[ToTheLeft]

So, Jon, you're not influenced by the people who's job it is to make the school look as perfect as possible, that sign your paychecks, but I am influenced by a man who's never done a thing for me in my life?

I have met Mr. Barber, I've met a lot of people in the AD's. I am just trying to figure out what's going on here, not the canned answer by the AD. The answers that were given earlier (By Haize) were good enough for me, but this "secret knowledge" keeps being put out there, and that's wrong. I'm not gonna sit here and let you guys devalue RD based on things you're not allowed to talk about.

[pbow]

well this has been ridiculously entertaining

[SuperJon]

I'm definitely influenced. I never claimed I wasn't. I have said all along that I have heard both sides of the story and have put both sides together to formulate my opinion. What you're doing is refusing to acknowledge the side that can't be said publicly simply because it can't be said publicly.

Nothing we say will bring value or devalue Coach Dunton's reputation. The things he did that are known in the coaching community are what will do that and I'm completely positive that everything he has done, both positive and negative, is known in that community.

[ToTheLeft]

Hah, yeah, you're completely unbiased and came up with this all on your own despite getting paychecks with a LU on them for 3 years. Yet I am biased because I've met Coach D like 5 times total in my life and I'm friends with TBGBGB. Give me a break, Jon. You're a PR guy for the school, not an unbiased advocate for truth.

[SuperJon]

Oh, I'm completely biased. I don't deny that at all. I'm biased towards whatever makes Liberty better. I always have been and I always will be. If Coach Rocco, Green, or Toman did the same things that Coach Dunton did then I would have the same opinion for them that I do about Coach Dunton. I will always pull for Liberty University no matter who the coach or athletic director is. I will not cheer against or take pride in Liberty losing or having negative things happen to them simply because I don't like the athletic director. That is the thing that single-handedly bugs me more than anything about the Dunton Support Team. Liberty University is bigger than one coach, one player, or one athletic director.

[JK37]

I'm not gonna sit here and let you guys devalue RD based on things you're not allowed to talk about.

If true devaluation were going on, this might be true. But for the very reason TTL stands disconcerted (secretive, perceptibly in-the-know non-disclosures), I don't see that occurring. No one is devaluing the man. In fact, by professionally declining to reveal details, they're keeping themselves form devaluing the man. They're simply saying that his winning alone is: a) not the reason for which he was not retained, and b) not an ends which can justify the means.

Too often in this argument, RD's side makes it's case (a very convincing one, I might add) that the on-court success he brought to the University is the greatest its ever known in its brief athletic history. Aside from the on-court accomplishments of Jeff Meyer, that may be true. Then, RD's detractors calmly state that for reasons they cannot disclose, RD's non-retention to the University had nothing to do with winning and losing. Professionally, and for many reasons already stated, the side defending LU's decision to not retain RD are CORRECT for keeping the details to themselves. And here, we arrive at the stalemate.

Anyone on either side of the debate would do well to examine numbers seven, eight, and nine of Kessler and Olson's 18 Principles of Coaching Biblically:

7- Pursuing “Winning” as a Goal Inhibits Performance -- "The pursuit of 'winning' produces anxiety, tension and fear of failure that hinders relaxation and thus diminishes maximal performance .. 'Winning' as a motivation hampers performance when winning a game or a 'winning season' is no longer a probability or possible…You cannot serve two masters."

8- The Goal is to Glorify God By Excellence, Not Winning -- "Excellence is 'Being the very best you can be' (Faithfulness to God) .. Winning games is a by-product of the pursuit of excellence for Jesus’ sake .. Bring Glory to God by running in such a way to get the Prize."

9- Emphasize People, not Productivity .. "Motivation is based in relationship…capture people’s hearts, coach the heart behind the jersey .. Emphasizing productivity often squashes people and always limits performance .. Emphasizing people build people up and consequently enhances performance."



The points made here by Kessler and Olson are why I have a hard time with the defense of RD always being about his winning (the forgetfulness of a less-than-stellar season notwithstanding).

