[Sly Fox]

And believe it or not, there is no mention of Caner. They seem focused on some nefarious attempt by Liberty to infiltrate the military chaplaincy.

Liberty U. seminary draws students, critics

BY TIM TOWNSEND • ttownsend@post-dispatch.com > 314-340-8221 | 1 Comment | Posted: Sunday, January 9, 2011 12:00 am

According to Air Force data, no training program is more popular among prospective chaplains than Liberty Theological Seminary. The school, founded by the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, is part of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va.
One out of every five Air Force chaplain candidates studying at an evangelical seminary is enrolled at Liberty.
Critics say that high rate of enrollment could add to an imbalance of evangelical Christians among the military's corps of chaplains. And some even within the military have raised questions about the quality of Liberty's program.

Click Here for Full Story

[LUconn]

What a joke. The one actual detractor of the program in that article is a guy who brings the heat with this program wrecker

"Resident seminarians, we feel, are better prepared."

I guess they better turn the lights off. That guy has a feeling.

[ALUmnus]

Hey genius, it's a little difficult to attend a residential seminary program while you're in the Air Force, especially while deployed. These guys are such tools. If your problem's with ideology, just come out and say it. LU's program actually goes out of its way to help and benefit soldiers (and their families). Maybe they should spend their energy going after schools that don't even let recruiters on their grounds, not ones that love our military.

[TDDance234]

Hey genius, it's a little difficult to attend a residential seminary program while you're in the Air Force, especially while deployed. These guys are such tools. If your problem's with ideology, just come out and say it. LU's program actually goes out of its way to help and benefit soldiers (and their families). Maybe they should spend their energy going after schools that don't even let recruiters on their grounds, not ones that love our military.

Agreed.

What else are the soldiers supposed to do? The reality is LU goes out of their way to help active-duty students and provides them the opportunity to further their education while still serving. Sounds like a win-win to me?

[Hold My Own]

Also, they try to make it sound like we dont have accreditation while we do, we just dont have the low level accreditation that they speak of, we have a better respected SACS accreditation.

[Sly Fox]

Yeah, I don't think the writer had any grasp of the fact that regional accreditation is considered by academia to be superior to national accreditation. And there are certainly accreditation boards among seminaries who would want no piece of having those Bible-thumpers in Lynchburg considered among them ... and vice versa.

[Hold My Own]

Sly you just hit the nail on the head. Regional > National when it comes to accreditation.

[jmdickens]

The reality is LU goes out of their way to help active-duty students and provides them the opportunity to further their education while still serving. Sounds like a win-win to me?

I think reality might just be that LU is finding a way to get more students....

more students = more $$$

LU is an at profit educational institution. Love this school, but that is what Liberty is doing along with trying to evangelize the world.

[ALUmnus]

The reality is LU goes out of their way to help active-duty students and provides them the opportunity to further their education while still serving. Sounds like a win-win to me?

I think reality might just be that LU is finding a way to get more students....

more students = more $$$

LU is an at profit educational institution. Love this school, but that is what Liberty is doing along with trying to evangelize the world.

That's a nice cynical way to look at it, but you really know nothing about how LU operates with the military. Wanting more students is a given, but you've given it a really slanted view.

[alum82]

jmdickens, your post has got to rank right up there with one of the dumbest posts ever on flamefans. "Liberty is an at profit institution"? I'm assuming you meant for profit. If so, you are really ignorant. LU is a tax exempt non-profit school. The fact that the management operates it so that its expenses are covered by its revenues is a good thing. Many state schools do not and expect the taxpayers to pick up the bill. The school's efforts to provide for its own financial future is the only way the school can carry out its Christian mission in future generations. If LU has found a way to put away money for its future by enrolling more students, then it would be imprudent for the school not to enroll as many students as possible. All the money goes toward fulfilling its non-profit mission so the more money LU makes, the more students it can reach and the more it can impact the world for Christ! DUH

[jcmanson]

DUH

[4everfsu]

jmdickens, your post has got to rank right up there with one of the dumbest posts ever on flamefans. "Liberty is an at profit institution"? I'm assuming you meant for profit. If so, you are really ignorant. LU is a tax exempt non-profit school. The fact that the management operates it so that its expenses are covered by its revenues is a good thing. Many state schools do not and expect the taxpayers to pick up the bill. The school's efforts to provide for its own financial future is the only way the school can carry out its Christian mission in future generations. If LU has found a way to put away money for its future by enrolling more students, then it would be imprudent for the school not to enroll as many students as possible. All the money goes toward fulfilling its non-profit mission so the more money LU makes, the more students it can reach and the more it can impact the world for Christ! DUH

That has to hurt!

