[Stevev]

That is very important to recruit top rate talent that is in our own backyard if it happens to be a good fit to university. We have not been too successful in doing this in the past.

[Sly Fox]

Truth be told, local guys only play a small factor at the gate. Back in the late '80s we had a team full of locals and we didn't draw in the community at all. A marquee player or two from Central Virginia will help but its not the answer to our problems at the gate.

[Stevev]

Is our downfall at the gate then our lousy conference situation. I hate to keep bringing it up but I believe it is where our overall problem lies. Casual football fans can't perceive potential rivalries with teams they never heard of or can't relate to.

[Hold My Own]

I think the gate problem is going to handle itself...I know it seems like a billion losses ago but lets not forget the crowds we were getting 2 seasons ago when we were tough...once we start winning it'll take care of itself, i mean you truly had to look hard for a seat on the students side just 2 years ago

[PAmedic]

thanks to our friends on the CCU board for this link to a discussion on our new AD

http://mb19.scout.com/fsouthcarolina191 ... 1584.topic

[Guest]

I subscribe to the win first approach. Win what you can, build on that, then upgrade your schedule as your kids meet challenges, and need new ones. Winning will get seats filled. Win the conference, and students and fans will come. Win the first game, and the 12000 that were at game 1 vs DII Concord. Then, a road trip to UCONN (0-59), and 2 more consecutive whoopings, and attendance is around 3500. Then play the last 3 games on the road, and who gives a darn. What a scheduling debacle! I am not saying to lighten the schedule, but all schools (that care) manipulate their schedule to provide the best opportunity for BOTH success and growth. Get some cash from DI, but the long term investment should be in winning now, and they will come. Psych 101: people want to be associated with a winner at the end of any given saturday in the fall. Gives them bragging rights throughout the work week. Gets 'em pumped for the next weekend. Listen then for the complaining about schedule strength, then upgrade the schedule with momentum. Players respond, fans respond. The changes taken place now will be a boost. If LU were to go 10-1, problems are solved for the moment. LU gear becomes a hot commodity, and there is not enough room for tailgating. Get there at noon for a 7pm kick off. WOO HOO ELLLL UUUU! (rats, it's only january)

[RedDog]

Winning is a good start ... If you win, then recrutiing gets better, fans get in the seats and more people give money ... Winning is a good marketing and fundraising tool ... Here's another one ... The stadium needs to be filled with paying customers and quit giving away so many free tickets ... You can put 12,000 fans in the stadium and think that is a great crowd but when half of it is students and others who don't pay, it doesn't make you any money. They need to build the attendance on paying people from the community so they can make real money.

They also need more money given to the Flames Club to take care of scholarships ... Then more big money on a consistent basis needs to be given in order to build a better budget ... The budget needs to triple if the grandier dreams of D I-A is ever going to take place ... They need to build endowments so when there is no more Art's money and Dr. Falwell is gone, they have something to build a real DI program with ...

[Stevev]

Based on those requirements listed above we have a heck of a long ways to go considering how dreadful our "money sports" have done this year. You have to question LU's committment considering the garbage they put on the field or on the court.

[El Scorcho]

I don't question LU's commitment at all. Sorry, but referring to the current crop of student athletes as "garbage" just doesn't fly with me. We've had a down year, but those kids are still giving everything they've got and I think it's pretty distasteful to call them anything but athletes. LU's commitment to their athletic programs has been made quite clear with the HR decisions they've executed.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[TallyW]

Based on those requirements listed above we have a heck of a long ways to go considering how dreadful our "money sports" have done this year. You have to question LU's committment considering the garbage they put on the field or on the court.

Ohh Stevev... rest easy. A University is blooming before our eyes. Great tradition, pride and a winning program is built over time. We don't like looking in the rear view mirror now that we have perspective, however even Ken Kartcher was thought to be a great step forward (he was coaching in the World League and was a former pro quarterback). For a school like LU to be a big dawg... we have to keep making these steps forward. It's happening.

I don't question at all that this year's transferring and recruiting class will be the best we've ever seen on the Mountain. The new AD is thought to be a creative guy and I'm sure he'll make Flames Football and EVENT and not a game. As for the paying students... it's not really necessary. The D1 numbers don't require the cash from students as long as most of the crowd DOES pay to get in. Again, once we win and once we make Saturdays on the mountain a grand event... it will happen. In baseball terms think of us as going from Independant to single-A right now. Within a few years we'll build to AA and AAA... then we'll apply and make the final changes to go 'pro'--- D1A in football.

It will happen. Everyone relax and throw your weight and $ behind the teams.

As for basketball, I can't say much. I personally haven't come to conclusions there. I'm open to see if this year is a fluke.

