[jbock13]

what is wrestling? Why should we fund it?

[alum82]

This discussion is going nowhere. It has degraded to the point that our administration's commitment to Christianity is being measured by their view of how to manage Title IX issues, and, if they even considered the cost of adding more and more women's sports as part of the wrestling decision, then all they care about is money? And wrestling is being called "sweaty dudes touching each other so much"? Come on. Wrestling is a very grueling sport. I can't remember becoming so physically exhausted so quickly in high school than I did when I wrestled. And,if LU's administration didn't worry about money, how long would the school exist? Just because LU has a Christian mission doesn't mean it is exempt from paying its bills. There is just too much emotion here to have a rational discussion.

[Hold My Own]

Wow --- to think of the 10’s of thousands of dollars I poured into that school --- just to learn this brutal lesson – “just because they wear sheep clothing, doesn’t mean they aren’t wolves!

He isnt fully understanding that the reason he had to pay 10's of thousands is because Title IX would not allow for a full scholarship.

[PAmedic]

I fully appreciate the emotions attached, esp by those who participated in their younger years or have have sons doing so now, or BOTH.

Venting via this board can be therapeutic, but we need to be careful to respect all parties and avoid personal attacks.

That being said- carry on.

PS: I'm pretty sure SCORCHO was making a joke- but I empathize w/ DAN P and acknowlege he is likely NOT in a joking mood at this point.

[Hold My Own]

Scorch --- as for attacking f-ball --- I'm not ... but tell me --- where has the majority of the LU sports budget gone?? In the past 20 years we've seen nearly 80 NCAA D-I wrestling programs dropped --- yet, f-ball gets bigger and bigger budgets each year.

Exactly! This is a sad fact for a wrestling fan/supporter. At least you see though that this is not a situation that is unique to Liberty and we were not the only people to make this "mistake." If so many other's are making the same type moves as we are does this not seem that it is a logical move for some reason or another? Everyone cant possibly be wrong.....right?


We'd be very naive if anyone on here did not believe that money played no factor whatsoever. I sure hope it did or I would be VERY concerned about how good of stewards we are being. This is really unfortunate for those involved...it really is. Let's not act like either solution would be easy though. Do some quick figures of how much 6 sports would cost the university, budgets, coaching salaries, facilities, etc and believe it or not scholarships is not "pretend" money (like I used to think) it's REAL. I was under the impression all the employees and families who got free education did not cost the school anything, I quickly learned that my belief was far from reality.

[Dan P]

Last post from me (at least on this forum) ...

Holdmyown--- aren't you a little ashamed that LU took the same (easy) route as those other schools? Doesn't LU stand for more than that? Just another college trying to make a buk??
Take a look at the letter (in the other wrestling thread) written by the dad of one of the freshmen. He was way more articulate than me, but essentially, we both expected more from LU.
Shouldn't LU stand for more than just "the bottom (financial) line"?

I was so hopeful LU stood for more ....

[jbock13]

Last post from me (at least on this forum) ...

82alum --- aren't you a little ashamed that LU took the same (easy) route? Take a look at the letter (in the other wrestling thread) written by the dad of one of the freshmen. Shouldn't LU stand for more than just "the bottom (financial) line"?

I was so hopeful LU stood for more ....

Okay in all seriousness, if you were LU, what should we do? (or have done).

[JLFJR]

BJWilliams sent me a message and asked me to post again because this thread had become so contentious. I see that he was right. Dan P, of course money was a consideration here as were many other factors like the number of NCAA sports our board feels is appropriate for LU. It is an administrator's job to take all of the factors into consideration. One of the money issues was not just the number of new women's sports that would have to be added but the nature of those sports. We are not allowed to just pick and choose which women's sports to add. Our wonderful federal government requires that we survey our female students and we have to add the sports that our female students are interested in playing. At Liberty, their first three choices were field hockey, lacrosse and swimming (not necessarily in that order). Those sports have been added. The fourth was equestrian. The cost to add equestrian would be more than the first three combined. We are building a pole barn up on the mountain now where students can board horses for a fee and ride the trails on Liberty Mountain but an equestrian program is a whole different animal (no pun intended). But, we should not let this turn into a fight amongst ourselves. We are all on the same side here. The federal government is the problem and I agree with the posters here that this is a bad law that needs to be overturned. We have already sued to stop Obamacare and I told our lawyers recently that I wanted them to look for a way to challenge Title IX. I have gotten back some preliminary reports, some positive, some negative, but, if we can find a way to change this bad law, we will do it. Of course, a new president and senate in 2012 wouldn't hurt.

