[Aaron Bruce]

@ Purple Haize
Have you seen our schedule? Who paid us six figures? Note dame? It’s going to take a lot of those “6 figures” to pay for the 10,000 seat arena. What is the monthly payment to service a $10,000,000 debt?

Let’s “agree to disagree” on this. Although I have firsthand knowledge of the insane waste a basketball budget has, I will respectfully bow out of this debate.

I do want to continue with the real reason wrestling was dropped, Title IX. Would you begin to make a stand if they had announced they were immediately dropping all the sports that will need to go in order to be proportional? Here is what is happening on a national scale. The schools are dropping 1 team every few years. It is a slow bleed. Yes, wrestling has seem to be hit the hardest initially but once the wrestling programs are gone, they’re coming after your sport next. Because of the slow bleed, alumni like you are easily duped into thinking, “It’s just wrestling; those guys are weird anyway.” Will soccer be next? “It’s just soccer, we Americans don’t like that sport anyway.” Golf and Tennis? “Oh well, those are country-club activities anyway. Our school’s student body, after all, has never embraced the turned-up-collar look.”

I guess my question is, “are there any circumstances that you WOULD stand up and fight the injustice?”

[BJWilliams]

Not to mention if coming into Title IX compliance as it relates to proportionality were as easy as saying "hey, lets drop football and basketball...that'll fix it"...a lot more schools would have done that

[BJWilliams]

Not to mention one of the most significant revenue generating sports out there...

[olldflame]

Not to mention one of the most significant revenue generating sports out there...

Our football program costs more than it brings in BJ. That's not the issue. Pretty much any athletic department could put themselves in compliance by dropping football. Not many have done it, and the reason is not revenue. It's because they would take a hit huge in prestige, student enrollment and alumni contributions.

[Purple Haize]

Seems like I made the "Prestige" and "Instrinsic Value" argument a few times already. I'm just sayin

AARON - We can agree to disagree and that is fine. However, you are lumping in a new arena and thinking it will be the sole property of Men's Basketball. I am POSITIVE there will be other activities that will either generate revenue, provide exposure and/or bring prestige to the University. I also have a SNEAKING suspicion that the Women's Basketball Team and Volleyball team will use the facility, however I am waiting for SCOOP to get back to me on that. I am sure you can share what you feel are the "excessess" of basketball, but that can be said about most if not all "Non Olympic" sports. (Remember people that is the new phrase!) When I coached, I had a good chuckle with a friend of mine at UK. He asked what MY recruiting budget was. I told him it depended on a few factors but was between 1,500 and 2500. His was $1 million!!. He said their POSTAGE budget was higher than my recruiting budget!!
One other revenue stream I forgot to mention is the nefarious "Student Fees". Not sure what they are at LU,but know that is one way a lot of schools try to fund athletic departments.

[L Fan]

L FAN - You actually DID sound like Glenn Beck. I hear there is an opening for the 5 PM slot now at FOX!! You make a horrible comparison with Lowe's and Men's wrestling, however, your overall philosophical observations are not too bad. The only exceptions I would take would be these 2:
1. Just like in 1917, 1941 etc, the Military is having to make up in their training for the lack of overall physical education in scholastic curriculum, not soely an absence of wrestling programs.
2. The military and MMA for that matter, focus on combat sports. And yes, you can make a good argument that they all stem from wrestling. Boxing also has a good argument. (My personal favorite being Krav Maga, but that's just b/c some 60 yr old IDF General officer kicked my butt about 20 yrs ago, but I digress)
Where I think your argument is not as firm, is that the difference between today's military and 'yesteryears' is that this is a "professional" army, so members of it are more dedicated and willing to learn these, imo, lost arts. What does this have to do with Title IX, nothing, unless you lump co ed boot camp! Lowe's or Home Depot? Noting unless you are talking Wrassling and need a good 2 x 4!

@AARON - You got that right! I don't think the good Reverend knew his own strength!! I usually go the quick jab to the gut. Winded me the first time, but was prepared for it after that!! Funny OT story: He jabbed me once and I jabbed him back and we both had a laugh. Later I was pulled aside by a "Concerned Citizen" and asked how I could call myself a Christian and strike a Man of God!! I said "He hit me first so that means ONE of us ISN'T a Christian b/c one of us struck a Man of God!!" The look, PRICELESS. I also like your facts and figures and while they are a smidge off, the fact that you put the time to research is a good thing.

