[TDDance234]

This is getting ridiculous.

[Schfourteenteen]

This is getting ridiculous.

Just wait till we finish 4th next year. I doubt we've seen the true annoyance just yet

[ToTheLeft]

Well, there's no NBA talent in this Big South, and we are finishing worse than we did with RD in a league with NBA talent, so until there is either an admission of guilt, or a product on the floor that trumps what RD had, they have no reason to stop bringing it up and making their point. And once the "this program is in the best shape it's been in in a while" and "Ritchie left us with something to build on" nonsense stops, we'll see less of the need for them to defend themselves. Ritchie robbed us blind, and all it's been cover ups and band aids to distract from the fact that the team is not headed in the right direction, and is not returning on the investment put into it by the athletic department.

We have a coach who is committed to the school, but do we have the players, coaches, and administration to get this program back to the point where we're getting into, and being competitive in, NCAA tournament games? I'm not asking this loadedly, I mean it honestly. I think Dale is an NCAA tournament caliber coach. His record speaks for itself. He was a fish out of water trying to win at CSU, yet he managed to do so. But there are still points to be made...

RD had teams losing to Florida with 5 NBA/NBDL players on it by 30 on their home floor.

Dale lost to Clemson, with maybe an NBA guy and a D-Leaguer or two, by 40 on our home floor.

Can you see reasons why people aren't satisfied with the way things are going, compared to the way they've been?

You can even go back to 94, being competitive with UNC in the tournament, do we have anything that remotely resembles that?

If the argument is that times have changed, and that college basketball is different now than it was then, then why have we not changed with it?

The main point...

There is nothing about the state of the program now that points to an improvement over what RD had done, and you guys simply cannot refute that. Any reason for not bringing RD back was either personal, or based on something other than what was done on the floor, and quite frankly, someone either needs to say what those reasons were and admit what it is that he did wrong, so that there can be public closure, or you need to admit that, maybe, we let go of a coach that had us going in the right direction. There's nothing that can be done about it now, but closure is needed.

No one likes the bickering and arguing back and forth. If the reason is that Barber felt like he needed to move on and bring in his own guy, then let that be the reason. I wasn't here, so I honestly don't know what was going on in and around the program at that time. I am looking at the same numbers being presented by everyone else, and it's not fair to pretend like we're better off now than we were. I like Dale, you guys know that, and I believe that he can bring us success, however, I don't like to pretend like we're worlds better than where we were, when we get beat 3 times by a team that EMBARRASSES themself against a SWAC SCHOOL in the PLAY IN GAME, and get beat two times by a team that got Embarrassed by UAB in the NIT.



All this to say, is it really annoyance if they have a point?

[SuperJon]

There is nothing about the state of the program now that points to an improvement over what RD had done, and you guys simply cannot refute that. Any reason for not bringing RD back was either personal, or based on something other than what was done on the floor, and quite frankly, someone either needs to say what those reasons were and admit what it is that he did wrong, so that there can be public closure, or you need to admit that, maybe, we let go of a coach that had us going in the right direction. There's nothing that can be done about it now, but closure is needed.

That first statement is so false it's not even funny but I expect that opinion given your surroundings. This has always been about things that were off the floor and that has been said since day one. No one is going to come out and air the dirty laundry of the program. That's crazy to think that they would and to say that they need to do that is even crazier. One thing that can be said is that we're not having any APR (which has to do with graduation rates and academic progress) issues that force us to lose scholarships anymore. Every player that transferred out under Ritchie left academically eligible. That was not the case in many of the instances under Coach Dunton. Closure is not needed. We had closure on the day that the decision was made. Unfortunately people have an ax to grind and they consistently bring new people in on it to keep the fire going and going and going.

[TylerBakersGonnaBGreat]

Oh Ignorance, Oh Bliss, Oh Barber...




(No Im not back, Just miss all my friends!)

[ToTheLeft]

Thanks for telling me what APR is. Since I don't work for athletics, I wouldn't have known that...

I just don't get it, why do people on this board (CJ is NOTORIOUS for this, and you, SJ, are good at it too) get a free pass to blast RD and make jabs at him, but when people come on and defend him, its "an axe to grind" and a "fire going and going"...

