[olldflame]

There isn't an overall chaplain for LU athletics that I know of, but most of the individual teams have someone who volunteers in that role. Football has their own Director of Spiritual Development on staff, and Ed Gomes has been in that position for years.

PS: I honestly had not read what Smoothy posted before I typed that.

[The Natural]

If the coach is a mature believer who has a credible testimony, the " balance " between saved and unsaved players has been around 80/20 with baseball. That is what it was in the Royer Tomlin era. They knew who was saved from the interview and application process up front. If they were convinced a player was not saved but understood the rules and environment he was getting into...they signed him with the goal of leading the player to the Lord at LU. The percentage may have been slightly higher or lower but always where the unsaved guys were in a clear minority to protect the integrity of the program,school and witness before God. They wrestled with it, prayed about it. Coach Worthington gave the gospel every day to the guys, Royer and Tomlin were intentional about the soul winning aspect with the unsaved guys. superjon...the phrase bible thumpers is extremely offensive in light of the fact there has been no real attempt until very recently to straighten out the conduct in and around the program.

I am certain the the ratio now is much closer to 20/80 ! That is no better than any secular university where you will find 6 or 7 guys who profess to be Christians. That on its face is wholly unacceptable at Liberty. Slyfox talked about ORU and the reality there is they have a great baseball team and
Christian in name only. If as Worthington,Richardson,Hutton,Royer and Tomlin had the goal of winning the unsaved guys to Christ and the ratio is held to a standard that makes sense...I am all in. But if my numbers are right that it is now closer to 20/80...who is influencing who ?

A previous poster made the point that asking a player if he is saved is not even done anymore on the application. But a coach knows or is supposed to know what he is recruiting. Dr.Falwell would never wink,nod,put up with a 20/80 ratio and say that is healthy spiritually.

Hold My Own has a little quote on his posts that reflects how the Doc would feel if LIberty should cease to be distinctive from every other school.


The path to destruction is wide. It is time to get off the expressway and have the leadership find their spiritual GPS. The reality is the on field results after three years are no better than Royer, Pastors and the other more important eternal lasting issues are much worse.

More than double the salary, assistants 10'to 15 K more than the previous head coach ever made,hundreds of thousands in field improvements, lights and huge budgets for recruiting. If its is results on the field you are judging....we are underachieving and running in place.

Not living in a bubble and not hawking for Royer either. Just putting light in a dark place. We all can see better.

[SuperJon]

I'm perfectly fine with a 20/80 ratio if the leadership is there and the opportunities to hear about Jesus and the Bible are there and the players in the 80 category are open and receptive to the rules and regulations at Liberty. (For the record, from the guys I know from the Royer years, most of them would tell you it was closer to 65/35 than 80/20. Let's not exaggerate to make one look like a saint.) The problem I have with our current system is that instead of being there for the players as they struggle with baseball, with life, with their spirituality, and all of the other things that come with being 18-22 years old, our staff cuts a player and kicks him to the curb if he isn't batting .330 and hitting home runs. They get put in the dog house and have no chance to get out. I'm not suggesting we baby our players, but as a coach at Liberty, there are responsibilities other than recruiting and trying to win.

Our spiritual leaders on the team this year were some of our players more so than our coaches. Players have a hard time believing that they need to start setting a better spiritual example when it comes from a guy that was using his share of four letter words in the game that caused that speech (see: Duke. Away.).

I am not going to question where our coaches stand in their walk with Jesus because without knowing them personally, it's not my place to question that. However, what I can question is how they are leading the people they are charged with leading. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure how well that's going.

[Libertine]

If the coach is a mature believer who has a credible testimony, the " balance " between saved and unsaved players has been around 80/20 with baseball. That is what it was in the Royer Tomlin era. They knew who was saved from the interview and application process up front. If they were convinced a player was not saved but understood the rules and environment he was getting into...they signed him with the goal of leading the player to the Lord at LU. The percentage may have been slightly higher or lower but always where the unsaved guys were in a clear minority to protect the integrity of the program,school and witness before God. They wrestled with it, prayed about it. Coach Worthington gave the gospel every day to the guys, Royer and Tomlin were intentional about the soul winning aspect with the unsaved guys. superjon...the phrase bible thumpers is extremely offensive in light of the fact there has been no real attempt until very recently to straighten out the conduct in and around the program.

