[Purple Haize]

Despite what has been said on this board, these various men’s programs ARE ministries. There are piles of Christian men out in the “Field” that have been products of these programs. God knows (and I in no way am using this phrase in a blasphemous manner) our society desperately needs these male role models.

So what about the desperate need for FEMALE role models?
As for "death by 1000 cuts" you are assuming that 'death' is the final outcome of the Athletic Department. I'm not about to go there. Plus, if you are dying by cuts, there is the chance that you can be saved before that final fatal cut. I mean, at least it is a better chance then getting your head cut off!

[jbock13]

"What I meant was at the colliegate level it's all about winning, not ministry."

If you all think the Big South Conf is the goal for LU, then you are thinking wayyyyy too small. It appears LU is interested in getting into the ACC (or a similar level conference) in about 4-5 years.

Now .... which of our sports can currently compete in the ACC???? Maryland is the 2x ACC champs in wrestling (2010 and 2011). How would the football or basketball teams do vs the ACC champs?

(November 6, 2010)
Liberty 21, Maryland 17
125- Pat Strizki (MD) dec. Jonathan Childress, 4-1 (3-0)
133- Joe Pantaleo (LIB) dec. Joey Boone, 7-5 SV (3-3)
141- Seth Hicks (LIB) dec. Jon Kohler, 14-7 (3-6)
149- Scott Clymer (LIB) dec. Justin Cash, 6-2 (3-9)
157- Kyle John (MD) dec. Julian Colon, 11-4 (6-9)
165- Josh Asper (MD) fall over Eli Sanchez, 2:32 (12-9)
174- Mike Letts (MD) tech. fall over Royal Brettager II, 16-1 [2:33] (17-9)
184- Aaron Kelley (LIB) dec. Alex Pagnotta, 7-3 (17-12)
197- Aaron Thompson (LIB) dec. Christian Boley, 6-2 (17-15)
HWT- Josh Pelletier (LIB) inj. default Spencer Myers (17-21)

Since only wrestling has brought you on here, ill forgive your ignorance just this once.

Find me one person who is happy as heck that we are in the Big South. I'm not him.

[Aaron Bruce]

Despite what has been said on this board, these various men’s programs ARE ministries. There are piles of Christian men out in the “Field” that have been products of these programs. God knows (and I in no way am using this phrase in a blasphemous manner) our society desperately needs these male role models.

So what about the desperate need for FEMALE role models?

They are needed too! THAT is one of my main points. Satisfying Title IX by dropping an Olympic sport and then using the cost savings to add an extra football coach is not the intent of the law. Do you seriously think that Liberty is discriminating against the women in the school? Really? Someone mentioned crew. You would not believe the stories from the other universities about crew. Signs in Sororities and female dorms read, “come join crew, no experience necessary, scholarships available.” Never even participated in the sport and they are receiving scholarships. Even still, the coaches can’t keep a full roster.

This roster management is a great idea. An easy fix to proportionality would be to ask the women’s coaches to keep all their walkons…oh wait, there aren’t any to speak of. I wonder why men FAR outnumber the women when it comes to participating in a sport without any scholarship? I wonder why men FAR outnumber women in participation of club sports and intramurals? What are the 2 most recognizable women’s sports? Volleyball and Softball? Guess what? The men in colleges across the nation outnumber the women in intramural volleyball and softball 2-1! (shooting from the hip, I am not exactly sure of the precise number but we could easily find it).

Come on people, go look at your local YMCA. Adults wanting to get exercise- what do they do? In overwhelming majority, men play basketball/handball/racquetball/squash and women do “body pump”. There is NOTHING wrong with this- God made us this way. Seriously, check out the play grounds across America, how many women play pick-up games of basketball? How about your local country club? The husbands are willing to do whatever it takes to improve their handicap as the wives laugh at their “stupid competitive nature” while sipping on their pina coladas with their friends. You can call me names if you want (misogynist) but I am simply stating observed facts. If the women want to play a pick up game of hoops, great; I certainly wouldn’t be offended- They just don’t and I don’t really see the need to try to convince them that they should want to.

Why is the liberal left trying so hard to challenge the gender norms our society has deemed “typical”?