Dan P, I don't mind you questioning whether we made the right decision here. We all have the rights to our opinions and this was a decision where reasonable people can disagree but I do not believe we deserve these types of personal attacks. I would be glad to talk to you in person about this even though I have said everything here that I have to say on the subject.

I repeat that I am heartbroken for your son and the other team members as well as Coach Castro. He is a class act in every way and the student wrestlers who have contacted me have exhibited nothing but Christ-like behavior and character despite their bitter disappointment. One wrestler who e mailed me today was obviously distraught about this decision but he expressed his confidence in LU's leadership and asked if he could come by my office to pray for Liberty and his team members tomorrow. Kids like that are all the inspiration I need to sue the federal government if our lawyers can find even a slight crack that might get our nose under the tent.

[Purple Haize]

Wow, what a juicy topic. Let me just say that if Dan P has been around athletics as long as claimed, then he should probably have boned up on Title IX or even the Civil Rights Act (which it was amended too.) You can't just NOT follow the law. Severl KEY things have been pointed out, and whoever has given information to this JLFJR poster is accurate. Especially with the Prong 2 requirement. If the board would like I could post my Lecture notes and PowerPoint Slides from the old Sport History class....some of you should have taken it, some of you slept through it!!
It should not suprise ANYONE but I have a contrarian view to the vast majority on this subject:
1. I am calling BS on JLFJR's post. To think that he and his family ACTUALLY eat at Cracker Barrel among us lowly mortals. Please!!!
2. I DO blame Liberty for this happening. I blame them for bringing wrestling back in the FIRST place. They were out of Title IX compliance for as long as I can remember, which would be around the early 80's when women's sports were absorbed by the NCAA. IF they knew they were that far out of compliance (the NCAA does allow a litle variance) why make this type of commitment which would not only increase the monetary output needed to come into compliance to begin with, but then add Wrestling and the offsetting women's sports.
3. I blame those who WANTED to bring wrestling back as a Varsity sport. You promised to raise the money to cover the costs. You said it would have a neutral revenue impact on the athletic department budget. You promised, you didn't deliver. So yes DAN it IS about money. If in fact the program WERE a revenue neutral endavor, I have a sneaking suspicion different decisions would be made. It was more an emotional desire, to bring back the glory days of Coach B et al, not one based in sound reasoning. If you want a list I can send you one. Since the promised/hoped for private funding did not materialize...welll....lets just say that it could be a lesson for those who are BCS gung ho. Just because you build it does NOT mean they will come.
4. What revenue?? I would be very suprised if the athletic department actually generated net revenue. I don't say that as an LU hater, i say it as someone who can read trade publications and see that only a handful of University's with football programs make money, and they are usually named after States, or a big church in France.
5. As the person who is probably the most familiar with Women's athletics on this forum, I disagree with those that say it has not had a big impact on women's sports. The quality of players and team is so much higher then it was even 10 years ago. Yes, in basketball, there are the Have's and Have Not's. BUT the "core" is much more competitive and their level of play is increasing. This in NO WAY is to say that Title IX is a good law. It isn't. However, when it was inacted it was done so b/c 'the powers that be' paid only lip service to equality. Now, a generation or 2 later, we are paying for that lack of foresight.
6. I am sad to see that wrestling (and baseball) programs across the country are being negatively affected by this law. I do not like it. From a historical perspective how could you NOT love wrestling? How many great stories of people overcoming adversity come from that sport? Even those who end up on weight loss reality shows? I am sorry this is happening in America and I blame the previous generation and Title IX. However, as difficult as it is, we need to look at ourselves first and ask "What did I do to cause this to happen"
7. Vision Quest is the ALL TIME BEST sports movie not named Hoosiers. And it has BY FAR the best soundtrack of any sports movie and one of if not THE best of any movie!! (Dio,Red Rider, Madonna, Journey...)

[Hold My Own]

Last post from me (at least on this forum) ...

Holdmyown--- aren't you a little ashamed that LU took the same (easy) route as those other schools? Doesn't LU stand for more than that? Just another college trying to make a buk??
Take a look at the letter (in the other wrestling thread) written by the dad of one of the freshmen. He was way more articulate than me, but essentially, we both expected more from LU.
Shouldn't LU stand for more than just "the bottom (financial) line"?

I was so hopeful LU stood for more ....

Honestly I'm not Maybe I'm a little insensitive but LU took the exact stance I would have...it's really the only logical decision for this situation. Either spend a number that would have a M after it in budgets alone (not including facilities) or save money and be more "attractive" to other conferences and actually follow the regulations put in front of you by the NCAA (which we werent). This would not have bankrupt Liberty University....but a few of these decisions would not be something I'd like to see the outcome of.