I am certain the the ratio now is much closer to 20/80 ! That is no better than any secular university where you will find 6 or 7 guys who profess to be Christians. That on its face is wholly unacceptable at Liberty. Slyfox talked about ORU and the reality there is they have a great baseball team and
Christian in name only. If as Worthington,Richardson,Hutton,Royer and Tomlin had the goal of winning the unsaved guys to Christ and the ratio is held to a standard that makes sense...I am all in. But if my numbers are right that it is now closer to 20/80...who is influencing who ?

A previous poster made the point that asking a player if he is saved is not even done anymore on the application. But a coach knows or is supposed to know what he is recruiting. Dr.Falwell would never wink,nod,put up with a 20/80 ratio and say that is healthy spiritually.

Hold My Own has a little quote on his posts that reflects how the Doc would feel if LIberty should cease to be distinctive from every other school.


The path to destruction is wide. It is time to get off the expressway and have the leadership find their spiritual GPS. The reality is the on field results after three years are no better than Royer, Pastors and the other more important eternal lasting issues are much worse.

More than double the salary, assistants 10'to 15 K more than the previous head coach ever made,hundreds of thousands in field improvements, lights and huge budgets for recruiting. If its is results on the field you are judging....we are underachieving and running in place.

Not living in a bubble and not hawking for Royer either. Just putting light in a dark place. We all can see better.

This has got to be the most preening, self-righteous, Pharisaical thing I've ever read on this board. And for you to jump right on in with it, Jon? I'm disappointed.

It's embarrassing to me that this conversation has even taken a turn in this direction.

[SuperJon]

I have absolutely no problem with the kids we're recruiting. That's where The Natural's beef is. I'm just not in love with the leadership once they get here. I was around Rocco to watch how he led things and developed the players in every facet of the word. I've seen how Coach Green does it. I've seen how Coach Layer does it. The same with Coach Alder, Coach Tolsma, etc. Any coach I see will be compared to Rocco and Green when it comes to the spiritual leadership of a program.

[olldflame]

The born again litmus test for recruiting is a thing of the past, and even us old hags need to face the fact that there is no going back with that, so it's pretty silly IMHO to be speculating on what the percentages were and are. Even back in the 70s when a "statement of faith" was required for admission to the school, we had a significant number of unsaved students, including athletes. I do believe strongly though that there needs to be a spiritual aspect in all of our teams.

It may not be the same in every program, but it needs to be something which goes well beyond just following the rules and staying out of trouble, and it needs to be driven by the head coach. This doesn't mean that he has to be the one actually conducting team Bible studies or devotions. Not every coach has the comfort level with that of a Green, Rocco, Tolsma, or even Layer. (I say "even" only because last year was Dale's first time in that role, and he seemed to jump right into it). It's fine if someone else does most of the talking, but the coach needs to be totally invested in it, and have a sensitivity to the needs of his team in the spiritual realm as well as the athletic and academic.

[bigsmooth]

natural.....we are better the first three years under toman than royer...it is factual, grab a media guide and read it. is the spiritual health better? NO..i think we can all agree with that. you are obviously of the old school way of thinking about what type of athlete should attend LU and that is your opinion, but if you asked every coach if they have had unsaved players they would tell you yes, but that they signed them knowing that this person had quality attributes and who could abide by university rules and then have the possibility of becoming a Christian. do you think that some athletes have left LU and not been saved?? i know it for a fact, but you know after four years of hearing the word and being in a Christian envrionment this athlete was still not ready, but eventually came to know the Lord. it was because he was here, and he might not have ever had the opportunity if he was not.