[ToTheLeft]

Wow. Yeah, I guess I'm just undermining the whole Athletic Department because I want to know why it's okay to gossip and slander the former head coach with hidden secret knowledge.

I hate to see Liberty lose, too. I want to see them win. But I'm tired of painting a pretty picture of what's going when it's not pretty. Losing to Kentucky in WBB isn't better because they pulled an upset. We didn't deserve the playoffs since we lost to Presby. Men's basketball is under-performing and needs to improve to catch up to the level of funding and the facilities we have available. Baseball needs to live up to expectations. I used to be so excited about just being a part of what's going on here, I couldn't see the whole picture. This school has some work to do, and I want to see it get done. But this RD issue, like everything else, gets swept under the rug in the name of "progress" and "moving forward". Once we move forward, and progress, then we can actually put it behind us. The ghost of RD wouldn't haunt us if we were doing as well or better without him as we were with him. That's why this isn't as simple as "he did bad things, and I'm happy with the way the program looks now, it's not about wins and losses". Not about wins and losses is for losers, and I don't want Liberty to be a loser. I want it to win.

[ToTheLeft]

I'm not gonna sit here and let you guys devalue RD based on things you're not allowed to talk about.

If true devaluation were going on, this might be true. But for the very reason TTL stands disconcerted (secretive, perceptibly in-the-know non-disclosures), I don't see that occurring. No one is devaluing the man. In fact, by professionally declining to reveal details, they're keeping themselves form devaluing the man. They're simply saying that his winning alone is: a) not the reason for which he was not retained, and b) not an ends which can justify the means.

Too often in this argument, RD's side makes it's case (a very convincing one, I might add) that the on-court success he brought to the University is the greatest its ever known in its brief athletic history. Aside from the on-court accomplishments of Jeff Meyer, that may be true. Then, RD's detractors calmly state that for reasons they cannot disclose, RD's non-retention to the University had nothing to do with winning and losing. Professionally, and for many reasons already stated, the side defending LU's decision to not retain RD are CORRECT for keeping the details to themselves. And here, we arrive at the stalemate.

Anyone on either side of the debate would do well to examine numbers seven, eight, and nine of Kessler and Olson's 18 Principles of Coaching Biblically:

7- Pursuing “Winning” as a Goal Inhibits Performance -- "The pursuit of 'winning' produces anxiety, tension and fear of failure that hinders relaxation and thus diminishes maximal performance .. 'Winning' as a motivation hampers performance when winning a game or a 'winning season' is no longer a probability or possible…You cannot serve two masters."

8- The Goal is to Glorify God By Excellence, Not Winning -- "Excellence is 'Being the very best you can be' (Faithfulness to God) .. Winning games is a by-product of the pursuit of excellence for Jesus’ sake .. Bring Glory to God by running in such a way to get the Prize."

9- Emphasize People, not Productivity .. "Motivation is based in relationship…capture people’s hearts, coach the heart behind the jersey .. Emphasizing productivity often squashes people and always limits performance .. Emphasizing people build people up and consequently enhances performance."



The points made here by Kessler and Olson are why I have a hard time with the defense of RD always being about his winning (the forgetfulness of a less-than-stellar season notwithstanding).

So the question is, were these things addressed with RD? When the new AD came in, were these issues addressed? Or was he simply not retained and then these issues were cited "post-mortem"?

I completely agree with you, I don't want our Christian witness marred by a coach. Those points are very valid and I agree with them 100%. If that's truly what happened, and it was addressed by someone above RD, and it continued to happen, or it was something SO outrageous that it required no warning or discussion, but simply a firing (this obviously didn't happen since he was never fired), then that's fine.

[SuperJon]

I want to win, but I want to win and do it the right way. There are things more important than winning. I am not about winning at all costs.

The ghost of RD won't leave until because he's still in town, he's still coming to Liberty games, and he's still constantly bringing it up. When he stops doing those things, then we can move on. Most Liberty fans want to completely stop talking about it but Randy and his supporters constantly bring it up because they can't let it go and move on.