I don't know what else to say, because I guess there are no facts to be had. I really don't have an axe to grind, and NO ONE is forcing information on me. I'm going to hold a degree from this school and I want it to win and be successful. Situations like this cause me to think we're not heading in that direction.

I have heard both sides of this, and there's no truth to be had. That's not closure, Jon. You getting a paycheck from one side of the story puts you in NO position to say there's closure in a situation like this. If he cheated, say he cheated. If he lied, say he lied. And you don't have first hand knowledge of the situation, so your opinion is based on second hand "facts".

I have met Coach D, I have met Coach Layer. I think either one is qualified to run our men's team. However, I think it's ridiculous to pretend like we're better off without Coach D. That's the prevailing attitude. And it's wrong.

The main thing I want to know is what happened. If someone wants to PM it to me, or tell me in person, on facebook, whatever, that's fine. But I have to question what kind of decision was made to not extend his contract when he brought us success, and the lack of success we have had since.

I'm really not trying to just stir the pot, just want to know why all this happened, and where we're going from here.

Sorry guys, I can take this elsewhere if you want, just would like to find something out that never gets addressed.

[SuperJon]

I wasn't explaining APR for you. I knew you knew what that was. I was explaining it because people would come back asking what APR was.

I do have second hand facts on a lot of this but I have also been told first hand by someone who helped Coach Dunton break rules that he helped him do it.

Coach Dunton also lied to me. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but he looked me in the eye and told me he'd never cussed at a game and the next night I heard him drop G-D no more than five feet in front of me in the first five minutes of the game. Once again, not an indictment on his coaching ability, but you said to say how he lied if he lied.

I think Coach Dunton is a good basketball coach. He has proven that by being a high school state coach of the year twice and building an extremely successful AAU program from the ground up that girls travel over two hours to play for. That shows he can coach. However, as much as I respect his coaching ability, I do not respect his tactics off the court and the way he ran the program.

The reason I made the comment about "an axe to grind" is because people come out of nowhere to constantly bring this issue up. We were completely fine talking about next year, or in this case a prospect for next year, and a supporter of the former staff has to come back and bring his name up yet again.

[ToTheLeft]

That's good enough for me. I'm not sold one way or another, but that's your stance, and I can't refute it since you had enough to come out and say it.

I'll let this go, since I don't have anything to prove one way or another. I just wanna see us succeed.

[SuperJon]

I'll let this go, since I don't have anything to prove one way or another. I just wanna see us succeed.

I just want all of that junk to go away so that we can focus on who we have now. The past is the past and nothing can change it. Let's support the current staff and players as much as we can and stop focusing so much time on former coaches. Like you, I just want us to succeed and succeed in a way that's true to who Liberty is.

[Purple Haize]

Lefty - It HAS been addressed ad nauseum.
A couple of points
1. In your first posts you said we had a coach that was committed to the school but then question if we have the coaches in place to turn the program around. Only to state in your second post that you think Layer is capable of leading this program. Which is it?
2. You are only comparing two games: LU v FL and LU v Clem. The fact remains that BOTH games were loses and we were not competitive in either one. It would be better to compare several seasons of games not just select 2. We also had some horrible loses and games that were too close.
3. The APR was already mentioned. That is/was/and always will be the measuring stick for college athletics in the near future. We lost scholarships due to ours under the RD tenure
4. You also are trying to compare a current coach with someone who coached two "regimes' ago. By that regime RD should be compared with JM and RMK with MH. As for saying the program was left in "great shape" that is the canned response by ANY AD in the country when a situation like this happens.
5. RD did lead us to the NCAA Tourney and there is no denying, and I dont think anyone has, that is a HUGE feather in our caps. But by using your own mearuse (LU UNC) we were MORE competitive against UNC who had MORE NBA players then we were with St Joe.