To me this gets into a theological issue that really irritates me because it reminds me of the super fundamentalist Christian schools that are not into "reforming sinners" but placing their people in a bubble. LU is not like that anymore. i bet you dont think that their are homosexuals that attend LU..well there are...there are drinkers, smokers, fornicators, democrats , etc...you get the picture. LU still remains true to its mission and when it steers off of it Doc said to burn it down. I personally do not Think that will ever happen, but it is up to the coach as to what type of player he brings in. suppose toman was a new Christian when he came to LU..Should Jeff Barber not have hired him?? probably not, but if he was the,team should have had a spiritual life director like football does. the the coach could be growing as well as the players. i honestly think all teams should. Could Jeff Barber have been smokescreened by Toman?? possibly, but until you hear it from JB or even toman himself, it is unclear to speculate.

off theology, natural, you keep bringing up increased budgets and stadium improvements...anytime a new administration comes in, things change, the school has changed quite a bit and we are in a better financial situation so you really need to get off of that. how many people execpt insiders really know that stuff?? not many. do you know that with more resources that royer would be successful?? i think the odds would favor it, but you really do not know. but you need to grasp that the only way most can compare toman vs. royer is on the field in the first three years. their is no mistake who is better. I AGREE WITH YOU 110% that spiritually the team is not where it needs to be and something has to be done about it. i just disagree with you throwing toman under the bus. i get that royer is your friend and you protect friends, i would too. and to be clear i am not friends with toman, nor do i know about his spiritual health, but i know that the athletics administration and chacnellor read FF so im sure steps are being made to fix it. we all want what is best for our beloved school, we just disagree with how to do it.

[PAmedic]

for some reason the FFF message board popped into my head.

I doubt we'll see the ladies' teams in kulats any time soon, either- so I guess some will be upset about that as well.

Bottom line: times change, I don't believe the school's message has

[The Natural]

Enough said. I agree that LU has changed. Smooth your last post has some good points. I am laughing at the idea that I am being described as a right wing fundamentalist. Libertine...thanks for the compliment. I'd rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I'm not !

Respectfully

[SuperJon]

Through all of this discussion about the spiritual side of the program, let me say that I'm happy with the results we've had. Yeah, we could've been better but I'll take what we've had. A few small changes here and there and we're ready to take that next big step and become a team that can make the regionals year in and year out.

[JK37]

LU still remains true to its mission and when it steers off of it Doc said to burn it down. I personally do not Think that will ever happen

I wish I had your faith. We are and will always be one generation away from off-course & off-mission becoming a reality. That's how serious and tenuous it is.

And that is why every entity within the University - especially such public ones in nature as athletics - undergoes the scrutiny apparently now being directed toward baseball.

[The Natural]

The transformation of Liberty to a secular university became complete when the Doc died. He was always involved in athletic hires and while that wrankled many in the A.D. office it usually meant you had a true Christian on board. Doc recognized the real thing when he saw it. Jerry Jr wants no part of that personal involvement which does make sense since his passion has never been sports.

The majority of the team is non-christians ( with all the off field junk that any secular university has to geal with), Superjon makes my whole point when he says a few of the players were better spiritual role models than the coaches...how can anyone not see the foolishness of that reality ? The lowest common denominator and tolerance is the new normal. Anyone who says this isn't right or the real LU way must be a fundenatalist bible thumper who is living in the past. " Or, " Hey don't you get it that Liberty doesn't ask kids if they are saved anymore ?" " Hey, you probably don't know we have homosexuals, mormons, muslims and democrats on campus now ". And the real slap is when I hear Jerry Jr or Barber raising money for sports by saying, " were building Champions For Christ " !

The last post was spot on about what has happenned ( not what could happen ) to the baseball program. The sad reality is the people who justify this path don't understand they have made a mockery of the mission statement of the school. Worst part is they don't know the difference.

How low can we go ???

[bigsmooth]

so now LU is a "secular" university and you want to personally attack JLF Jr. and Jeff Barber? if anyone who is reading this is not a Christian how would they think of your actions? NO ONE HAS DISAGREED WITH YOU ABOUT THE SPIRITUAL STATE OF THE TEAM. JLF Jr. has really come out of his shell and has taken to sports and cares a lot about the students. heck ask the students on this board. then you use one of my statements and add muslims and mormons when i never said that. yes their are homosexuals and fornicators and drinkers....there were probably some there when you went there. LU is not Liberty Baptist College anymore, the school has changed and is bigger. the dress code has changed because quite frankly, to have the dress code that i had, i can guarantee the enrollment would be lower. i say this because in order to get the enrollment Doc wanted he knew some things needed to change and these changes happened before he died. you want the old LBC back where things were a bubble. you were protected and were around 100% Christians. well im encouraged that we have unsaved students here and that they will have oodles of opportunities to hear the word. LU is still building Champions for Christ and i really hope JLF Jr. will come and speak to this because im sick of you, natural ripping LU and calling it secular and attacking our chancellor and AD. LU is not Baylor. You do live in the past natural. I guess since TRBC does not sing old school hymns and people wear jeans and t-shirts to church that is wrong too?? with your mentality LU would be like bob jones....im serious. again we all agree that the spiritual side of our baseball team is not good, and im sure that steps are being made to fix it, but fo you to continue and bash the school we all love is simply wrong.