[ToTheLeft]

I want to win, but I want to win and do it the right way. There are things more important than winning. I am not about winning at all costs.

The ghost of RD won't leave until because he's still in town, he's still coming to Liberty games, and he's still constantly bringing it up. When he stops doing those things, then we can move on. Most Liberty fans want to completely stop talking about it but Randy and his supporters constantly bring it up because they can't let it go and move on.

Do you really want me to go through and find all the Randy Jokes in threads as far and wide as the courtyard and chapel? Don't act like no one here talks or jokes about him.

And at a school like this, given the mission of our founder, Winning the right way shouldn't be an issue, since we're supposed to be Christian, and that's supposed to be better. Why are we having such a problem with that these days?

[SumItUp]

What is Morgan Hout doing these days?

[SuperJon]

So the question is, were these things addressed with RD? When the new AD came in, were these issues addressed? Or was he simply not retained and then these issues were cited "post-mortem"?

I completely agree with you, I don't want our Christian witness marred by a coach. Those points are very valid and I agree with them 100%. If that's truly what happened, and it was addressed by someone above RD, and it continued to happen, or it was something SO outrageous that it required no warning or discussion, but simply a firing (this obviously didn't happen since he was never fired), then that's fine.

When Jeff Barber was hired in March of 2006, he was told to make a change and get rid of Coach Dunton. However, Barber thought it was not fair to do that after only being on the job a month. Instead, he evaluated the program, gave them a list of things that needed to be changed, and then gave Coach Dunton a season to make the changes. Midway through the 2006-2007 season it was decided that the right amount of progress was not made. When the season was over, the decision to not renew Coach Dunton's contract was made official and public. (So that I can't be accused of this being an original thought, the previous statements were based upon information I gathered from athletic department officials.)

[ToTheLeft]

Assuming those goals were reasonable and clearly stated, then that's as good of a reason as I'm going to get, and that's enough to close it for me, assuming people don't continue to rag on Randy for anything beyond failing to bring the program, on the levels listed by Mr. Barber, to the level it needed to be.

[olldflame]

How in the world are we reaching this assumption that Randy Dunton was this great winner????????

Leaving out his interum year and using the most favorable numbers possible, his overall won-lost record was 62-82 and his much-lauded in conference record was 42-34 (that is not counting 2 losses to Birmingham Southern that are debatable because they were transitioning in to D1 and the BSC). The only coach we have had with a worse record on the D1 level is Mel Hankenson. Our record since his departure is 54-44 overall and 29-21 in conference.

Even if you take checkmate's approach and completely delete the 05-06 season, Randy Dunton had a losing record as the head basketball coach at LU.

[Schfourteenteen]

TTL this takes 5 minutes of research. Want to know everything from the past? The stuff about Randy hasn't changed. Look it up.

Probably the best thread you'll find:
http://www.flamefans.com/forums/viewtop ... f=3&t=3713

Lots of fighting. It was a great day to be a flamefans member.
http://www.flamefans.com/forums/search. ... mit=Search

[LUconn]

actually, I don't see the super secret reason listed in there. But seriously, does anybody know who Brokeback Flamer was?

[ToTheLeft]

TTL this takes 5 minutes of research. Want to know everything from the past? The stuff about Randy hasn't changed. Look it up.

Probably the best thread you'll find:
http://www.flamefans.com/forums/viewtop ... f=3&t=3713

Lots of fighting. It was a great day to be a flamefans member.
http://www.flamefans.com/forums/search. ... mit=Search

Those are the same old reasons. The super secret reasons no one can talk about weren't made public. But I'm over that. It's whatever. If RD didn't reach the goals set for him, and they were reasonable, then that's closure enough for me.

[thepostman]

It's not fair to say something so vague. If he did something, tell us what it is. If he didn't, don't make him look bad by insinuating that he did.

