[matshark]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05 ... er-murder/

So apparently this guy was one of the most prominent abortion providers in the country.

(Edit: Yeah, I'm not letting you put that junk on here. - Jonathan)

[SuperJon]

You can't say that someone got what was coming when he was brutally murdered. That's just wrong. You may have disagreed with his philosophy, but using the Bible to justify someone you disagree with being murdered is taking it one step too far in my opinion. If someone else wants to tell me I'm wrong, they can let you know and you can repost everything. For now though, I'm not letting that on here. You've taken your crap one step too far for me.

[DeathCab4LU]

Idk what was posted but from the sound of it I agree with Super Jon

[Ed Dantes]

It is wrong to kill someone.

[LUconn]

I read this article and thought to myself, now there's a mixed bag of emotions. My second thought was, what the heck kind of a church was he going to?

[Cider Jim]

Lutheran

His wife was in the choir when it happened. She's now a widow with 4 children & 10 grandchildren.

[ATrain]

Killing people outside the bounds of self-defense or via court-ordered death penalty is wrong, period.

I know this dude killed thousands of unborn and/or nearly born babies, but unless he is executed through due process of law (as in, US/state/local laws, not vigilante/activist taking it into their own hands), it was wrong to kill him.

[4everfsu]

I don't condone his killing but I am not going to shed any tears over it. I am more sorry about the 60K abortions he did while here on earth. As someone else had mentioned earlier a late term abortion was carried out yesterday.

[Ed Dantes]

The murder of an abortion doctor helps galvanize the very movement the murderer tried to suppress.

[matshark]

I don't condone his killing but I am not going to shed any tears over it. I am more sorry about the 60K abortions he did while here on earth. As someone else had mentioned earlier a late term abortion was carried out yesterday.

and this is exactly the sentiment that i expressed and SJ removed.

i said im not going to say its a good thing he was killed, but i certainly won't feel bad for him.

i then listed three biblical references showing that God says the blood of the wickd will be on their hands.

so who's wrong here SJ? God for saying the wicked will get their reward, or me for posting God saying that?

and on a side note, that's two families of abortion providers that have had tragedies in the past couple months. one was the family on a flight to a ski trip and the other was this. I don't think you can say that God's wrath is not involved here.

[SuperJon]

I sneezed last week and my back popped and it hurt. I think that was God's wrath for me telling you that you're an absolute idiot.

[ATrain]

I don't condone his killing but I am not going to shed any tears over it. I am more sorry about the 60K abortions he did while here on earth. As someone else had mentioned earlier a late term abortion was carried out yesterday.

and this is exactly the sentiment that i expressed and SJ removed.

i said im not going to say its a good thing he was killed, but i certainly won't feel bad for him.

i then listed three biblical references showing that God says the blood of the wickd will be on their hands.

so who's wrong here SJ? God for saying the wicked will get their reward, or me for posting God saying that?

and on a side note, that's two families of abortion providers that have had tragedies in the past couple months. one was the family on a flight to a ski trip and the other was this. I don't think you can say that God's wrath is not involved here.

Bro, I don't think God's wrath is involved here. I know many theology majors/professors/doctorates that will tell you that tragedies are just the result of living in a sinful world and not God's direct judgment on anyone for anything. That applies to this shooting, Hurricane Katrina hitting New Orleans, the 9-11 terrorist attacks, the tsunami, and any other natural or man-made disaster you want to mention.

SJ-seriously, do you really need to resort to personal attacks? I mean, its one thing to disagree with what he's saying and have an open-minded discussion, its another thing to act like an absolute jerk .

[SuperJon]

Sorry, I just have a short leash when I've told a guy twice already to keep that stuff off of here.

[Kolzilla41]

God must have been so happy this happened that the Dow surges 221 points today....(totally sarcastic). I think it is really ridiculous that this happened. It does absolutely nothing to help our side of the argument.

[4everfsu]

Was Gal. 6:7,8 one of the verses you used Matshark?

[scuzdriver]

I have to admit my first thought was about the kind of church he went to as well. I guess he found out what God thinks about abortion.

[matshark]

Was Gal. 6:7,8 one of the verses you used Matshark?

you're a smart guy fsu...i'll leave it at that.

A-Train, to assume that God is not responsible for anything that happens, is to remove from him his absolute control over the universe - and with it, essentially his omnipotence and ultimately his very God-hood.

it's one thing to say God does not cause sin, quite another to say he doesn't punish people for their actions. let's ask Pharoh in Egypt if God's wrath wasn't involved there. what is the dividing line from where someone says something is an unfortunate series of events to where it's actual punishment? God says the sins fo the fathers are even taken out on their children to 3 and 4 generations.

Exodus 20:5-6
"...for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Also, when it comes to disasters, let's not forget Jonah. The man ended up in a fish because he didn't want to warn Ninevah about a coming disaster because of God's wrath. Let's not forget Tyre and Sidon. Gone!

Sorry, bro, but i HAVE to disagree with you on this. We are ALL responsible for our choices and actions in life, and we WILL be judged for them. Am I condoning murdering people who commit abortion? No. But like I said, you can't really say they weren't asking for it by destroying thousands of the unborn created in God's image. Cain was cursed for killing his brother Abel (one person) in cold blood. How much more for killing the innocent unborn - thousands of them.

---------------------

SJ, you can't tell me that you believe abortion is murder, that you believe in an all powerful God that judges sin - um, that's kind of the POINT of the cross - and that you don't believe a murderer of the unborn being killed is NOT God's judgement in anyway. Do you really want me to bring in examples of people in the OT that died as a result of God punishing them for their actions?

Speaking of Cain: Genesis 4:10 - "The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground."