Good Grief, Purple you get a D for yesterday's class. Home Depot = Football, Lowes = Bball, True Value =Wrestling Again WalMart = Football Target = Bball, KMart=Wrestling. Okay here's an extra credit, I noticed you quoted Rumsfield, What sport did he play in college?

Second question I noticed you mentioned Boxing, In a boxing match, Why does a referee, separate the boxers when they end up holding onto each other?

Your experience with the IDF, I understand very unfortunate. What's worse now that he is 80 he might still kick your butt.

[Aaron Bruce]

@ Purple Haize
I thought we were going to let the profit/loss of men’s basketball teams go? You had to get the last word in…just like my wife haha. Fine, basketball brings large amounts of revenue to the vast majority of schools-you win. It actually funds all the other sports thru huge Big South profit sharing. Whatever. A link I just clicked on said our basketball budget was $2.6 Mil. Note dame freekin must have given us a boat load to travel to South Bend.

As we have stated multiple times, it is not about the money. We have a snowless ski slope for crying out loud. Are you purposely ignoring my request to tell me when you would be willing to finally make a stand against Title IX?

[jbock13]

I've decided it's no use arguing with some people in this thread.

L fan, thank you for at least showing respect and class towards those who may disagree with you.

As for you others, please, at least spell my name right when you quote me.

[Purple Haize]

LFAN - Who can keep up with your horrible analogys and simili's? Seriously, your point is even more clouded. As for boxing, the clinch because they are too scared to go toe to toe and club the crap out of each other. So if you want to go down THAT road, you could say that wrestling is a sissy combat sport compared to the striking combat sports. Just saying. I have no clue where you get this "All great men were wrestlers" world view. T Boone Pickens made the largest athletic donation in history. Not a wrestler. Lee and Leo Seal just donated 12 mill to Mississippi state. Not wrestlers. Arizona just got a nice 10 million from...you guessed it NOT a wrestler. I am not denying the value of wrestling and that famous people wrestled, but wrestling does not have some type of monopoly of famous participants. As for the IDF General Staffer, if he was alive he probably COULD kick my butt still. However, I DID pin him once (ok I sat on him!) but in Krav Maga, if you hit the ground, you are going to get pummeled. AND I had to buy the beer!

AARON - I am not ignoring, purposefully, your question about When I would fight the 'injustices' of Title IX. The short answer is when it affects me. The long answer is that I have been parties to several instances where there was a fight FOR gender equity. Be it weight room usage, practice times, uniforms, coaches pay etc. So I HAVE been on that side of it. As for the other side, DUKE has a great point. Why are YOU waiting for someone else to do something? Why don't you and the group of wrestlers file suit and have a go at it. Why is it someone ELSE'S responsibility?

BJock - Lighten up!

[jbock13]

BJock - Lighten up!

I'll admit, I laughed.

[Aaron Bruce]

AARON - I am not ignoring, purposefully, your question about When I would fight the 'injustices' of Title IX. The short answer is when it affects me.

Why are you guys blinded to the fact that once Falwell said we are going to become proportionate without adding women’s sports, by necessity football, basketball, and baseball will be the only ones left (substitute track for baseball at Liberty-I assume Tolsma is untouchable) Haize, are you telling me, “this doesn’t affect you?”

If you think OCR isn’t coming after Football/basketball/baseball you are very naïve. The feminists HATE and I mean HATE football. Once there is only men’s football, basketball, and baseball left they will then begin to attack on the salary disparities.

I suppose one of the biggest philosophical differences between us wrestling fans and you other guys is that we see amateur sport as an educational tool. We spend countless hours of volunteer time and energy because we want to help develop the character of the young athlete. We do not see the primary reason for college athletics to be “Revenue Producers” or “Marketing Machines”. Therefore, when we see Norma Cantu or whoever the current Secretary of OCR threaten the education of our nation’s boys, we want to fight. You guys feel that if it is not part of the schools marketing plan, oh well. Believe me when I say this is indeed a, “war against the boys” on all fronts. These feminists despise a strong, healthy, confident, athletic young man. The male athlete stands in direct opposition to what they want for American society. I believe Rush Limbaugh calls it the “wussifacation” of America and I firmly stand behind that observation.