If you notice I am not ripping RD just trying to give you the "Reader's Digest" version of events to give you "closure". If you need more info, reading the old posts may help or msg those of us who were there, since you stated you were not. Hope that helps

[ToTheLeft]

Lefty - It HAS been addressed ad nauseum.
A couple of points
1. In your first posts you said we had a coach that was committed to the school but then question if we have the coaches in place to turn the program around. Only to state in your second post that you think Layer is capable of leading this program. Which is it?
2. You are only comparing two games: LU v FL and LU v Clem. The fact remains that BOTH games were loses and we were not competitive in either one. It would be better to compare several seasons of games not just select 2. We also had some horrible loses and games that were too close.
3. The APR was already mentioned. That is/was/and always will be the measuring stick for college athletics in the near future. We lost scholarships due to ours under the RD tenure
4. You also are trying to compare a current coach with someone who coached two "regimes' ago. By that regime RD should be compared with JM and RMK with MH. As for saying the program was left in "great shape" that is the canned response by ANY AD in the country when a situation like this happens.
5. RD did lead us to the NCAA Tourney and there is no denying, and I dont think anyone has, that is a HUGE feather in our caps. But by using your own mearuse (LU UNC) we were MORE competitive against UNC who had MORE NBA players then we were with St Joe.

If you notice I am not ripping RD just trying to give you the "Reader's Digest" version of events to give you "closure". If you need more info, reading the old posts may help or msg those of us who were there, since you stated you were not. Hope that helps

I really didn't want to keep discussing this, but there are some things I feel are unbalanced...

First of all...

1) Dale is capable of leading the program, and I "believe" he will, but the question is, is everyone on board, and is the program going to succeed as it has in years past.

2) I over simplified, I wasn't anchoring my post on that point. Your point is valid, but I don't feel like it speaks to the heart of any issue... my point was, we used to play the best to try and be the best, and we were equally competitive, if not more competitive, than we are now against less than the best. Look at what Arkansas-PB did. They played a BRUTAL schedule, and it got them ready to run thru the SWAC all the way to the Dance.

3) The APR isn't something I fully understand, so I won't speak to it. However, that's never the point people bring up when they talk about Coach D on this forum, at least not since I've been on here.

4) Why do we condone "canned responses"? Is "canned responses" a Christian way to lie? The program was in turmoil, and the statement needed to be one of confidence that DL can return us to where we were. Not that we're in great shape when we're not. As for comparing coaches, the Ritchie "flash in the pan" is not enough to separate Dale from Randy. We're comparing coaches against coaches. Ritchie brought us ESPN games and flashing lights, and then chaos. Dale has brought us some hope of stability, and at this point, we're just hoping to see wins and success, and I believe he can, and hope and would like to see that come to fruition.

5) And that would speak to "Why was JM" let go, and that has been discussed, and there is more closure on that than there is with RD...

It's whatever, there won't be closure. It's like trying to get Dems and Repubs to agree on health care.

[jcmanson]

well that was some nice reading this morning...

[jcmanson]

I think we can all come to the agreement that in retrospect JB made a bad hire in RM, and that has set us back about 2 years. Now we just have to give DL 2-3 years, at the minimum, to see if he can get us to where we were. If he can get us there and even advance us further, then JB’s initial decision can be “righted.” If not, then we can come after JB for his MBB hiring failures.

[LUconn]

2) I over simplified, I wasn't anchoring my post on that point. Your point is valid, but I don't feel like it speaks to the heart of any issue... my point was, we used to play the best to try and be the best, and we were equally competitive, if not more competitive, than we are now against less than the best. Look at what Arkansas-PB did. They played a BRUTAL schedule, and it got them ready to run thru the SWAC all the way to the Dance.

I'd say more often than not, playing that type of schedule makes your team feel like a bunch of losers and affects them the rest of the season. They'll have little to no confidence. Or else everybody would load up on those games to make a ton of money AND be better off. But instead there's a fine line of scheduling to play money games and not break your team's morale.

3) The APR isn't something I fully understand, so I won't speak to it. However, that's never the point people bring up when they talk about Coach D on this forum, at least not since I've been on here.

Too many players didn't graduate due to being stupid or transferring so we lost scholarships. It was a very big deal during BeTray's first year and we talked about it quite a bit.

I think we can all come to the agreement that in retrospect JB made a bad hire in RM, and that has set us back about 2 years. Now we just have to give DL 2-3 years, at the minimum, to see if he can get us to where we were. If he can get us there and even advance us further, then JB’s initial decision can be “righted.” If not, then we can come after JB for his MBB hiring failures.