[flamesfilmguy]

i got it guys. Natural was a transfer student from PCC. (Pensicola Christian college)

[flameshaw]

I wasn't going to chime in here, but feel a couple of things need to be said. I played on the first football team and baseball teams. There were unsaved kids on both of the teams. We did some things that were not honoring to God or the school. Things like this have not just appeared in the last few years.

I for one am happy that we take kids into the family that do not profess to be christians. If they stay through 4 years, they will have an excellent chance of being better people, good productive members of society and many will become belivers.

One must recogize that we are building a sports program with these atheletes, not a seminary. That being said, they do have an obligation to uphold the standards of the school, which are not insignificant. LU becoming a secular University? Far from it. For me, as long as the boys continue down the currect path, it will never become a school that we will be ashamed of and will remain distintictly Christian.

[The Natural]

Yes there were non-christians on some of the sports teams in the old days. So if you got in like I did when in your heart you knew you were unsaved...you knew what you had to write on your application to get accepted. Now it is not expected at all. Huge huge difference my friend. So when we did things that dishonored the Lord, we had a greater awareness of the spirit of the rules and why we were expected to follow them.

But what I find missing in all the justification posts about non-christians being openly recruited and proudly saluted as an norm are the biblical convictions that should flow out of the verses that talk about " come out from among them and be ye separate ". That is not a call to legalism and narrow mindedness but rather to an extrordinary life marked by the Blood of Jesus. I don't hear much talk about the reputation of Jesus or the call to live a life worthy of the sacrifice He made for all of us who have been impacted by the school, the Doc whom we say we love and respect. When did it become ok to have coaches curse like sailors, be non-christians and carnal to the point that players are considered better spiritual role models ? Is the quest for a national championship more important than competing for the high calling of being an example both on and off the field for Christ ? The Bible makes it so clear that you can gain the whole world and lose your soul. You can get to Omaha and win and dishonor Christ the way you got there. That is why I am as passionate about speaking out.

Do I hope and pray for those players who have been "kicked to the curb" and how they will cope l with the manner in which they were dispatched ? I do. Were not running a nursery...and this is a D-1 program. But the way we do things matters. Does anyone think that is going on ? The kind of things going on at LU wouldn't be tolerated at many secular universities let alone Liberty. Superjon just touches the tip of the iceberg in his posts about recruits and player treatment.

Doc was a man of 2nd chances for many people including me when I was at LU. He understood that forgiveness and mercy were an essential part of sanctification for true believers. He had basic non-negotiable pillars that had to be in place with the leaders he chose as coaches and profs. When he learned there was a wolf in sheeps clothes doing damage to the name of Christ at Liberty...no-one had more courage and better aim than the Doc to take them out. It made him controversial at times for no-one who leads can please everyone. That is what I loved about him. He didn't take a poll. He never sharank away from a tough decision and didn't have leadership remorse.

Now is such a time for Jr ! Many are watching how this is handled for a variety of different reasons. Each has a stake in this because underneath it all we are supposed to be different as a result of the price paid on our behalf.

Respectfully as I know how !!

[jcmanson]

I'm not close to the baseball program at all so I'm not sure if the allegations are true. One thing I do know, regardless of sport, all of our coaches should be Christians and pointing their athletes toward Christ. Now everyone is different and being a "spiritual leader" may not be someone's call, and I think that's ok for a coach at LU. One thing that is not ok is having a coach who is not a christian, and pointing the athletes away from Christ. I can't speak for Toman, and none of us can. That is between Toman and Christ.

Now, could someone "slip through the cracks." Sure, and that is what JB and JJ are there for. I will trust them to make the right decision.