You asked me why I don’t do anything? I guess this is my attempt at helping the cause. I am, albeit unsuccessfully, trying to convince my fellow alumni that there is a concerted effort to dismantle most of what you consider to be strong male role models in our society. During this endeavor, I hope to convince these alums that this battle for the future of our children is exactly why the late Dr. Falwell started this institution. Yes, I believe this is very much a spiritual battle for the hearts and minds of our youth. I wish I had the financial resources to fight in other avenues but I unfortunately do not. I spent my first 11 years out of undergrad as an assistant coach for an Olympic sport and do not have the proverbial, “pot to pee in”. In an amazing stroke of genius, I chose construction management as my second career-any idea how much construction is happening these days? (haha) Oh, yea, my wife is a real estate agent-talk about a double wammy!

Jbock13 sorry for the misspell

[Aaron Bruce]

Funny, I thought out school was about reaching the world with Christ, not making sure we defend strong masculinity against a culture bent on equality.

I would submit they go hand in hand. Yes, obviously Jerry wanted to train Champions for Christ. I firmly believe that this attack on our gender norms is a direct assault on our Christian foundation. Make no mistake, this IS a spiritual battle for your children. They are pushing hard to convince the youth of our culture traditional values are wrong.

BTW, I am a direct product of Liberty's Wrestling Program and it's "Reaching the the world for Christ" Please believe me when I say, this program certainly was performing that mission honorably.

[jbock13]

He was being sarcastic...

[Purple Haize]

AAron - I had to chuckle, but in a good way, when you use the phrase "Reaching the world..." in regards to wrestling. It made me smile!
As to your points, I can't fault most of them. I agree, there IS a radical Feminist movement to "wussify" men's sports. HOWEVER, on the other side of the equation, there are Men who are DETERMINED not to let women succeed in athletics. Yes, even here in the 21st century. I will give you the benefit of the doubt when you rail against "salary equity" as the next step of Equity. Why SHOULD the men's baksetball coach at UT expect to be paid more than Pat Summitt? Why should a HS boys basketball coach be on a 12=month contract but the girls basketball coach only 11-month? Why should the Volleyball team never be allowed to use the weight room right after school, because the football team always uses it at that time? Why does each member of the men's team get their own room at the Hilton on road trips, but the Women's team has to Quad Up at the Days Inn? THESE are the meat and potato issues that Title IX deals with. THOSE are the issues that directly affect me and THOSE are the issues I fight for.
Again, if you are aggrevied, use the court system when all else fails. Trying to rally support on an internet message board is fine, but probably won't bring wrestling back. The way TO bring wrestling back has already been laid out many many times, but it seems to continue to be overlooked. Yes, I know that the goal of Liberty is to reach gender equity w/o adding any more women's sports. However, that does not necessarily mean the elimination of the other "olympic" sports that you mention.

[4everfsu]

Those who want to save wrestling then do what Cal did to save baseball.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=6309075

[BJWilliams]

If there are so many supporters of wrestling out there (especially with deep pockets), that doesnt sound like too far fetched an idea fsu

[jbock13]

If there are so many supporters of wrestling out there (especially with deep pockets), that doesnt sound like too far fetched an idea fsu

It's kind of what I said. Wrestling wouldn't have been cut if it didn't generate one the lowest revenues. It would have been golf, tennis, etc. (you get the idea).

I see many arguing that it shouldn't be about money, and that football gets everything. Know why? It makes $$$ to subsidize non-$$$ sports, like wrestling was. And to say money shouldn't influence anything in sports, well, that's pie-in-the sky wishful thinking.

I don't have anything against wrestling at all. I'm just trying to give a reality check to some.

[Purple Haize]

If there are so many supporters of wrestling out there (especially with deep pockets), that doesnt sound like too far fetched an idea fsu

FIFY

[ALAFlamesFan]

Time to add Women's Gymnastics. It would add 20-30 female athletes,draws big crowds here in Tuscaloosa, and we already have the extra mats

Seriously though, Title IX is stupid and I hate it for you guys.

[olldflame]

The Cal baseball situation doesn't look like it was a Title IX issue. They were just cought up in the CA state budget crunch. They were going to cut women's sports too.

[Dan P]

Folks - ALAFlamesFan, Olldflame, Stevewait, LUFan (Brad), FlamerBob, and the other supporters of the program ....