[jbock13]

Despite what has been said on this board, these various men’s programs ARE ministries. There are piles of Christian men out in the “Field” that have been products of these programs. God knows (and I in no way am using this phrase in a blasphemous manner) our society desperately needs these male role models.

So what about the desperate need for FEMALE role models?

They are needed too! THAT is one of my main points. Satisfying Title IX by dropping an Olympic sport and then using the cost savings to add an extra football coach is not the intent of the law. Do you seriously think that Liberty is discriminating against the women in the school? Really? Someone mentioned crew. You would not believe the stories from the other universities about crew. Signs in Sororities and female dorms read, “come join crew, no experience necessary, scholarships available.” Never even participated in the sport and they are receiving scholarships. Even still, the coaches can’t keep a full roster.

This roster management is a great idea. An easy fix to proportionality would be to ask the women’s coaches to keep all their walkons…oh wait, there aren’t any to speak of. I wonder why men FAR outnumber the women when it comes to participating in a sport without any scholarship? I wonder why men FAR outnumber women in participation of club sports and intramurals? What are the 2 most recognizable women’s sports? Volleyball and Softball? Guess what? The men in colleges across the nation outnumber the women in intramural volleyball and softball 2-1! (shooting from the hip, I am not exactly sure of the precise number but we could easily find it).

Come on people, go look at your local YMCA. Adults wanting to get exercise- what do they do? In overwhelming majority, men play basketball/handball/racquetball/squash and women do “body pump”. There is NOTHING wrong with this- God made us this way. Seriously, check out the play grounds across America, how many women play pick-up games of basketball? How about your local country club? The husbands are willing to do whatever it takes to improve their handicap as the wives laugh at their “stupid competitive nature” while sipping on their pina coladas with their friends. You can call me names if you want (misogynist) but I am simply stating observed facts. If the women want to play a pick up game of hoops, great; I certainly wouldn’t be offended- They just don’t and I don’t really see the need to try to convince them that they should want to.

Why is the liberal left trying so hard to challenge the gender norms our society has deemed “typical”?

I actually really loved what you just said here. Just wanted to say I agreed with something.

[Aaron Bruce]

Why is the liberal left trying so hard to challenge the gender norms our society has deemed “typical”?

I actually really loved what you just said here. Just wanted to say I agreed with something.

Thanks; I think you would find that the more you dig into Title IX the more you will begin scratching your head. Whatever you do, don’t try to debate with logic as this is yet another “feel good” law that has the federal government trying to manipulate the actions of the American public. The biggest problem is the fact that the offended parties are comparatively so few in number that we don’t have any political muscle. Very few Americans have sons involved in college Olympic sports. When Clinton was president, right before the Lewinski scandal, there was talk of OCR enforcing proportionality in the classrooms as well. I was looking forward to that because I felt that we might be able to gather a larger coalition to fight it. Imagine if OCR required Va. Tech to cap its male engineering students in order to artificially make the gender ratio match that of the general student body. I would think that there would be a much larger group of people ready to fight this social engineering. Unfortunately, Lewinski happened and Clinton lost a pile of political capital and therefore decided not to push the issue.

Oh well, I’m about done on this board. I have mostly said my piece. I have tried to bring to light an unfortunate injustice being done to our sons across America. In the end, I’m rather certain you guys are right. This fight is absolutely futile as I suspect that in some regards it is prophetic. This systematic destruction of our culture is only going to get worse.

[Purple Haize]

I'm sure the female athletes of the world are thankful that you say it is "Ok" for them to participate.

The one thing you FINALLY stated that WAS correct, is that this is something that can not be debated from a logical point of view. It actually has to be debated from a LEGAL point of view. And legaleeze can get crazy

[jbock13]

I'm sure the female athletes of the world are thankful that you say it is "Ok" for them to participate.

The one thing you FINALLY stated that WAS correct, is that this is something that can not be debated from a logical point of view. It actually has to be debated from a LEGAL point of view. And legaleeze can get crazy

Haize, I've said this, I think you'd agree, that there's no such thing as common sense in Law.

[Purple Haize]

31kcobj - When the underlying principle is "It is not what you know it is what you can prove" it can give you an appreciation that there is more than one type of "logic". With all apologies to Mr Spock, Data and T'pau.