[jmdickens]

jmdickens, your post has got to rank right up there with one of the dumbest posts ever on flamefans. "Liberty is an at profit institution"? I'm assuming you meant for profit. If so, you are really ignorant. LU is a tax exempt non-profit school. The fact that the management operates it so that its expenses are covered by its revenues is a good thing. Many state schools do not and expect the taxpayers to pick up the bill. The school's efforts to provide for its own financial future is the only way the school can carry out its Christian mission in future generations. If LU has found a way to put away money for its future by enrolling more students, then it would be imprudent for the school not to enroll as many students as possible. All the money goes toward fulfilling its non-profit mission so the more money LU makes, the more students it can reach and the more it can impact the world for Christ! DUH

Explain how I am ignorant...what did I say that wasn't true? Liberty operates to make money just like all businesses. The school has not found a way to save money for the future, it ups tuition about every year. Also the alumni are starting to get to the age where they can afford to give to LU,so why then are we spending more money? I believe you are mistaken or ignorant to assume that everything Liberty does is without some financial benefit to the school.

[SuperJon]

Liberty likes to make money, but making money and sticking to the mission of the school do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Our seminary has a desire to train up as many people as possible to lead. If you look at our programs, most of them are very practical training based. That's not to say that they slack on the theological side of things, but rather that they put a focus on how to take what you know and translate it to actually doing something. A lot of other seminaries produce great theologians who have no clue how to relate what they know about the Bible to someone who needs to hear it.

Which is more important, training up people that know every Greek or Hebrew verb used in the Bible who can't relate to a normal person or training up people who know the Gospel and can relate it to the people they come into contact with?

It just so happens that the second one makes the seminary much more appealing to more people, and that in turn makes the school money.

[Hold My Own]

jmdickens, your post has got to rank right up there with one of the dumbest posts ever on flamefans. "Liberty is an at profit institution"? I'm assuming you meant for profit. If so, you are really ignorant. LU is a tax exempt non-profit school. The fact that the management operates it so that its expenses are covered by its revenues is a good thing. Many state schools do not and expect the taxpayers to pick up the bill. The school's efforts to provide for its own financial future is the only way the school can carry out its Christian mission in future generations. If LU has found a way to put away money for its future by enrolling more students, then it would be imprudent for the school not to enroll as many students as possible. All the money goes toward fulfilling its non-profit mission so the more money LU makes, the more students it can reach and the more it can impact the world for Christ! DUH

Explain how I am ignorant...what did I say that wasn't true? Liberty operates to make money just like all businesses. The school has not found a way to save money for the future, it ups tuition about every year. Also the alumni are starting to get to the age where they can afford to give to LU,so why then are we spending more money? I believe you are mistaken or ignorant to assume that everything Liberty does is without some financial benefit to the school.

Dickens I would just like to comment on a few points you made.

1. Of course tuition increases just as inflation does...the key is trying to not increase beyond that rate and if you look at our cost per credit (both residential and online really) we are well below the average rate.

2. Yes our Alumni are starting to reach the age of giving back which is why our Alumni giving has increased 100% in a 5 year span. Also it's important to remember though that the financial base through the years was Faith Partners which is decreasing by the day.

3. Wouldnt you consider taking the steps towards becoming credited and approved for a AA rated bond as ways to "not to spend more money" or at least spend "our" money.

4. Obviously Liberty University is a 501c3, I believe everyone knows that but I think it's important to not believe we have to run at a break even analysis because of this fact. If you want to be Biblical about it it would be considered using the gifts/opportunities God has given you. Or doing what you can to expand His kingdom....IMO it would be sinful to have the ability to have hundreds of thousands of students but only operating at a break even analysis to keep tuition at a break even point which in return would mean educating far fewer then we could have had the ability to educate.


I will say that all of my points can easily become or be excuses for Liberty to hide behind as a motive for greed. It boils down to trusting God that He is the one being looked to for answers for guidance by JLFjr and others in leadership positions. At some point the Harvard's and others lost their Christian roots...I'm well aware of this. It's so very important for us to not forget that, and not forget our history because if we forget our foundation/founder then we will get off course and my points are no longer because of expansion of His kingdom but rather greed and worldly values. There is such a delicate balance with all of this.


I went on a rant but I thought it was important to post....hope it makes sense.

[jmdickens]

it doesn't sound like a rant. I agree about harvard and other schools losing their biblical roots, but I worry we are becoming more and more like these other schools.

