious options. As much as I would love to see us step up with womens hockey, I recognize the costs would be significant. Crew makes sense on a number of levels. You don't have to go to many regattas and the costs are minimal.

As for dropping a 2-3 opportunities for walk-ons in other sports, we have seen the impact that has happened at other schools. And at LU where we attract walk-ons that would never show up at other mid-majors because of what we represent, the impact would be felt. We essentially would be taking away our margin for error. But I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. It is just something to be considered.

[Purple Haize]

DAN - You are new so I will forgive your lack of knowledge concerning my feelings towards the BSC. Let's just say we agree that the BSC is not the destination. As to what it is, we have had some spirited debate!!
I see your point about "competing with ACC schools", but it is not really an Apple to Apple comparison. IMO, there is more athletic parity among "Olympic" sports then "Revenue" sports which I why I am not certain you can directly compare the two.

[Aaron Bruce]

AARON - If the women's coach a Duke had as many national championships, final four appearances, winning % etc, you are darn RIGHT they would and should get paid on the same level. Case in point: UT and UCONN.

So you don’t think they should be market driven? I guess you might have a problem with the free market. The market reacts to the fact that winning a men’s NCAA championship brings $X to the university. Winning the women’s NCAA championship brings A WHOLE LOT LESS than $X! If you are a socialist, you would have a problem with the free market paying the coaches a % of his/her income to the university. Funny thing is that when we started this discussion, you were proud to justify the budgets of the revenue sports. Now, you apparently don’t think that revenue should determine a budget.

[Purple Haize]

AAron - I have apparently not communicated. I don't see the NCAA AS a free market. Therefore when you say "market forces" we are talking about two different creatures. I have stated, or at least tried to, that it is more of a hybrid. When it comes to paying coaches, you have a perfect example. Pat Summitt brings is a TON of money for the University. At the times so did Phil Fulmer and football. However, since Pat had the rings, she was paid more even though, on the whole football probably brought in more $$'s. When they brought in Buzz and Bruce, they could not/would not pay them more then they paid Pat Summit. This is because Pat has proven herself a winner at UT, they have not.
It will be a lot easier if you understand that this is a hybrid. Are decisions made based on Money? Absolutely. Are decisions based on equity, that go contrary to budget? Absolutely. You are asking for absolutes in an non absolute environment.

[Aaron Bruce]

Pat Summitt brings is a TON of money for the University.

You sir, are ignorant on your facts. UCON Women just won 3 NCAA Titles. Guess what their 2010 fiscal report shows? Over $700,000 IN THE HOLE. Pat Summit ‘s program? -$714,000 to be precise. So, no, Pat Summit should not receive as much money as a men’s coach who wins NCAA Championships. Period! She should be paid like other programs that loose $700,000/year but won championships like, lets say, Iowa’s wrestling coach or how about UCLA’s Swimming and diving who won a pile of NCAA Championships…whoops…they dropped that program already.

[Aaron Bruce]

Since I brought up Iowa, let me throw some figures out…then tell me how oppressed women’s coaches are. In 2010, Iowa women’s basketball LOST an astounding $1.75 million MORE than the wrestling team did. During that year, the wrestling team WON an NCAA title but the women’s basketball team was a miserable 1-1 in the NCAA tournament – the women’s head coach also got an $80,000 bonus for making the tournament. The women’s basketball coach’s salary is substantially more than DOUBLE the wrestling coach. Nice try Haize, I ain’t buying the concept that these women are still getting screwed.

I have another great story about the University of Minnesota’s over bloated women’s salaries if you want. Let’s just say, I would LOVE to be a women’s volleyball coach in Minnesota!
Of the 53 women’s basketball programs at the 6 largest conferences, the AVERAGE operating deficit was $2.07 million for a combined $110 Million net loss. Yet, these coaches average $500,000/yr in salary?

[Purple Haize]

Aaron -In the words of my favorite State Farm Commercial "you make my head numb"
BUT in an effort to make it as simple to understand as possible
1. I never said that women's coaches were being screwed. However, it IS interesting that YOU used the word "still". That would mean then at one point they WERE getting screwed on salaries.
2. The NCAA is not a free market. Therefore, your continued lambasting of supposed salary inequalities in invalid, since you base your premise on the NCAA being a pure free market.
3. In regards to coaching salaries, you again miss the point. Primarily, I was speaking of interscholastic as opposed to intercollegiate athletics. I brought up Pat Summitt and Geno as an example of women's coaches who out earn their counterparts on the men's side. I will admit that since UT hired a new coach and Calhoun won another championship, I do not know their new salaries or how they shake out. I would suspect that Pat is still the highest paid basketball coach, if not coach on campus. Which brings me to:
4. You continue compare sports that have no connection. It is easy to compare baseball and softball, Men's and Women's basketball and soccer. There is no female equivelant to wrestling, so trying to compare their salaries makes no sense. The closest you could come would be to compare comparable "Olympic" sports with similar roster size and season.
(and BTW, UCONN did not "JUST WIN" a national title. It was actually Texas A and M)

[Aaron Bruce]

Of the 53 women’s basketball programs at the 6 largest conferences, the AVERAGE operating deficit was $2.07 million for a combined $110 Million net loss. Yet, these coaches average $500,000/yr in salary?