I still contend that BeTray was the man for the job and was really on track to take this program to new heights. This year's team was going to be sick but since it didn't materialize we like to pick it apart and make it look like things were going down hill. I think it's funny how we treat last year after all of the chaos of the offseason.

[jcmanson]

I still contend that BeTray was the man for the job and was really on track to take this program to new heights. This year's team was going to be sick but since it didn't materialize we like to pick it apart and make it look like things were going down hill. I think it's funny how we treat last year after all of the chaos of the offseason.

But that all comes back to the boss, Mr. Barber. The fact remains that the 09-10 team was worse than the 06-07 team. Sure RM was taking us to new heights, but he left us during a time of new depths. So, when factored all together he was not the man for the job. If he was, he’d still be here, Seth would be here, we’d be dancing this weekend, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Edit: I don’t want anyone to think I’m dogging on JB because I love the guy, no homo. He’s by far the best AD we’ve ever had.

[Th3rd]

i dont think you can call for JB's head over bad MBB coaches... i mean he has kept one of the best Football coaches that we have ever had, he has kept one of the best WBB coaches, he has kept one of the best VB coaches... and yet since he didnt give a contract extension to RD and then made what looked to be a good choice in RM (at the time) and then when RM left got another great coach in DL... i mean i just cant see how that is grounds to say JB is a horrible AD... IMHO

[BJWilliams]

And add to it that he brought in a women's soccer coach that brought about a meteoric turnaround this season AND established two new intercollegiate sports on the mountain

[olldflame]

How was the 06-07 team better than 09-10 manson?

14-17 overall compared to 15-16.................advantage 09-10
8-6 in conference compared to 10-8............. push
both teams lost in the first round of the BSC tourney...push
The 06-07 team lost to D2 Barton (yeah, I know, they were D2 national champions) advantage 09-10

The 06-07 team was talented and experienced and underachieved, plain and simple; and some of the players on that team contributed to us losing scholarships the next 2 years. The 09-10 team was made up of freshmen, sophomores and KO, plus had 2 major injuries to their most experienced players. I think you can make a good argument that they overachieved.

[ATrain]

And add to it that he brought in a women's soccer coach that brought about a meteoric turnaround this season AND established two new intercollegiate sports on the mountain

Since we're talking about all the great coaches JB has brought in, lets add tennis to that as well.

[flamesfilmguy]

really? did we really take all that and move it into its own thread to continue? you people are ridiculous.

[LUconn]

You can't suppress it, you can only hope to contain it.

[Rocketfan]

I honestly can't believe i just read people compliment an AD on hiring a VB coach and Womens soccer coach.....These sports generate less than 0 revenue and no one cares about either.

Then you compliment him on "retaining" a FB coach and a WBB coach.....unless JB personally wrote the check from his bank account you have lost your mind. He simply approached the hire ups " can i him this?" and got a yes.....now lets all do the riverdance in his honor.

[Schfourteenteen]

really? did we really take all that and move it into its own thread to continue? you people are ridiculous.

Cant leave it in the prospect thread - infringes on a HS kid. Cant delete it - suppresses opinions and reduces my post count.

They should just sticky it and send all RD talk there. It might die when LU wins a championship or RD goes back to coaching DI. That's actually a great poll quesiton. Which happens first?

[Th3rd]

I honestly can't believe i just read people compliment an AD on hiring a VB coach and Womens soccer coach.....These sports generate less than 0 revenue and no one cares about either.

Then you compliment him on "retaining" a FB coach and a WBB coach.....unless JB personally wrote the check from his bank account you have lost your mind. He simply approached the hire ups " can i him this?" and got a yes.....now lets all do the riverdance in his honor.

the reason i bolded this was because in saying that you just completed my argument. thank you. saying you want to fire the AD because he made a bad hire is wrong by the logic you use as well. and can we blame the AD for not retaining a coach, again I would say by your logic that would be a no. By your logic the AD does nothing but go to the higher ups and ask permission to keep them. So ultimately all hirings, firings, and all such things should be blamed on the "higher ups" not the AD

[LUconn]

That's what an LU AD was before Barber.