[newandimproved]

^^^

uh, it should be noted that Realist is from Winthrop

hence: "Winthrop Fan" in his avatar.

and I don't believe him to be stupid. that was more than a little over the top. You can disagree w/ people w/ out resorting to personal attacks.

Regardless of where he's from, he's using his irresponsibility as an argument for taking away my rights.

so with this logic...since 21 is the legal age to drink and it is my right to drink...should LU allow me to do so???

LU has certain rules and standards for their campus..this is one of them...many rights are somewhat forfeited when you become a student at Liberty...just the way it is in life man...get over it...they are not truly infringing on anybody's rights...

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

As a student, Im strongly against allowing guns on campus. LUPD already has lockers to store guns in. LUPD is already a visible presence all around campus.

This rule would please about 50 southern hicks who would rather be out shooting than doing homework, and tick off the rest of the student body. The school can go ahead and allow concealed carry on campus, but it wouldnt last long. The student body wouldnt stand behind this, and yes there are alot of southerners at LU, but theres alot more people with common sense than those wanting to go to class with a gun.

And the advocates on the board for allowing concealed carry on campus, first im not trying to call you hicks in the above statements, so dont get ticked at that. However, when it comes down to it, your telling me that if your in a class and a guy walks in with a gun to start shooting everyone, your first instinct is going to be your gun and start shooting at him? Not if your trying to protect yourself. Painting a target on yourself like that is not the first step at protection or safety.

When you weigh the positives and negatives of this idea, the negatives far outweigh the few positives there would be. And asforme, Im sure you would be logical and have common sense about using the gun. The problem is most of the students on this campus who I know who would have a gun would not be logical or use common sense.

Even more, about the safes in a room, the problem with the idea that LU students cant even remember to shut or lock their dorm door, how are they going to be held reliable to ensuring the safe is shut and locked? Other than requiring the RA to check it consistently, there would be no way. Thats too much of a hassle to RA's who are already to loaded down with responsibilities.

I just dont see concealed carry having any sort of real positives for the school or student body.

[asforme]

^^^

uh, it should be noted that Realist is from Winthrop

hence: "Winthrop Fan" in his avatar.

and I don't believe him to be stupid. that was more than a little over the top. You can disagree w/ people w/ out resorting to personal attacks.

Regardless of where he's from, he's using his irresponsibility as an argument for taking away my rights.

so with this logic...since 21 is the legal age to drink and it is my right to drink...should LU allow me to do so???

LU has certain rules and standards for their campus..this is one of them...many rights are somewhat forfeited when you become a student at Liberty...just the way it is in life man...get over it...they are not truly infringing on anybody's rights...

I believe first and foremost in property rights. And this land is property of LU and one of their conditional requirements for being here is that I not carry. I respect that, however I am also working to change that. The administration has been very receptive and gracious enough to take it before the board of trustees. My discussions here are simply to use facts to try to persuade those who are opposed to the idea. I do not contest LU's right to attempt to restrict guns, but I believe it is an unwise decision because the only people affected by the rule are the law abiding citizens, not the criminals.

If anyone needs more evidence that criminals don't care what LUs rules are and are likely already carrying guns:
http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx. ... -0210.html


DANVILLE -- Police say a Danville Community College student seen carrying a gun on campus has been arrested.

The campus was placed on lockdown shortly after the incident was reported around 8:15 a.m. today, and it remained on lockdown until college officials were sure the suspect was in custody.

City police say 18-year-old Bruce Wayne Elder was carrying two guns when he was apprehended on a street near the college. He faces charges of two counts of possession of a firearm by a convicted felon and possession of alcohol by a minor.

It's illegal for this man to even own a gun, much less carry it, and even less carry it where "campus rules" forbid it. Yet he does so anyway. These rules have no effect on anybody but law abiding citizens.

[Baldspot]

91 posts so far but vicarious liability and the increased rates to find an insurance carrier to cover the exposure is as far as you need to go on this subject before realizing its a bad idea.

I love guns, just not the risk exposure.

Funny how that isn't an issue for any of the other local businesses where I carry all the time. When was the last time you heard of a mass shooting in walmart? Blue Ridge Community College seems to be able to find insurance, as do all the schools in Utah.

My homeowners insurance never asked if I had guns, but they did ask if I had a pool or a trampoline. Funny, we have several pools here, and we're building a freaking ski slope.

But if I recall correctly Virginia Tech did just spend quite a bit of money to try and preempt some lawsuits. If anything is a liability it is enforced victimization.

The vicarious liability and joint and several statutes also apply but a business takes on a greater duty when it posts a "come one, come all" sign to gun owners causing financial damages to be significantly higher for businesses taking on the additional risk.

Imagine LU's pro-gun policy splashed on the big screen in front of a jury that is watching a grieving mother who just lost her child.