[L Fan]

And for the record, I think it needs restated that Coach Castro and his staff as well as all of the wrestlers involved (including signees last I heard) are being treated much better than I have seen in a quarter century of covering college sports when a sport is dropped. Coach Castro & his staff are being given a reassignment for next year in order for them to maintain their income while they pursue other opportunities. That is a severance package that most of us who have been through layoffs in the non-academic world find extremely generous. And the wrestlers will continue to have their scholarships honored if they choose to stay at Liberty instead of transferring to continue their wrestling careers. That is nowhere near a position that could be described as "throwing them under a bus".

I fully understand the passion of the wrestling community. It was that passion that led the school to add the sport when 99% of the LU community and the rest of the collegiate sports world was scratching our heads about why we would make such a move.

For the record, I actually enjoy wrestling. As a scrawny high school kid, it was one of my few athletic options. I recently called a wrestling tournament for Fox Sports Net that was carried nationwide. I was disappointed this day had to come as well. Frankly I was surprised we were able to make this happen for as long as we did.

I have a cousin by marriage who wrestled for Iowa and who is now a 2012 Olympic hopeful. It flat out sucks that Christian wrestlers don't have a flagship program anymore. But now is the time to take their Christian testimonies and influence their teammates & opponents wherever they call home.

Respectfully, I would disagree. Although money and severance used as a bandaid are wonderful gestures that I'm sure the coaches appreciate because it sustains there families. I would say what drives most people is their purpose. Imagine the Fed saying LU must close but as part of the severance package we will let you operate the local elementary school at your current salary.
If you were a part of the administration it would be relieving to know your family was taken care of and I am not trying to dismiss that gesture. It was the right thing to do. But the opportunity you lost would be painfulIy felt every time you walked into that elementary school. My point is here are people who moved their families etc and wrestlers who placed faith in an institution and it failed in a debacle. If you don't like the bus analogy use your own I got it from the AD. In short, it isn't pretty no matter how you spin it.

Bad news never gets better with time. The fact that so many knew the status of the Athletic Program and issued no warning order is painful to hear. You may not like to hear it, but it is failed leadership and it's manifestation. It is what it is. Someone got a pay check for the last 5 years and ended up doing what a first year compliance officer could have done. Maybe Purple can find a way to sugar coat that, I can't.

Dan P should be lauded he is the only one trying to capitalize on a failure. The rest of us are either extolling the pain felt by the demise or the Nay sayers who proclaim how accurate their rear sightedness is. I guess it must gratify us somehow.

[Sly Fox]

What would you have proposed the school due for Coach Castro & his staff in light of the decision to shutdown the program? I can't think of anything more they could have offered the student-athletes than continuing their scholarships. Is a year contract beyond the end of the program not a fair severance while helping the coaching staff find new positions?

I can understand many of grievances but this is one area where the university took the high road and it seems to be brushed aside. I can tell you I have been around programs that have closed down at major universities and the schools haven't typically been this generous. I'd be curious to hear what some of the other schools who have recently closed their wrestling programs like Nebraska-Omaha have done for their coaches & athletes.

If you want to be angry at the school for closing down wrestling as an NCAA sport, that is one issue. How they are treating the staff and athletes is another IMHO.

[L Fan]

What would you have proposed the school due for Coach Castro & his staff in light of the decision to shutdown the program? I can't think of anything more they could have offered the student-athletes than continuing their scholarships. Is a year contract beyond the end of the program not a fair severance while helping the coaching staff find new positions?

I can understand many of grievances but this is one area where the university took the high road and it seems to be brushed aside. I can tell you I have been around programs that have closed down at major universities and the schools haven't typically been this generous. I'd be curious to hear what some of the other schools who have recently closed their wrestling programs like Nebraska-Omaha have done for their coaches & athletes.

If you want to be angry at the school for closing down wrestling as an NCAA sport, that is one issue. How they are treating the staff and athletes is another IMHO.

Simple honesty when confronting the problem. I think, had the AD been open with Jesse he could possibly have found a remedy. Instead he chose to kick the can and deal with the situation in a vacuum. That course of action didn't work and resulted in a debacle .

For you it's a compensation issue, I get it. Consider a hand by insurance standards is worth 250k that's fair if you lost it. Almost no one would let you take their hand for 250k. Why is that? Get interesting with it, make it a million, that is MORE than fair right? Maybe you can see my point maybe not. Now what if I said your going to lose your hand in 5 years, I think your motivated to find a way to keep your hand. Imagine it could have been avoided, if someone wasn't careless or a asleep at the wheel. How would you feel then?