[RedDog]

It's not about the students, Liberty has to show 15,000 paid attendance (Not just in attendance) for every game for the entire season for minimun I-A requirements ... How many paid do they have now? ... A long way to go ... Become a good I-AA team before dreaming about bigger

[Stevev]

Okay, so I got a little carried away. I was trying to compare football now vs what we had in 1988 with us moving into 1AA and being competitive right away. And now we have a team that can't beat anyone except Div 2 competition and compete in the worst football conference in the country. And now the effects of basketball is starting to hit me hard and it is like football season never ended as far as I see it. Just look at our national ranking right now in both football and basketball, even though some have questioned the validity of these rankings. It is an embarrassment to Christian colleges to be this bad. And don't get me started about our current conference situation. Hopefully with a new administration in place, seasons like this can be avoided. I know that a great deal of talk has been going around about improvements in these areas and I am starting to really show some interest in football with a new coaching staff in place and some good early recruiting but remember all the talk back in the late 80's concerning going 1A in football with the addition of Sam R. And look where it got us. I am trying to be postitive through this situation and I realize that things will improve (heck, they can't get too much worse than what they are right now) but I guess we will see what next year brings. Sorry if I offended anyone but since I am such a loyal fan it is hard to shake off the effect of this "double wammy".

[TallyW]

It's not about the students, Liberty has to show 15,000 paid attendance (Not just in attendance) for every game for the entire season for minimun I-A requirements ... How many paid do they have now? ... A long way to go ... Become a good I-AA team before dreaming about bigger

RedDog... the students are allowed to count towards the total as long as they have an activity fee. The students don't have to pay per game. If you have 6,000 students coming to games, you only need 9,000 or so who pay at the gate to qualify for the 1-A plan. It's over the span of 2 seasons.

There are only 4 or 5 games at home each year. The administration, local hotels, TRBC, etc. could easily get that stadium filled for 2 years (10 games). That's not a big hurdle. Especially when you consider the push leading into those seasons when we're ready to make that push. That part isn't as difficult as people make it out to be. THEN, once you have the school playing D-1 opponents, people will be there. We will offer something new for central virginia... something more affordable than Tech or UVA and a family atmosphere where you can see great football without having to cover your kids' ears and eyes.

Why are there so many naysayers on here lately

[bigsmooth]

red dog, tally, and steve v have all brought good opinions to the table, and they are all right on. i know steve is very passionate and i like his critical edge we all want LU to be the best, but talking will not do it. everyone needs to give back to LU like tally said. it does not matter how much, just be consistent in giving. it is really gonna be a fun fall at williams stadium and with all the new hires in the athletic dept, and the new recruits/transfers it's gonna be exciting.

[Baldspot]

Not to be a downer but the comparison Stevev made about 1988 - 2006 is a simply a fact. RedDog is also right on about what needs to take place in building an athletic administration. On both accounts we have made no progress in the last 18 years. School finances, the lure of a former head coach, the curse of Morgan Hout or something caused Jerry to stay with the last two head coaches much longer then needed after pulling a fast plug on Morgan. Whatever the reasons, hopefully we can forget the disasters that occurred since Morgan left and hope the current coaching staff and AD build can what should have been started a long time ago.

[RedDog]

I'm a realist not a naysayer ... I know how diffiucult it is to make it financially at the I-A level and Liberty struggles to make it at the I-AA level ... While it may not be as difficult to achieve the attendance part of I-A membership, the financial end is going to take a long time to achieve ...

[Stevev]

There is no sense in sugercoating our horrendous performance on the football field and the hardcourt this year. It is very embarrassing indeed to be a part of this. Facts are facts you know. But like BigSmooth says I think that it will be fun next fall with the changes in the football team with new coaches and some impact players coming in. Hopefully they can turn things around quickly and we can get the respect back that we had in the late 80's and can go from there. I am cautiously optimistic that things will work out for the better this fall.

[TIMSCAR20]

This is a good discussion and all of you bring good points to the table. Red Dog is dead on about attendance and winning being important. I will say that winning is not the only thing that gets people in the stands. If that were the case after 10 years of winning our women's team would be averaging 5-8000 folks per game. Truth is it is closer to 1000. You can say what you want about women's hoops but if 20,000 people can go to regular season SEC and Big East games, then it is not unreasonable to have a top 50 team in Lynchburg draw 5000. Marketing is really, really important and creating an environment that is both entertaining and inviting. I said it on the other board and I have said it to administration on campus. Until we bridge the gap between the Lynchburg community and Liberty/Thomas Road, we will not have the community support we expect to have. Most Lynchburgers that are not in the Thomas Rd circle don't really like or accept or appreciate Dr. Falwell and everything Liberty means to the city. Especially in the black community. In football we are fighting an uphill battle because there is such a gap between 1A games that we see on TV and in Blacksburg and Charlottesville than 1AA football at the highest level. It is almost apples and oranges. IMHO we need to "create" young Liberty fans by going to the elementary schools and all the grade schools and convert them into Liberty fans before they get indoctrinated in the ways of the Hokies and the CAVS.