[Fumblerooskies]

This topic should make for a VERY interesting general faculty meeting on Monday...and the Chancellor usually attends those and asks for questions.

[asforme]

your telling me that if your in a class and a guy walks in with a gun to start shooting everyone, your first instinct is going to be your gun and start shooting at him? Not if your trying to protect yourself. Painting a target on yourself like that is not the first step at protection or safety.

First of all, simply allowing licensed concealed carry on campus greatly reduces the chances of violence in the first place. Every single mass shooting has occurred in a "gun free zone". Criminals and psychos want unarmed targets, they are unlikely to go somewhere where it is possible that they will be stopped before achieving their goal. The one attempted mass shooting at New Life church in Colorado was stopped before any innocents were killed by a concealed carry permit holder.

When you weigh the positives and negatives of this idea, the negatives far outweigh the few positives there would be.

Aside from dorm specific issues, which I agree are complicated, what negatives are there. There is an argument for keeping guns out of dorms at least temporarily until a good solution for safe storage is reached, but I have not heard any logic behind the prohibition against commuter students, faculty and staff.

And asforme, Im sure you would be logical and have common sense about using the gun. The problem is most of the students on this campus who I know who would have a gun would not be logical or use common sense.

What irresponcible students do you know that have their concealed carry permits? Getting a concealed carry permit requires going through quite a bit of bureaucracy. Not something the typical party college student is going to go through. About 1% of the population has concealed carry permit and they are statistically less likely to commit a crime than a police officer. We trust LUPD armed on campus, there is no reason to not trust a group of people who are less likely to be irresponsible or criminal.

Even more, about the safes in a room, the problem with the idea that LU students cant even remember to shut or lock their dorm door, how are they going to be held reliable to ensuring the safe is shut and locked? Other than requiring the RA to check it consistently, there would be no way. Thats too much of a hassle to RA's who are already to loaded down with responsibilities.

Agreed, safe storage in the dorms is complicated. But being that you must be over 21 to get a permit, and then only 1% of people over 21 have a permit, it is unlikely there will be many in the dorms who would even have their concealed carry permit. And if the administration isn't comfortable with allowing guns to be stored in the dorms, allowing commuters, faculty and staff members to carry concealed would still provide a substantial increase in campus safety.

I just dont see concealed carry having any sort of real positives for the school or student body.

I'll bet the 4 students who were sexually assaulted on campus last year wish they could have had a chance to defend themselves. I also bet students and parents of students at VT did not see any real positives either. We should not wait for a tragedy to happen before we take action to keep the university safe. Look into what has happened in the 40 states that have adopted shall-issue concealed carry. The deterrent effect alone has dramatically reduced crime in those states, and that trend has continued to the Universities that now allow concealed carry.

[Realist]

I wasn't talking just one party, more like hundreds over the span of college. But don't drop artillery shells in hollowed out beer bottles on a side street next to campus. I decided it wasn't one of my brighter moves after shrapnel cuts in jeans and 8 cop cars were looking for me and a few others.

And you're one who we should be listening to about campus policy? Because of your stupidity you are trying to take away the ability for responsible citizens to protect themselves and their families? I do not go to stupid parties, I go to class, work and then I go home to my wife and son. And when our school is a giant collection of evangelicals and a prime target for terrorism or other acts of violence I want to be able to do what I can to make it home so I can continue to provide for my wife and son. It's not all about you and your college party experience. Honestly I hope you are arrested and soon. Of course, someone with as little regard for safety and the law as you do probably wouldn't be affected by the removal of your legal right to carry a gun. If you wanted to, you would do so anyway just like any other irresponsible criminal.

Irresponsible criminals are unaffected by this weak rule. They don't care what the rules are because they do what they want anyway. Responsible citizens who have gone through the bureaucracy of getting a concealed carry permit are the only ones who respect and are affected by this rule at all. And they have every right to provide for their own protection. The supreme court ruled that police are not responsible to protect citizens. With that precedent, removing a citizens ability to protect themselves is a death sentence should anyone with disregard for the rules decide to commit an act of violence.

I cannot believe your absolute selfishness that you would have the University strip me of the right to protect myself and ensure that I can continue to provide for my family so you can attempt to mitigate the dangers of your reckless lifestyle. Some of us are here to learn and our safety should be priority over your parties.

Uh, I haven't checked this thread in ages, but anyways, I thought it was pretty clear I wasn't exactly endorsing those actions which were 7 years ago. All I was saying is that most college students do pretty stupid things from time to time and adding guns to the equations probably isn't a good move.

But thanks for calling me a criminal. I was thinking more along the lines of immature college student way back when. And congrats on taking care of your family, I do just fine with mine as well, without pounding my chest about guns and defending against college age hooligans coming to get me

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

asforme, are you a student at Liberty?

Do you live in the dorms?

If the people with permits already carry around their guns as you say they do, then why do they need a rule?