Can someone dig the numbers for our tuition increase compared to other schools? I will if no one else will do it.

But I still have a concern about what we do. I see advertisements for Liberty all the time on tv, facebook (and that is the law school) which bothers me, and then we mail stuff to every student at christian high schools. It isn't like people who go to christian schools and watch christian tv shows need to be informed about the school. Other than sporting events when do we see advertising for schools? I know im the minority but I feel sometimes it looks like we are marketing God and christianity for profit. Im not saying LU is evil or is greedy, but that is how it looks to this christian.

[Hold My Own]

Increasing online education boils down to leads and no matter who you are at some point you reach a point where those leads become less and less successful so to keep the standard growth rate you have to increase things like advertising. If you were to see the amount of money that Phoenix University spends on advertising its astounding....hundreds of millions a year. While we spend just a small % of the number they do. It may have to increase in the future to keep the growth rate up, if that's the path LU is wanting to take.

I'm not sure if you were talking about Law school ads, LU or LUO ads but I gave an example of online. Also, there is nothing wrong with seeing a ton of ads or more ads then in the past...its when sacrifices are made to increase numbers when you have a potential problem (i.e. no longer praying with students, etc) which will never happen.


To your point of using God to make money: Again its the delicate balance of profit and being a Christian...IMHO God never says you have to be poor, He also never promises you'll have an abundance of wealth...but to not pursue success because of the fear of using Him to get there is wrong within its own right. I know your are not suggesting this but are we to hide that we are a Christian school in our advertising so we are not "using Him" to gain more students? Of course not!...again the delicate balance.

Also, while He may not have called us all to be wealthy when He does bless some with wealth (as He obviously has Liberty University) I am a FIRM believer He holds you to a higher standard. Just as He holds those that are paid by the Church to higher standards (Pastors and other church staff). So yes, Liberty has to be very careful with the blessings and success it's been given.....just as quick as we've received it can be taken away, I dont care how smart you are.

And for the record, I appreciate your concern with "us becoming more and more like those schools" because that obviously means you care. I would argue though while we may be in a "new era" at Liberty University the mission has not changed. We may dress/go about it a little different then in 1971 but that is simply adapting to culture while not changing our foundation. I too worry about the future of Liberty, not so much in the next few years (b/c I truly trust JLFjr) but 30 years from now....when JLFjr has passed the responsibility on to someone else. However, every time I start to worry I quickly remember that it's obvious that God's hand of protection is still on us and He's bigger than any of these small concerns and trust we'll be looked after in the future.

"All is well at Liberty University"

[jmdickens]

I'll go with that.....I like the balance test you are referencing and I can understand that. But I do like exclusivity, and I know that is more Calvin than Christian, but that is only in referencing to education. The online ad was distinctly for the law school, but I have been told we are not trying to increase the size of the law school because we do not have the facilities for it. The law school already shares it's library with seminary students.

So in 30 years are we looking at any posters as leadership?...lol (no, that doesnt mean me!!!! BUT some maybe :wink)

[ALUmnus]

it doesn't sound like a rant. I agree about harvard and other schools losing their biblical roots, but I worry we are becoming more and more like these other schools.

Can someone dig the numbers for our tuition increase compared to other schools? I will if no one else will do it.

But I still have a concern about what we do. I see advertisements for Liberty all the time on tv, facebook (and that is the law school) which bothers me, and then we mail stuff to every student at christian high schools. It isn't like people who go to christian schools and watch christian tv shows need to be informed about the school. Other than sporting events when do we see advertising for schools? I know im the minority but I feel sometimes it looks like we are marketing God and christianity for profit. Im not saying LU is evil or is greedy, but that is how it looks to this christian.

If what you're saying is true, then who is profitting? Not shareholders. Maybe the decision-makers? That's a little slanderous if you ask me. Liberty is not about making money for profit, it's about impact. And to create the kind of impact the leadership feels is most effective, like most things, that costs money. LU makes money to use it to fulfill its mission, not to profit. If you can find evidence otherwise, please share.

[Hold My Own]

I guess I need to get another hobby or something b/c my FF absence is making me want to post a lot tonight...I know that was a question for Dickens but I wanted to add to your point. Funds of a 501c3 are not hard to uncover...heck, I've seen salaries of the top employees posted on here! So when a business model that is successful is used those that profit are the endowment, infrastructure and other improvements. If it was individuals it would quickly be uncovered by the spies on Flame Fans!