Just trying to give you a little insight as to what some people might be feeling right now.

[Purple Haize]

Would i be able to have a new hand like Luke Skywalker got in Empire? I would do it for a million bucks then!!
How in the WORLD can you compare losing a job to losing a limb. I have it on good authority that the coaches will find jobs and the students will get their diplomas. Last I checked, despite the miraculous work of orthopedist researchers, no one is getting a limb back.

[jbock13]

Simple honesty when confronting the problem. I think, had the AD been open with Jesse he could possibly have found a remedy. Instead he chose to kick the can and deal with the situation in a vacuum. That course of action didn't work and resulted in a debacle .

Translation: "I'm just mad because he cut MY sport. Not somebody else's."

[L Fan]

Simple honesty when confronting the problem. I think, had the AD been open with Jesse he could possibly have found a remedy. Instead he chose to kick the can and deal with the situation in a vacuum. That course of action didn't work and resulted in a debacle .

Translation: "I'm just mad because he cut MY sport. Not somebody else's."

What is noteworthy is that whenever I make mention of the AD's debacle and talk about his responsibility. I get an attack or deflective responses from the long timers and none are critical of the AD's leadership. Why is that?

[jbock13]

Simple honesty when confronting the problem. I think, had the AD been open with Jesse he could possibly have found a remedy. Instead he chose to kick the can and deal with the situation in a vacuum. That course of action didn't work and resulted in a debacle .

Translation: "I'm just mad because he cut MY sport. Not somebody else's."

What is noteworthy is that whenever I make mention of the AD's debacle and talk about his responsibility. I get an attack or deflective responses from the long timers and none are critical of the AD's leadership. Why is that?

First of all, it's not an attack. Second, he's put us on a path to success, it will take a little time.

Third, no offense, the only reason you don't like him is it's because he cut YOUR sport.

Also, everything BYD has said in this entire thread is correct.

Please don't misunderstand L fan, it's nothing personal. But name one thing non-wrestling that you disagree with JB on?

[olldflame]

Simple honesty when confronting the problem. I think, had the AD been open with Jesse he could possibly have found a remedy. Instead he chose to kick the can and deal with the situation in a vacuum. That course of action didn't work and resulted in a debacle .

Translation: "I'm just mad because he cut MY sport. Not somebody else's."

What is noteworthy is that whenever I make mention of the AD's debacle and talk about his responsibility. I get an attack or deflective responses from the long timers and none are critical of the AD's leadership. Why is that?

Possibly because for the most part we are relatively objective, and don't see a debacle or a lack of leadership. You clearly are not, and I am not saying you should be, but let's be honest about it, it wouldn't make any difference who the AD was, or how the situation was "handled"; if the ultimate decision was to shut down the wrestling program, you would be arguing that they were wrong. I'm not sure what you would have expected the AD to do in terms of being "open" with Jesse. I'm quite sure he knew that we had Title IX issues, and he had to be aware that something like this was a possibility. If JB had gone to him a year ago and told him that unless something changed they would probably have to shut down the program, how would that have changed anything? It would only have made his job that much harder.

[Purple Haize]

TP>KG>JB

[olldflame]

TP>KG>JB

Not sure where that came from Purple but I believe I can solve the puzzle:

Terry (Don) Phillips>Kim Graham>Jeff Barber

Someone apparently feels like we have been downgrading at the AD position?

[Purple Haize]

Close but no cigar. You got 2 of the 3 names correct, but I was putting them in the 'percieved' compotence order of a hypothetical wrestling booster

[L Fan]

Translation: "I'm just mad because he cut MY sport. Not somebody else's."

What is noteworthy is that whenever I make mention of the AD's debacle and talk about his responsibility. I get an attack or deflective responses from the long timers and none are critical of the AD's leadership. Why is that?