Wow. Didn't expect anyone but me to say that. Props.

oh yes...because you are the only person on this board that can see both sides

[Purple Haize]

I have no problem taking some of the vaguries (or however you spell it) out of the conversation. But before I do, I will say that based on Msgs between me and another member of the board I am suprised that the public and private diatribes they spew are so different. Points you have agreed on in private you continue to dispute in public. Seriously?!
In a broad general sense RD was a victim of transition. Prior to JB arriving, the AD was the Chancellor. Whatever RD wanted, he just went to the Chancellor and got. Any problems that were caused, sideline behavior, academic performance, budget constraints, were "handled". When JB came along that situation changed entirely. At that point RD was either unwilling or unable to adapt to that change. Therefore he was let go.
On the court, there had been a decline in the performance of the team. We did play several "high profile" schools, but while it was said to be done for "prestige' it was for MONEY plain and simple. We also had our fair share of cupcakes, as noted, that we played. Scheduling in scheduling
Off the court, I know that the APR was discussed (or the ARP) This was HUGE! It cost us scholarships. The graduation rate was horrible. The team GPA was abysmal. And discipline problems were increasing. Again, this goes back to the change in regime. What WAS acceptable, was no longer acceptable.
Finally, you can not compare RD to Layer. RD was TWO coaches ago. Even though there are those who wish the RMK regime never happened, it did. It is why you can't "snap shot" coaching. I would say that in January of 09 LU fans were pumped with RMK, now, not so much. Now, Layer, has to deal with what was left behind from the RD years, the RMK experiement and build his own program. After a 5 year, or arguably longer since RD was here for MANY years as an assistant, then it would be proper to compare records.
And finally, for this post, if we are comparing records and success there is only ONE coach who brought LU a Men's Basketball National Championship. You play who you play, you beat who you beat, regardless of how good your conference is!!

[Cider Jim]

there is only ONE coach who brought LU a Men's Basketball National Championship.

Nice Dale Gibson reference there, Haize, circa 1979-80, in the NCCAA. I was actually at that game in Chattanooga!

[olldflame]

We have had one coach who took us to a national championship and one coach who, knowing Doc's goal was to compete at the highest level of college basketball, not the lowest, refused to hang the banner from that championship in the Vines when it was opened. He arrived as a baby faced 26 year old in his first ever head coaching job, and led our program for 16 years, moving from NCCAA to NAIA to D2 to D1, to our first trip to the dance, winning at every level, with an overall record of 259-206. I really get the feeling that Dale Layer can be the man who brings that kind of continuity back to LU basketball. I sure hope so.

I also find it fascinating that not only did Dale Gibson step aside as head coach just a year after winning that NCCAA championship, he stayed on for 2 years as Meyer's assistant.

[Purple Haize]

Cider - W0w. If you are that old you should see if you have fermented!@!! Maybe you and Old Flame were eating popcorn and listening to BJ Thomas cassettes and Randy Stonehill 8 Tracks

[olldflame]

Cider - W0w. If you are that old you should see if you have fermented!@!! Maybe you and Old Flame were eating popcorn and listening to BJ Thomas cassettes and Randy Stonehill 8 Tracks

Truth is stranger than fiction Haize.
The summer after my second year at LU I toured with the King's Players to the West coast and back. I had one of those new-fangled walkman gizmos and wore out BJ Thomas' first Christian album.

[Purple Haize]

Considering my wife got all of her Air Supply, ABBA and 3 Dog Night casettes confiscated by a former women's basketball coach around that time, I am glad no one caught you!!!

[olldflame]

It was all legal Haize. That album was "Home Where I Belong"; the newly-converted BJ's first effort at "christian" pop music which was really more just positive, upbeat songs where the name Jesus was never sung and God is referred to in the second person ("You"). Besides the title song, I remember "Storybook Realities" and "What a Difference You Made In My LIfe". On the same trip we listened to a lot of Keith Green, which at the time was NOT legal at LU soley because of the music, even though the words were so powerful and convicting.