Also, the checks and balances that are in place at Liberty are to commended.....we've all heard Dr. Falwell speak of TRBC having the authority to take over one day if need be. I'm not going to lie, even I thought that was great PR speak and truly didnt believe it was possible...but even this very year another check and balance was added by the Board of Trustees to ensure that our direction is safe.

[alum82]

it doesn't sound like a rant. I agree about harvard and other schools losing their biblical roots, but I worry we are becoming more and more like these other schools.

Can someone dig the numbers for our tuition increase compared to other schools? I will if no one else will do it.

But I still have a concern about what we do. I see advertisements for Liberty all the time on tv, facebook (and that is the law school) which bothers me, and then we mail stuff to every student at christian high schools. It isn't like people who go to christian schools and watch christian tv shows need to be informed about the school. Other than sporting events when do we see advertising for schools? I know im the minority but I feel sometimes it looks like we are marketing God and christianity for profit. Im not saying LU is evil or is greedy, but that is how it looks to this christian.

jmd, LU's tuition is among the lowest of all private colleges. LU's online tuition is much less than other big online schools. LU's recent tuition increases have been much less than other colleges and universities in Virginia and other states. I don't have the numbers to prove it but I promise you, if you do the research, you will see that I am right. I know because my kids shopped many different schools over the last three years.

You complain about advertisements for the law school and mailings to Christian school kids. Then, you say you worry about LU becoming more like secular schools because of this. Then, you say these secular schools only use sports to advertise. You are contradicting yourself. The big secular schools are less aggressive than LU in their recruiting--yes they only use sports because they depend on higher tuition increases, public money and big endowments to pay their bills. LU, on the other hand, is more entrepreneurial, more aggressive in recruiting and advertising, makes more money and therefore is able to increase tuition less and charge less. What you call "marketing Christianity for profit" is really LU being a good steward of its resources as the Bible teaches and using good business practices so that it can pay its bills and keep its tuition low AND TRAIN MORE CHAMPIONS FOR CHRIST IN THE FUTURE.

I have been reading this board for a few months and this is not the first time I have seen "old timers" from LU like me resisting LU becoming the world class university that Dr. Falwell dreamed about. They must have thought Dr. Falwell was just kidding when he said that because I saw another poster a while back say that our football team was not spreading the gospel like it did in the 70s when it was mostly preacher boys on the team. He said the players back then would witness more to the other teams after the games or something like that. These folks just don't get it. The goal was not to build a big church disguised as a school but to build a world class university that would train young people how to change the world for Christ. Anything LU can do to attract students to LU instead of some secular party school, LU should do it -- whether it is mailings or sports or commercials on TV. Dr. Falwell used to say "use every available means to reach every available person". I am glad LU is applying that philosophy to reaching students and if they can make some money to put away for the future in the process, then more power to them!

[jmdickens]

jmd, LU's tuition is among the lowest of all private colleges. LU's online tuition is much less than other big online schools. LU's recent tuition increases have been much less than other colleges and universities in Virginia and other states. I don't have the numbers to prove it but I promise you, if you do the research, you will see that I am right. I know because my kids shopped many different schools over the last three years.

You complain about advertisements for the law school and mailings to Christian school kids. Then, you say you worry about LU becoming more like secular schools because of this. Then, you say these secular schools only use sports to advertise. You are contradicting yourself. The big secular schools are less aggressive than LU in their recruiting--yes they only use sports because they depend on higher tuition increases, public money and big endowments to pay their bills. LU, on the other hand, is more entrepreneurial, more aggressive in recruiting and advertising, makes more money and therefore is able to increase tuition less and charge less. What you call "marketing Christianity for profit" is really LU being a good steward of its resources as the Bible teaches and using good business practices so that it can pay its bills and keep its tuition low AND TRAIN MORE CHAMPIONS FOR CHRIST IN THE FUTURE.

sigh again.....

You missed the point, if kids want to go to a christian school they will look at LU so in my opinion I feel it is a waste of resources. But this model still does not make the tuition any less the public universities....which everyone realizes gets government subsidies, but cost is very important to many people.....I will take your word LU is cheaper than most private schools. This business model reminds me of a south park episode where Cartman makes a Christian Rock band to get rich....I know Liberty isnt doing that, but your explanation is exactly what they did in the episode. "Tell people it is Christian and they will buy it"

Now what you said about adapting to the secular schools, I honestly could care less about that in regards to rules for students. Education, I cling to what Dr. Falwell said about "If it is Christian, it should be better" attitude. With that attitude I think Dr. Falwell envisioned that our education would be on the same level as BYU and ND and it will one day, but sometimes I just feel we are adding more to just increase the quantity instead of the quality of students. Maybe we are doing both??? IDK (i really hope people don't think I have any bad perceptions of Liberty, I love this school, but nothing or anyone is perfect so there is bound to be disagreements and different opinions about issues.)

