[phoenix]

I believe that alot of preachers should throw themselves out. Sad, but true. Along with what Sly said, there is a growing trend to hide salaries and other expenditures in a broad based budget. The pastor has the power to give himself raises without any recourse or even scrutiny from membership. This is wrong!

A pastor can't change the budget without a business meeting; at least in the churches I've been involved in.

I agree that there has to be a measure of transparency in financial matters -- the problem is that I've seen things quickly degrade into "He's making THAT MUCH? What's he do to deserve that?" and "I can't believe we pay the pianist that much. What does she do except play on Sunday Mornings?" and things like that, so I can understand why churches like to keep individual salaries private. But I'd never be a part of a church, either as a member or a pastor, that didn't believe in financial transparency and accountability.

And churches can get rid of pastors as easily as pastors can get rid of church members -- sometimes easier. You don't read the articles about preachers who get fired because they expect their congregations to actually be involved (gasp!) or some other really lame excuses (preacher insulted my mother's choice of carpet, preacher got rid of the pews that my great-great grandfather donated {even though they were falling apart}), but it happens all the time.

[scuzdriver]

We left a semi large SBC church a couple of years ago due to the facts I said above. The pastor had complete control over everything, including the budget. It was more of a dictatorship then anything. Too bad, I got married in that church and attended for years until this guy showed up. Let me say, finding a new church sucks!

[TallyW]

BB- I think you have a good question when discussing church discipline to ask about membership. It seems pretty germane to me.

Church "membership" is biblical from the standpoint of knowing who is in the local congregation. Paul told local elders to discipline people based on the idea that those folks were a part of that local body. The point your Pastor friend was likely making was that those bodies were more like city-churches. Today we have 10 churches within a block of one another and each has their own "membership" so the idea of "membership" in today's terms isn't exactly what scripture references when it speaks to a particular "church" in scripture. Scripture was more like city-church and today is more like the first 3 dozen people we can get in a room.


Back to the legit question of accountability I think we have to consider two parts of this. (when I say 'you' to follow, I mean all of us in general... not one word of what I'm saying refers to any other post)

1. You should submit your family only to leadership you can trust speak on God's behalf. Meaning... if you don't trust a person as being a man whom God has called and placed as your Shepard... leave. Sly to your credit it sounds that you ultimately felt that these leaders weren't those to whom you felt God would want you to serve under. As the leader of your family (along with your wife) you made that decision.

There are times when you (we) won't agree with the leader's decision (think about the people of Israel for about 3 minutes) but it doesn't mean they are "wrong". There are times we just don't have the information they have and we dont' have the calling to lead as they do. It's important we don't judge our leaders as if they work FOR us. They dont. Church leaders work for God and scripture tells us not to become a burden on them. Galatians even instructs us to tell them that they're doing a good job (share all good things with your instructor- 6:6). I think God knew that we'd need to be reminded to thank those who lead and teach us God's word. Expecting our church leaders to answer to 100 bosses (members) is not the "calling".

2. There is an ultimate "boss" who will fire the false prophet. The fact that most of us have horror stories about the abuse of power shows that what's done in the darkness will be revealed in the light and the last I checked, scripture says that its HIS (God's) church. With that being said, a screwed up Pastor is on God's altar. Pastors answer to Him and most (if not all) will pay dearly for their screw ups. When the individual in the congregation feels that they have to be the one to carry out "Accountability" it always ends bad.

Do Pastors need "accountability"? Yes. Where does true accountability come from? Affinity. There are people in a leader's life who are close enough to make calls I cannot make as a lay person. I have to lift up my leaders in prayer and I have to trust God that He'll speak through those who have affinity IF there is a problem. Again, if you have a problem with your Pastor, go and talk to Him. Follow Matthew 18. Don't be a gossip in the name of Christ. As if God needs your (our) gossip which he despises in order to punish wayward leaders. Speak to those you don't understand, ask why they do what they do and trust during the entire time that He's God's man for your church. Every time I've had that attitude come toward me I was able to easily point out the procedures and reasons.

So yes churches need accountability... no one needs a congregation's worth. Scripture says we're to "restore that person gently". How many Pastors have been approached openly, honestly, in love and restored gently? Very Few. It's almost always someone or some group who has no clue what they're talking about who cause division (because they don't have accountability) and the Pastor(s) is/are forced to get that person back in check and to some the Pastor looks like a jerk trying to save face. He's in many cases really an honest leader appointed by God to Shepard the flock. How do you think a Shepard reacts to a wolf threatening the sheep? He's usually not kind and passive.


We all need accountability. Lets just be sure we're ALL accountable and we're ALL following biblical principles to come to our conclusions. Let's not make emotional decisions and try to use flowery words pulled out of context from the bible to justify our behavior. In all things lets keep our prayer life up so we can all listen to that ONE Holy Spirit who doesn't have schizophrenia. At the end of the day if we do this, we'll have stronger churches.

[phoenix]

We left a semi large SBC church a couple of years ago due to the facts I said above. The pastor had complete control over everything, including the budget. It was more of a dictatorship then anything. Too bad, I got married in that church and attended for years until this guy showed up. Let me say, finding a new church sucks!

Then you needed to be out of that church, and someone needs to teach that pastor a class about Biblical accountability. And I agree with you -- it's not easy finding a good church.

I went to a large IFB church when I was in high school that was pastor-led to the extent that he picked his successor when he left -- the church was really given no say in the matter. Didn't like it then, and promised myself I'd never do it again. Since then, we've been in good churches that had the proper balance of leadership.

That said, there's also something wrong with a church where the pastor isn't in charge of anything. I've seen those, too -- deacon-run or trustee-run churches are just as bad, if not worse.

[scuzdriver]

Agreed phoenix. By the way, we did find a good church after a long hunt.

[phoenix]

One of my favorite bloggers has written a letter to the WSJ reporter who covered this story, and has posted it online. Very interesting piece, and a good take on a tough subject.

[FlameDad]

Excellent letter, a great example of a christian "speaking the truth in love".....