[TallyW]

IMHO we need to "create" young Liberty fans by going to the elementary schools and all the grade schools and convert them into Liberty fans before they get indoctrinated in the ways of the Hokies and the CAVS.

SCAR,
I'm with ya but can we hold off on using the phrases "convert" and 'indoctrinated' when talking about fans? We ARE evangelical... but i dunno....

[Stevev]

Good points concerning attendence. The women's team actually does quit well in attendence considering the level of play in the conference. The games where we really can expect to draw 5,000+ is when Virginia Tech, Virginia, or some other "Big name" team comes into town. Maybe it has something to do with the Lynchburg community being able to relate to a " big time " program vs a virtual "no-name" which is what we get in the Big South. The Lynchburg community can't relate to the Charleston Southern's and the UNC Ashville's of the world. Radford may do a little better since it is close.
The men's team did there best the last 2 years of Jeff Meyer which brought in 5,000 to 6,000 which happened to be some of the better years and the publicity of Peter Aluma's preseason all-American recognition. The last Mel Hankinson year brought in about 1,500. So it appears to be a direct relationship between winning and lossing and overall competitiveness. Not much of a dropoff between conference and non-conference games with the exception of JMU, VCU, and of course Virginia Tech which drew 8,000 to 9,000. The same thing applies to football with a big dropoff later in the year after homecoming when and if the team flops.

[TIMSCAR20]

Well Steve, you make a good point about the attendance during the Meyer era except that I was on that staff the last 2 seasons and Red Dog was around then too so he can vouch for this but we really reached out to the community during those years. I personally would take 1 or 2 players to the local schools to speak and to meet kids and give out tickets. We also had bill boards all over the city talking about the team and there was a lot of hype from the SID about Aluma in various magazines. I have to disagree with the opponents bringing down our women's basketball attendance. Having a winning team and a good product should at least attract some of the students. There are never more than 5-800 students at most games. I just think we miss opportunities. Katie Feenstra's senior year and especially senior night should have been on everyone's mind and we should have had pictures and stats and everything related to the 6-8'' phemom all over Lynchburg (Sort of like we tried to do with Aluma). I am not taking a shot at Proto or anyone in the SID but I do think the local media should have been in her face a lot more and not just during the NCAA's. We could have done a better job of talking about her on FTN as well. The more important thing in all of this is community outreach IMHO. Advertising can only do so much. Making a personal connection is priceless.

[RedDog]

SCAR is correct ... Meyer was good at reaching out and stroking the community and the atmosphere during those last two Meyer years was outstanding especially during the BSC Tournaments ... There are other demographic regions as SCAR mentioned that needs to be tapped and the on-going battle between the Falwell community vs. the non-Falwell community in Lynchburg has to be addressed as well ...

One of the other differences IMO why Virginia and Virginia Tech draw so well is their conference affiliation ... They bring quality recognized opponents into their places non-conference and conference THAT TRAVEL WITH A LOT OF THEIR OWN FANS (Football more than basketball but also for basketball), thus buying more tickets, concessions, parking and putting people in the seats to fill the stadium, arenas ... We might bring a quality opponent into play but if they don't bring very many people, so it doesn't help ... That is why LU has 6-8000 for a Virginia Tech or Virginia because they travel to support their team.

[bigsmooth]

we cannot compare ourselves to UVA and VT. We need to be comparing ourselves to JMU, and W&M when it comes to football, as they are perennial playoff teams who would draw about the same amount of fans. as far as who UVA and VT bring in non-conference, they may bring in one good game, but the rest are average. those schools have long established alumni and endowments and their booster clubs are raising money to fund scholarships and facilities renovations and new facilities. though i agree with much of what red dog says, maybe 20-30 years down the road we can compare ourselves to those schools, and maybe even model a plan that will bring success, but now i feel we need to look at schools similar in size and what their athletic depts. are all about, and make a model that will take us past them.

[Stevev]

Right on concerning a comparison to JMU and William and Mary. Those are the programs which we have to be measured up to right now and add to that list Richmond, App State, Furman and other Colonial or Southern conference teams. Also the comment concerning conference affiliation is right on. The Big South just doesn't cut it as far as drawing interest from the outside community but it is an obsticle we must eventually overcome.

[TIMSCAR20]

I think this current basketball staff does some community outreach as well. I know they have that reading club. Zach Jones has talked about getting out to the barber shops and reaching the black community as well. I think the steps are being taken in the right direction. Rocco seems like he would be great in the community and if Jeff Barber can come in here with a dynamic, energetic personality, that bridge to the non-Falwell community will be built. Good discussion though. I think we are all in one accord here.