I met with Jerry Jr., Jeff Barber, and a few others on Thursday morning. I have a follow-up meeting with a very good friend of mine (a Lawyer) late this weekend. I need to confirm with him and his crew as to what I should say on here about the meeting on Thursday and what I should not say. Afterwards, I will make a statement. (rumor has it, someone, NOT I, may have recorded the meeting on Thursday, so any claims as to what was said can be substainated) ---

[PAmedic]

Folks - ALAFlamesFan, Olldflame, Stevewait, LUFan (Brad), FlamerBob, and the other supporters of the program ....

I met with Jerry Jr., Jeff Barber, and a few others on Thursday morning. I have a follow-up meeting with a very good friend of mine (a Lawyer) late this weekend. I need to confirm with him and his crew as to what I should say on here about the meeting on Thursday and what I should not say. Afterwards, I will make a statement. (rumor has it, someone, NOT I, may have recorded the meeting on Thursday, so any claims as to what was said can be substainated) ---

very good. I was waiting to hear back... hope you made some progress.

thanks for your efforts!

[Aaron Bruce]

AAron - I had to chuckle, but in a good way, when you use the phrase "Reaching the world..." in regards to wrestling. It made me smile!

I trust this made you smile because you also believe in this mission and like to hear success stories of times when it is succeeding…Like when Zeb Stewart, a wrestling recruit slated to attend Liberty in the fall, takes his first year out of high school and goes to Mongolia to use his wrestling talents in conjunction with a former NCAA wrestling champion turned missionary. Or, when guys like myself, spend countless hours with a private youth wrestling club that has a very specific mission to, “Use sport to advance the Gospel of Christ and to develop the character of student athletes into “men after God’s own heart”. We have a Facebook page if your interested- Team Hammer Wrestling. “Isn't my message like a fire?” says the LORD. “Is it not like a mighty HAMMER that smashes a rock to pieces?” Jeremiah 23:29

These are the reasons a guy like me gets so passionate about Liberty dropping their program. The Lord truly used this program to save my life and I have personally witnessed MANY other products of this program using their witness developed from this program to reach out to the next generation.

[Aaron Bruce]

Why SHOULD the men's baksetball coach at UT expect to be paid more than Pat Summitt? Why should a HS boys basketball coach be on a 12=month contract but the girls basketball coach only 11-month? Why should the Volleyball team never be allowed to use the weight room right after school, because the football team always uses it at that time? Why does each member of the men's team get their own room at the Hilton on road trips, but the Women's team has to Quad Up at the Days Inn? THESE are the meat and potato issues that Title IX deals with. THOSE are the issues that directly affect me and THOSE are the issues I fight for.

You spent plenty of time explaining to me that men’s basketball and football are flagship programs for schools and possess multitudes of avenues for revenue and other beneficial properties. Now you are saying that the girl’s volleyball team deserves the same luxuries?? Something doesn’t jive. Either athletics are market driven or they are not, which is it?

That being said, you sir, are absolutely incorrect when you say that, “Those are the meat and potatoes of Title IX.” Title IX doesn’t give a rat’s butt about expanding opportunities for women, the only thing these feminists care about is taking away opportunities for men. It has been clearly pointed out, As long as Liberty drops 100 men, OCR is fine. They could very easily put 1 more piece into the Title IX legislation that states that schools cannot satisfy the law by taking away opportunities for men. But, as we all know, these N.O.W. folks are laughing hysterically as they see program after program being discontinued. Come on, seriously, shouldn’t N.O.W. and the Olympic sports guys be holding hands in this endeavor? They should be equally standing with us claiming, “B.S, Title IX is supposed to be expanding opportunity for women, not killing our Olympic programs.”

I personally believe we first saw the beginning of this when Candace Bergman played the part of Murphy Brown. If you remember, Vice President Dan Quail got bashed unmercifully for expressing disappointment over the fact that the show had the main character (a women) adopt a child out of wedlock and without the help of a father to raise the child. Quail was pointing to the fact that this was a concerted effort from the Hollywood establishment to de-emphasize the importance of the male role model. Fast forward 25 years and look what we have. Let’s just say, “it ain’t cool to be a Christian, straight, male.”

[Aaron Bruce]

Yes, I know that the goal of Liberty is to reach gender equity w/o adding any more women's sports. However, that does not necessarily mean the elimination of the other "olympic" sports that you mention.

Please tell; I was a liberal arts major. What new math are they teaching these days that will get Liberty in compliance without adding women nor dropping men?