Psalm 106:38 - "They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood."

Feel free to revel in the "God is Love" part of God. Don't forget that he is a vengeful God with a terrible wrath who will one day wipe out pretty much everybody on the planet. (That's in the back of the book if you haven't read it yet) Throughout history God has punished those who have shed innocent blood - yet you want to say that an abortion doctor being killed is somehow NOT punishment for his actions?

My faith in God precludes me from believing in co-incidence. So chalk this guy getting offed IN CHURCH as an ironic co-incidence if you want. I believe otherwise.

I know, it might be uncomfortable to think that God might actually *gasp* punish people for what they do, just like the Bible says he does. But don't forget, your touchy-feely God also drove people out of the temple... with a WHIP! Let me guess, that wasn't any type of punishment either, right SJ? Yeah, you're right. He was just being friendly and saying hi. silly me...

Oh, and SJ, when it comes to God and the Nature of God - feel free to use, you know, BIBLICAL references instead of what you THINK.

[flamesfilmguy]

Mat- Do you think God sends someone to commit a sin like say... Murder? to punish someone else for their sins? that is what you are implying. I'm keeping my opinion on this but I was curious to what you thought about that.

[ATrain]

Yes, God will judge us for our sins, and we will have to live with the consequences of our choices here on earth until our time is up. Yes, what goes around will come around (eventually, most of the time anyway).

There is also a difference between the time of God's prophets walking the earth professing judgment on nations and now. When was the last time fire specifically rained down from heaven to smite a nation? Umm, here's a hint, not since the Old Testament.

I am not saying God's not omnipotent, but since Jesus ascended back into Heaven after being resurrected, things were predicted to get worse just as a natural result of living in a sinful world that is spiralling toward complete entropy. Matthew 24:4-8 explains these things when Jesus talks about wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc...Jesus isn't saying that its a result of God's judgment for anything specific, just its a result of living in a sinful world heading towards the end.

To say that this dude's murder was a specific judgment upon this dude for murdering others is completely ridiculous. That would mean that God made one man, the murderer, sin in order to carry out His judgment, and a righteous God does not make a man sin.

[4everfsu]

We can disagree on this or that but two things are for sure. One, this abortion doctor is dead, second is if he was not a believer in Jesus Christ before his death, I would say he is now. All be it too late to do him any good.

[flamesfilmguy]

To say that this dude's murder was a specific judgment upon this dude for murdering others is completely ridiculous. That would mean that God made one man, the murderer, sin in order to carry out His judgment, and a righteous God does not make a man sin.

This is what i was getting at with my previous post.

[ATrain]

We can disagree on this or that but two things are for sure. One, this abortion doctor is dead, second is if he was not a believer in Jesus Christ before his death, I would say he is now. All be it too late to do him any good.

I will agree with you on both these points.

[matshark]

Mat- Do you think God sends someone to commit a sin like say... Murder? to punish someone else for their sins? that is what you are implying. I'm keeping my opinion on this but I was curious to what you thought about that.

Good thing I'm not a Calvinist or I'd break out some verses trying to prove that God creates people expressly so that they will sin.

Does cause sin? No.
Does he allow sin to happen? Yes.
Does he accomplish what he desires DESPITE sin? Yes.
Does he allow sinners to be a part of his judgment on other sinners? Yes.

Do I think God told this guy to go kill this abortion doctor? No.
(although it wouldn't be the first time in history that God told somebody to go kill somebody else)
Do I think God was shocked by this guy killing the doctor? No.
Do i think he allowed it to happen in accordance to his plan? Absolutely.
Do I think he allowed this doctor to die a violent death because of his actions in murdering the unborn? You'd better believe it.

Matt 26:52 - "...for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

So, Yes A-Train. You are correct.
"God will judge us for our sins, and we will have to live with the consequences of our choices here on earth until our time is up. Yes, what goes around will come around (eventually, most of the time anyway)."

Well, we all know the circumstances of the fire and brimstone. That probably won't happen now - although if I saw San Fran on the evening news... - but Revelation says the heavens will burn, 1/3 of the water will turn into blood, and 7 bowls of wrath will be poured out on the earth. That's certainly not OT - that is stuff that WILL happen in the future.

Yes things will get worse, but you can't say that people don't bear the consequences for their actions here and now on this earth. And who is ultimately giving them the consequences for their actions? (insert answer here)

consequences for actions = judgement

if (name inserted here) is holding people accountable for their actions by giving them consequences, then he is judging them.

Further, even though the world is spinning into entropy (as you so eloquently put it) God does not give up control of the universe. Even the very spinning into entropy is still in accordance to his plan and he is allowing it - although he is not directly causing it. Further, he is using said spiraling to accomplish his plan, despite the the spiraling.

[flamesfilmguy]

I don't disagree with you on any of that mat but i think the way you worded it earlier made is sound like the man who was committing the murder was somehow sent by God to do so.

[ATrain]

Further, even though the world is spinning into entropy (as you so eloquently put it) God does not give up control of the universe. Even the very spinning into entropy is still in accordance to his plan and he is allowing it - although he is not directly causing it. Further, he is using said spiraling to accomplish his plan, despite the the spiraling.

Thank you, thank you, thank you...that was my entire point, God is not directly causing murders, hurricanes, whatever...until Revelation when He burns the whole place down to set up His kingdom.

FFG hit the nail on the head, you just made it sound like God sent the murderer to carry out a direct judgment. And yes, God did directly tell people to kill other people before, and if God says it then its not murder-its why we're able to morally have the death penalty, however as you stated God didn't tell the murderer to kill the abortion doctor or anyone, so therefore it was not a direct judgment.