Also, if they already carry around their guns, they arent law abiding citizens, and using the same tick poor argument development you use, if they arent responsible enough to obey the law, they are responsible enough to use the gun. And, if they are going against the law to do this, then they are criminals.

You didnt refute the fact that other than the 1% of people who want this, the other 99% of campus will be against this.

[ToTheLeft]

asforme, are you a student at Liberty?

Do you live in the dorms?

If the people with permits already carry around their guns as you say they do, then why do they need a rule?

Also, if they already carry around their guns, they arent law abiding citizens, and using the same tick poor argument development you use, if they arent responsible enough to obey the law, they are responsible enough to use the gun. And, if they are going against the law to do this, then they are criminals.

You didnt refute the fact that other than the 1% of people who want this, the other 99% of campus will be against this.

You don't legalize something just because people already do it illegally. Let's take having sex out of the Liberty Way, too, since people already do that. Let's take drug use, profanity use, and curfew out of the Liberty Way, people break those, too. There just isn't enough crime on this campus to justify allowing students to carry guns.

As someone close to this situation told me, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I seriously doubt this will get past the board.

[newandimproved]

well drug use is illegal already...but the rest are good examples....

just because something is legal does not mean liberty has to allow it on their campuw

[asforme]

asforme, are you a student at Liberty?

Do you live in the dorms?

If the people with permits already carry around their guns as you say they do, then why do they need a rule?

Also, if they already carry around their guns, they arent law abiding citizens, and using the same tick poor argument development you use, if they arent responsible enough to obey the law, they are responsible enough to use the gun. And, if they are going against the law to do this, then they are criminals.

You didnt refute the fact that other than the 1% of people who want this, the other 99% of campus will be against this.

I never said permit holders already carry on campus, if they do I am not aware of it, I certainly do not. What I said is that students (commuters) who have their permits already carry off campus. There is no reason to suspect they would be more of a danger on campus. I did say that criminals already carry guns wherever they please, just like Cho did at Virginia Tech, it is those criminals whom I should be able to defend myself against, but currently because of my respect for the rules, I cannot.

And I said nothing about the % of people who would support it, I said 1% of citizens have a concealed carry permit in the US. Far more than that support having them because of the deterrent effect that concealed carry has, even if they choose not to get a permit themselves. Since 1988 when Florida became the first state to instate shall-issue concealed carry permits, more and more states have been adopting that approach. Crime has dropped in those states dramatically and much faster than it did in states that did not adopt shall-issue. And no state has ever rescinded shall-issue concealed carry. If 99% of the population was against it surely at least one state would have gotten rid of their concealed carry laws, but none have.

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

You didnt answer my question though, are you a student at Liberty?

Nor did you answer my second question, if so do you live in the dorms?

[asforme]

I am a part time student and full time employee at LU. I have not lived in the dorm and as such have only made some broad suggestions for possibilities of safe storage, but as I said, if the Administration, who I'm sure know more about dorm life than I do, are not comfortable with guns in the dorms that is certainly their decision. Allowing state permitted commuters, faculty and staff members to carry would certainly be a big step in the right direction.

[SuperJon]

Allow faculty and staff.


Don't allow students.


I'm done.

[asforme]

Allow faculty and staff.

Don't allow students.

I'm done.

Why not commuter students?

[Kolzilla41]

Allow faculty and staff.

Don't allow students.

I'm done.

Why not commuter students?

100% agreement here SJ. as for Commuter students, still too many to control and they adhere less to the Liberty way than on campus students.

[asforme]

100% agreement here SJ. as for Commuter students, still too many to control and they adhere less to the Liberty way than on campus students.

They need to be controlled? The state permitted commuters who would be affected by this rule are allowed to carry in Wal-Mart, grocery stores and wherever else and are not "controlled".

[Kolzilla41]

That is a blanket rule by the state. The commuter population is almost half of Liberty's enrollment. I think there are too many of those to verify and if on campus can't have them, then why commuters? I don't mean they cannot have guns but they should not be able to carry on campus.

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

What is the benefit of a student getting to have a gun in class?

Why dont you consider airlines. Yeah, we would all be safe from a terrorist hijacking our plane if we had a gun. The airlines dont allow permit carrying gun holders to carry, for the same reasons we should not allow students to have gun. There is no positive to it, other than to show it off.

Im not opposed to a commuter having a gun kept in their apartment, they are allowed to. But what logical reason is there for them to be given the right to bring that gun to class? its just idiotic

[asforme]

That is a blanket rule by the state. The commuter population is almost half of Liberty's enrollment. I think there are too many of those to verify and if on campus can't have them, then why commuters? I don't mean they cannot have guns but they should not be able to carry on campus.