[Hold My Own]

I just wanted to post an update in regards to the St. Louis article. I'm going to share a few emails in regards to this article. After reading the article Capitan Keith came across as critical of a Liberty University education while those were not his intentions at all:

From: Keith, Steven E COL MIL USAF
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:11 PM
To: Anthony Robbins
Subject: Retraction Request (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: FOUO

Mr Robbins,

In regards to the article, Liberty U. Seminary Draws Students, Critics
(posted 9 Jan 2011), I am disappointed the article infers that I'm
attacking the quality of Liberty University's on-line seminary program.
It is my personal experience and opinion that in-resident programs more
thoroughly prepare students for the Air Force Chaplaincy than on-line
programs. Again, I do not agree with the inference that I am
questioning the quality of Liberty's program or for that matter any
other seminary's program. Please retract the last line of paragraph
three, "And some even within the military have raised questions about
the quality of Liberty's program." For clarity, it is my personal
opinion that Liberty's on-line seminary program is one of the best!

Thank you for your consideration.

Chaplain Keith

Steven E. Keith, Ch, Col, USAF
Commandant, Air Force Chaplain Corps

Johnnie Moore (who handles our media relations) contacted the St Louis Post Dispatch and here is Johnnie commenting on their response:

the Post Dispatch denied my request to substantiate their assertion regarding the quality of LU's chaplaincy program, or to retract it. The editor refused didn't substantiate the statement and he refused to retract the sentence.

So, I asked Commandant Keith about his real perception of the online program (which is positive), and if he was misrepresented in the article. He was. So, he wrote the reporter the following request for a retraction.

Also it is worth noting that this is not the first incident this reporter has had misquoting an individual or company (they were not Liberty related) but he refused to correct the situation then as well.

Just thought curious minds would find this interesting and to get a better idea of what Liberty has to encounter on a regular basis.

[alum82]

sigh again.....

You missed the point, if kids want to go to a christian school they will look at LU so in my opinion I feel it is a waste of resources. But this model still does not make the tuition any less the public universities....which everyone realizes gets government subsidies, but cost is very important to many people.....I will take your word LU is cheaper than most private schools. This business model reminds me of a south park episode where Cartman makes a Christian Rock band to get rich....I know Liberty isnt doing that, but your explanation is exactly what they did in the episode. "Tell people it is Christian and they will buy it.

jmd, you are really hard-headed. I bet you and your wife have some knock-down, drag-out fights. You think it is a waste of resources to get the word out about LU because Christian kids already know about it? Are you kidding? LU is so unique, it has no choice but to constantly explain itself to every new generation of potential students. I know plenty of Christian high school kids who have never heard of LU or Jerry Falwell. And many of the ones who have think it just another Bob Jones or Tennessee Temple. Even more public school kids fall in that category. If LU stopped being aggressive about getting the word out to prospective students, it would not have near as many applicants and would have to accept less qualified students to fill up the seats. And there is nothing wrong with advertising that LU is "Christian". Your rock band analogy is flawed in two respects: (1) it really was not Christian and (2) the profit went into someone's pocket. LU is a Christian university and none of the money goes into anyone's pocket. It is all used to carry out LU's mission.

Now what you said about adapting to the secular schools, I honestly could care less about that in regards to rules for students. Education, I cling to what Dr. Falwell said about "If it is Christian, it should be better" attitude. With that attitude I think Dr. Falwell envisioned that our education would be on the same level as BYU and ND and it will one day, but sometimes I just feel we are adding more to just increase the quantity instead of the quality of students. Maybe we are doing both??? IDK (i really hope people don't think I have any bad perceptions of Liberty, I love this school, but nothing or anyone is perfect so there is bound to be disagreements and different opinions about issues.)

OK, LU is recruiting and advertising so it can attract a better quality of student so that it can become the ND of Christian schools and you are against that???? You can't have it both ways. LU will never be the ND of evangelical schools if it doesn't promote LU and get the word out to the world aggressively. Dr. Falwell understood that and spent every waking moment doing just that. I am glad it is continuing.

[SuperJon]

I grew up 2.5 hours from Liberty and had never even heard of it until I was a sophomore at Coastal.