HOLY CRAP; Was I wrong! You guys should Google this stuff; this is crazy. Pat Summitt, you know, the woman who lost her university $715,000 last year…she is making a little over$2 million dollars/year! I knew it was bad but I had been out of the loop for a while and had no idea what has begun to happen. I thought the women might make 25-50% more than the Olympic guys-wow. Quite a “hybrid” philosophy going on in college athletics these days Haize, don’t you think?

Over and out…I will pray for Jesse and company and for the state of our nation as it pertains to the systematic destruction of the male youth. See you guys on the “other side”.

[Purple Haize]

I actually thought Pat was bringing in more than that.
I would actually hope you would pray FOR the youth as opposed to just one gender. I guess it is that whole Jesus Loves The Little Children thinkg I have stuck in my head.

[Purple Haize]

Just b/c I couldnt resist---

Virginia's new women's basketball coach Joanne Boyle stands next to Virginia athletic director Craig Littlepage on Monday, April 11, 2011, in Charlottesville, Va. Boyle agreed to a five-year contract that will pay her $700,000 a season. She also gets a $125,000 signing bonus and another $125,000 if she stays all five years.

[Aaron Bruce]

Just b/c I couldnt resist---

Virginia's new women's basketball coach Joanne Boyle stands next to Virginia athletic director Craig Littlepage on Monday, April 11, 2011, in Charlottesville, Va. Boyle agreed to a five-year contract that will pay her $700,000 a season. She also gets a $125,000 signing bonus and another $125,000 if she stays all five years.

As her predecessor lost the university $3 million dollars the year before! Why couldn’t you resist? Do you enjoy reporting these absurd social travesties? Whatever your reason, thanks for bringing this information to the fellow alumni.

Most athletic fans don’t understand the devastation that is taking place on the college campuses in the name of “political correctness”. I had given up trying to spread the word on this forum but have been told not to quit just yet. There are apparently people lurking on this board who are just now beginning to learn of this crazy attack on America’s men.

Haize, if you want, please report women’s volleyball coach’s salaries compared to the Olympic men. Oh yea, you wanted to compare similar sports? How many scholarships do women’s basketball receive compared to the basketball men?

Just so no one misunderstands, I am in full support of women’s athletics. I think there are great leadership opportunities in these programs. But, if we want to be “fair” to ALL the student athletes, we simply can not include the 2 revenue producers (men’s football and basketball) in the equation. It makes sense that the women’s volleyball coach expects to be paid as much as the men’s wrestling coach-neither programs exist to bring revenue. Now, for a women’s coach to lose $3 million of the athletic department’s money and expect to be paid as much as the guy who MAKES $3 million is simply silly.

[Purple Haize]

Did you factor in how much money Debbie Ryan raised on behalf of the University? Especially the medical center? Debbie Ryan has done MUCH for the University, Charlottesville and cancer survivors across America.
As for scholarships on the basketball side, they should be equal and would be suprised if that has changed. I do not know how many BSC fully fund their athletic scholarships, but they are alloted the same number.
Also, I would love to see you cite the source you are getting your financials from. I know that the majority of athletic departmens lose money, but would just be interested in seeing where you pull your numbers from.

[olldflame]

Women's basketball is allowed 14 scholarships compared to 13 for men. It's been that way for several years. It is (I guess) a token attempt to address gender imbalance, but primarily benefits WBB because of their high rate of serious injuries, especially ACLs.

[Purple Haize]

Women's basketball is allowed 14 scholarships compared to 13 for men. It's been that way for several years. It is (I guess) a token attempt to address gender imbalance, but primarily benefits WBB because of their high rate of serious injuries, especially ACLs.

TY for the correction. Now that I see it I do seem to remember some discussion about this a few years back. IMO, it is not a bad idea since there is a much higher ratio of ACL injuries in the female athlete population. Which is why they should marry at 18 and stay barefoot and pregnant frying me up some twinkies!

[Aaron Bruce]

As for scholarships on the basketball side, they should be equal and would be suprised if that has changed.

Glad we are in agreement on that, too bad the NCAA doesn't-13 for men, 15 for women.

Also, I would love to see you cite the source you are getting your financials from. I know that the majority of athletic departmens lose money, but would just be interested in seeing where you pull your numbers from.

Easy and quick google. All budgets for state schools are public information. Every state posts their reports online.

[Purple Haize]

Well heck that is 2 more men's scholarships we have available for another sport!!
You are sourcing "GOOGLE"? Do the stats you cite bring in all types of revenue streams? THis is why when you quote 'statistics' it is a good idea to source them. Not saying I doubt you but I would be personally interested in seeing what is and is not reported

[NG33]

Honestly, why is this still being discussed? Both sides are unlikely to change perspectives any time soon.

[Aaron Bruce]

You are sourcing "GOOGLE"?

Google actually is a search engine used to find sources, not the sources themselves. I would be more than glad to begin supplying the various documents that show where funds are being used at our public institutions across the country. Got to run now, I’ll be back.

[Purple Haize]

Honestly, why is this still being discussed? Both sides are unlikely to change perspectives any time soon.

its either this or major league baseball

[BJWilliams]

Well there is the spring football game on Saturday too you know...

[Purple Haize]

Well there is the spring football game on Saturday too you know...

Yeah but without ROCCGROUGH it isn't as fun

[logic]

Wrong about the scholarships...women have more in every other sport to balance out the 85 in football. Have to make up those 85 somewhere. Track for example - 12.6 for men, 18 for women. Soccer - 14 for women, 9.9 for men, etc