I'm still confused about your concerns, could you elaborate? What needs to be "verified"? We are only talking about allowing people who have already gotten a concealed carry permit from the state to carry, not all 3500 commuters. And they have been verified by the state, when issuing a concealed carry permit, applicants are required to take a class and are subjected to extensive background checks at federal and state levels, and they even ask for every residence in the last 5 years so they do state level checks in those places. If any false information is found on the application, or any crime except for traffic offenses is found you don't get it. The state does an excellent job of "verfying" applicants. Police are 3x as likely to commit a crime as a permit holder, so obviously the verification measures work. What more needs to be done?

What is the benefit of a student getting to have a gun in class?

Why dont you consider airlines. Yeah, we would all be safe from a terrorist hijacking our plane if we had a gun. The airlines dont allow permit carrying gun holders to carry, for the same reasons we should not allow students to have gun. There is no positive to it, other than to show it off.

Im not opposed to a commuter having a gun kept in their apartment, they are allowed to. But what logical reason is there for them to be given the right to bring that gun to class? its just idiotic

Would have it been idiotic for students at VT to have had some alternative to cowering and hoping not to die? Would it have been idiotic for the 4 students who were sexually assaulted on LU campus last year to have been able to fend off their attackers? If nothing happens, then it is never seen and nobody except the person carrying it ever knows it's there, kind of like a fire alarm that nobody notices on the ceiling. But if something happens, everybody will be glad it was there.

[newandimproved]

i still don't understand why you believe because this is legal if you are 21 and have proper permit why this should mean LU should allow it...that means nothing...LU takes quite a few "rights" away when you become a student....suck it up dude....LU is one of the safest campuses of this size in the country from my understanding...I am not anti-gun at all...but if you can't let go of your gun for a few hours while on LU's campus, you have paranoia issues and need to take a deep breath

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

Theres also other alternatives.

Not to lessen what happened to the four girls at LU last year, but this becoming more a debate and needs to be brought up...

First off, odds are those four girls wouldnt have a gun on them even if they were allowed to carry a gun.

Second, there are things such as not taking the creepy way back to the circle that goes behind vines and theres no one around. At night, your just asking to get raped if you go back there alone.

It comes down to the idea of girls not walking alone at night on campus, regardless of the fact this is a christian university. Take the bus, or call LUPD they will take you back protected free of charge.

When your kid is being picked on by a bully, you teach him how to handle it, you dont just say well heres a gun, this should scare him off.

There are a million alternatives to letting kids have guns, because even if they do, the majority of kids wont carry guns and these things will still happen.

And like I said yesterday, yeah a gun can make you feel tough, but you said it yourself, asforme, having a gun doesnt make you invincible. When it comes down to it, most of thse guns would sit in the holsters if someone walked into a class shooting.

[newandimproved]

what LU needs more then anything and has for a long, long time is better lighting around campus...the lighting is so poor all around campus where many people walk at night...that really, really does need to be changed...to me that would make a ton more sense then this whole gun issue

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

Seriously. I dont let my girlfriend walk back to her dorm from the library at night simply because the lighting from demoss to the circle is horrible. No matter what way you go, in front of the vines, there is a few lights but then when you get to the woods, where lights should be, there is nothing. Its even worse on the backside.

Even if my girlfriend had a gun I wouldnt want her walking back at night by herself.

[asforme]

There are no paranoia issues, it's not about a refusal to give up our rights, it's about making campus safer. Along with better lighting ect, we sincerely believe that this is one of the easiest to implement and most effective policies that can be put in place to make campus more safe. LU is currently a very safe campus but we shouldn't wait for a tragedy to motivate us to make campus safer. It is not paranoia, I obviously continue to spend 9-11 hours on campus every day and I do believe that LU is one of the best universities in the nation, but I still believe that this is an issue that could use improvement.

The best effect of concealed carry is the deterrent effect that is so undervalued. Mass shootings happen in gun free zones for a reason. VT is a gun free zone, the entire state of Illinois bans concealed carry, the mall in Nebraska was a gun free zone. These psychos are seeking to do as much damage as possible and do not like the possibility of encountering an armed victim.

From a standpoint of Liberty, if there is not a good reason to have a rule, it shouldn't exist. Is there a good reason to have this rule? It has no effect of keeping criminals from carrying a gun, they already do. It does have an effect of keeping law abiding citizens from defending themselves. It ensures that any attack will be entirely one sided and in favor of the criminal.

Can somebody point to any real evidence that suggests that "gun free zones" are safer than places without restrictions? History consistently shows that the opposite is true, yet many of you want to continue choose the more dangerous option.

We're not talking about kids being picked on by a bully, we're talking about preventing murder, rape and violence. This can be done simply through the deterrent of a criminal knowing that there's a possibility of being met with resistance. Even if someone is required to draw a weapon, most conflicts between criminals and concealed carry permit holders end as soon as the criminal discovers their victim is armed, no shots are ever fired.