At the end of the day you're directly tied to the situation that brings emotions to this case that I cannot relate with and I understand that. I'm really not trying to argue or anything either or put salt in fresh wounds. I just wanted to answer your post and leave in peace. I hope our leadership made the right decision...at this very moment, it looks like we did.

[PAmedic]

Kids like that are all the inspiration I need to sue the federal government if our lawyers can find even a slight crack that might get our nose under the tent.

ROCK ON, we are with you!



(Sir)

[Hold My Own]

From a historical perspective how could you NOT love wrestling? How many great stories of people overcoming adversity come from that sport?

Patrick Walker....hands down my favorite student-athlete ever at Liberty University....true story. (Jesse is a close 2nd with a senior year to go)

You'll actually be seeing Patrick on a soon to come Liberty marketing publication

[Purple Haize]

From a historical perspective how could you NOT love wrestling? How many great stories of people overcoming adversity come from that sport?

Patrick Walker....hands down my favorite student-athlete ever at Liberty University....true story. (Jesse is a close 2nd with a senior year to go)

In you'll be seeing him on a soon to come Liberty marketing publication

roccgrogh? That you?

[Hold My Own]

I edited it before you posted! Jokes on you!!!

[olldflame]

This is a tale of 2 decisions. Restarting the program was a "feel-good" decision. Huge amounts of money and countless hours of toil were invested to try to recapture the glory days of a sport which played an important role in LU's growth. Now administration was faced with another decision. Taking the feds to the mat to keep wrestling would have felt good too. I can understand how some, especially those who are directly involved, would feel that all of the money and effort which has gone into the program over the past few years means the school is obligated to fight for it. That's just not the case. The school has larger obligations. They made a painful choice; a choice perhaps made more painful by the knowledge that if some clearer forsight had been exercised a few years ago, we wouldn't be going through this for the second time.

[thepostman]

Only at Liberty is every decision made a conspiracy.

or every sports message board supporting any team....just sayin

[jbock13]

Be careful on suing the fed, cause I bet Eric Holder is montioring this board

[Purple Haize]

I edited it before you posted! Jokes on you!!!

Yes, but my post shows evidence of your crime and TRUE identity

[Rooster Cogburn]

All the ins and outs have been discussed, and I hate to see this happen. I do understand the why and support the AD in the decision.
I hate it for the 40 kids, but man do I ever hate this for Jesse. The program he made is basically dead. I don't like saying this, but I really hope he can move on to a big D1 wrestling program.

[PAmedic]

Re: Coach Castro- he will, and it will definitely be our loss.

though suing the crap outta the Fed would go a long way to making me feel better

[bigsmooth]

just a few things:

1. i blame LU for bringing back wrestling. should have never happened due to what has happened now.

2. the supporters of bringing back wrestling said they would raise the funds to keep it going...that never fully happened to what i have been told. please correct me if im wrong.

3. athletics is a business and needs to be run as such. this is not a little bible school anymore.

4. to those who want to "joke" with Dan P. why? he is a parent who is upset about his kid not being able to wrestle if he stays at LU. simply debate without the attacks and trying to be a wise arse. and same to Dan P. i know he is emotional and has the right, but maybe step back a bit and compose himself.

5. the university does care about the kids because if they stay, their schollys remain intact. correct me if im wrong did the other programs across the country allow their wrestlers to stay on scholly??

it is truly tought that this has happened, and hopefully the law can be changed some day. i hate it for wrestling because it was a truly successful sport at LU, but any wrestler or parent is naive if they think that football is not top dog at LU or football/basketball at other schools.

[jcmanson]

Have we had 103 posts in this forum EVER?

[L Fan]

Heard a rumor third hand that the Chancellor is giving this decision to drop the wrestling program a very hard look. He may take on the challenge to title 9. He would be a hero to many even outside Liberty. The pendulum has hopefully reached it's limit.

A ground swell maybe forming I hope it's a tsunami.

[El Scorcho]

4. to those who want to "joke" with Dan P. why?

Not sure if you're talking to me, but I'll answer since I "joked" with Dan P.

I made my points with all sincerity and tacked small attempts at humor onto the end because I felt like the situation needed to be diffused a little. That's all. It obviously wasn't appreciated.

Oh. Well.

[4everfsu]

I am curious if someone donated a farm with stables,riding rings, etc to LU would that help with getting an equestrian team established. If so would that help save the wrestling team?

I don't see why we cannot pray for someone's heart to be touched so that can happen. I know it is a long shot and people may laugh and roll their eyes. And some will say all is lost, don't even try.

Maybe, but I imagine the same things were said years ago when a shepherd boy stepped forward to battle a giant.


Just my 2 cents and prayers.