Possibly because for the most part we are relatively objective, and don't see a debacle or a lack of leadership. You clearly are not, and I am not saying you should be, but let's be honest about it, it wouldn't make any difference who the AD was, or how the situation was "handled"; if the ultimate decision was to shut down the wrestling program, you would be arguing that they were wrong. I'm not sure what you would have expected the AD to do in terms of being "open" with Jesse. I'm quite sure he knew that we had Title IX issues, and he had to be aware that something like this was a possibility. If JB had gone to him a year ago and told him that unless something changed they would probably have to shut down the program, how would that have changed anything? It would only have made his job that much harder.

LOL simply hilarious
It is hard to see that debacle when you are " relatively objective" . Try looking at it absolutely objective. I think you will see what the rest of us see and that is a debacle. The tough thing about leadership is that sometimes you have to take responsibility for failure. It is a relatively easy concept to understand but absolutely one that we avoid at all cost.

I think the term Jesse used when describing how he felt was "blind-sided" that usually implies you didn't see it coming. So who's duty was it to make him aware of the impending train wreck. JB said he knew 5 years ago, let's hold those cards close for what reason? A worst case scenario, like losing the wrestling team.

This is reasoning I love the most "It would only have made his job that much harder" Let's see what that looks like. Hard Job vs No Job, I might be wrong but I think Jesse opts for the "hard job".

"how would that have changed anything?" That we may never know now but the heroics that Dan P and Jerry are attempting could have had a 5 year head start. You guys could have been high 5-ing on the board how great it was that the AD averted a debacle instead of defending it.

[Purple Haize]

LOL simply hilarious
It is hard to see that debacle when you are " relatively objective" . Try looking at it absolutely objective. I think you will see what A FEW OF US FEEL and that is a debacle. The tough thing about leadership is that sometimes you have to take responsibility for failure. It is a relatively easy concept to understand but absolutely one that we avoid at all cost.

I think the term Jesse used when describing how he felt was "blind-sided" that usually implies you didn't see it coming. So who's duty was it to make him aware of the impending train wreck. JB said he knew 5 years ago, let's hold those cards close for what reason? A worst case scenario, like losing the wrestling team.

FIFY
And again with the conspiracy theories

[L Fan]

What is noteworthy is that whenever I make mention of the AD's debacle and talk about his responsibility. I get an attack or deflective responses from the long timers and none are critical of the AD's leadership. Why is that?

Possibly because for the most part we are relatively objective, and don't see a debacle or a lack of leadership. You clearly are not, and I am not saying you should be, but let's be honest about it, it wouldn't make any difference who the AD was, or how the situation was "handled"; if the ultimate decision was to shut down the wrestling program, you would be arguing that they were wrong. I'm not sure what you would have expected the AD to do in terms of being "open" with Jesse. I'm quite sure he knew that we had Title IX issues, and he had to be aware that something like this was a possibility. If JB had gone to him a year ago and told him that unless something changed they would probably have to shut down the program, how would that have changed anything? It would only have made his job that much harder.

LOL simply hilarious
It is hard to see that debacle when you are " relatively objective" . Try looking at it absolutely objective. I think you will see what the rest of us see and that is a debacle. The tough thing about leadership is that sometimes you have to take responsibility for failure. It is a relatively easy concept to understand but absolutely one that we avoid at all cost.

I think the term Jesse used when describing how he felt was "blind-sided" that usually implies you didn't see it coming. So who's duty was it to make him aware of the impending train wreck. JB said he knew 5 years ago, let's hold those cards close for what reason? A worst case scenario, like losing the wrestling team.

This is reasoning I love the most "It would only have made his job that much harder" Let's see what that looks like. Hard Job vs No Job, I might be wrong but I think Jesse opts for the "hard job".

"how would that have changed anything?" That we may never know now but the heroics that Dan P and Jerry are attempting could have had a 5 year head start. You guys could have been high 5-ing on the board how great it was that the AD averted a debacle instead of defending it.

Purple, A conspiracy would require planning but seriously where in my post do you see a conspiracy?

[Purple Haize]

Several times you reference some type of vague conspiracy. But in this post it would be:

JB said he knew 5 years ago, let's hold those cards close for what reason?

[L Fan]

Several times you reference some type of vague conspiracy. But in this post it would be:

JB said he knew 5 years ago, let's hold those cards close for what reason?

Sorry I'm not giving him that much credit, it's the pure stupidity I'm trying to be vague about. Does that help?

[PAmedic]

just a reminder we need to be careful to avoid personal attacks here guys, thx