[El Scorcho]

Preface/Warning: I've given much thought as to how I'd like to approach the can of worms I'm about to open, and I have yet to come up with a way I believe will go over well. In light of that, I decided I still wanted to talk about it rather than just let it go. I have the feeling that it will probably be (at least somewhat) misinterpreted by some, if not completely misunderstood by all. I'm not sure I'll even be able to put into words what it is that I've been mulling over in my head. Anyway, here goes nothing...

I've spent over a decade at Liberty now, with my state of association varying along the way. For most of that time I've been of the opinion that Liberty, on the whole, is successful in its mission. I feel that the school does a pretty admirable job of training young champions for Christ. However, in recent times I've felt that as a higher education institution we're lacking something. It's not something that I think is completely tangible. It's more of an attitude or spirit than anything. To me, it seems we have a hard time embracing intelligence.

Please don't misunderstand me. I believe we have a lot of intelligent people here. (That includes professors, students and staff.) However, I get this feeling that while we encourage academic achievement and success, we aren't very welcoming to intelligence in general. There seems to be an attitude that someone can be too smart. I've never felt that "vibe" at other schools the way I have here. I'm not sure why it is, but it does bother me on some level. It's not like it's a predominant feeling either. It's just a subtle feeling I've picked up on over time.

I've been wondering if it's that we've adopted an anti-intellectual spirit because those we're so often fighting against tend to wallow in that sort of thing. It would be a shame if that were true. It's sort of the same kind of feel I get about science at LU. Because of our stance on the origin of life, we embrace science to a point, but anything past that point seems to be ignored. Maybe I'm not connected enough in the academic community at LU to understand our views in general on science, physics and the like. At the same time, it's not like we've exactly been at the forefront of research or academic discovery. Now I'm just rambling.

Anyway, this isn't necessarily a criticism, but more of a wish for better understanding about what LU's academic goals are. I think that we do a great job of education and vocational training, but it just feels like it's somewhat limited in scope. Perhaps this is all just a bunch of nonsense and I shouldn't be thinking out loud. I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed this and/or if anyone else cares?

[LUconn]

I haven't noticed anything like that. But I don know that a couple of our science profs are pretty well known/respected/disrespected for what they do.

[Cider Jim]

it's not like we've exactly been at the forefront of research or academic discovery.

Well, Scorcho, professors like Dr. Habermass, Dr. Towns, and Dr. DeWitt are regionally if not nationally known for their research in a variety of areas--the resurrection, church growth, and alzheimers. Plus, with our brand new engineering major and our fairly new law school, those professors are or will be publishing in their fields on a national level.

Will we ever be a research institution like UVa, Cal-Berkeley, or MIT? Probably not, but we are lot stronger academically than we used to be (two examples):
(1) I think over 70% of our faculty now hold terminal degrees (doctorates or MFAs);
(2) Our student body has 34 National Merit Finalists and 480 Honors Program students (ave SAT of over 1340).

Still, I'm haunted by a quote that I used to hear in chapel every so often: "He would have to be a Ph.D. to be that stupid."

[ALUmnus]

Can't say that I agree at all with that one. But you just opened the door wide open for all the liberal-leaners on here to take their wacks at the school.

[Fumblerooskies]

Maybe in past years, Scorcho...but I am sensing a shift in the attitude in LU's academics that parallels the attitude shift in athletics. It will take time.

[LUconn]

Yeah scorch, I gotta wonder why this came up. Is it our (and by our, I guess I mean our profs) stance on evolution? On global warming. I don't even know what our profs say about that. I know what us as conservatives normally think about it. I know I myself question much that comes out that is supposedly "scientific" that would get me laughed out of the secular relm. But just because something is generally excepted doesn't make it right. Not that I am questioning science itself, but what it has become, or how it is used. That normally will be looked at as "intellectually dishonest" in most of the worlds eyes.

[El Scorcho]

it's not like we've exactly been at the forefront of research or academic discovery.

Well, Scorcho, professors like Dr. Habermass, Dr. Towns, and Dr. DeWitt are regionally if not nationally known for their research in a variety of areas--the resurrection, church growth, and alzheimers. Plus, with our brand new engineering major and our fairly new law school, those professors are or will be publishing in their fields on a national level.

Will we ever be a research institution like UVa, Cal-Berkeley, or MIT? Probably not, but we are lot stronger academically than we used to be (two examples):
(1) I think over 70% of our faculty now hold terminal degrees (doctorates or MFAs);
(2) Our student body has 34 National Merit Finalists and 480 Honors Program students (ave SAT of over 1340).

Still, I'm haunted by a quote that I used to hear in chapel every so often: "He would have to be a Ph.D. to be that stupid."

Thank you. This was the kind of answer I was looking for. I am aware of Dr. Habermas and Dr. DeWitt (how can you not be?), but I do wonder a lot if there are things that are going on that I'm not aware of. I agree that the School of Engineering and School of Law will go a long way for academic rigour and exposure, and I'm excited about that. I'm particularly excited to see what develops out of the engineering program.

Those statistics are also encouraging, though I do realize our admissions philosophy will always weigh down the academic weight of the student body. I'm completely fine with that. I guess I'm just really interested in what's cooking around here academically. With all of the excitement about athletics this week, I'm looking to see what's happening with the rest of the school.

[El Scorcho]

Can't say that I agree at all with that one. But you just opened the door wide open for all the liberal-leaners on here to take their wacks at the school.

That's fine. I'm not looking for someone to agree or disagree with me. Like I said, I'm just thinking aloud.

And since when have liberals needed someone to open a door for them to take a crack at LU?

[Fumblerooskies]

I think it is fine to bring it up...
...makes for some outstanding discourse.

[El Scorcho]

Yeah scorch, I gotta wonder why this came up. Is it our (and by our, I guess I mean our profs) stance on evolution?

It just came up out of my own personal thoughts and observations. Just a curiosity of mine. Nothing more. It is not because of our stance on evolution. I will say, however, that my thinking may have stemmed from some tendencies regarding scientific issues that I think stems from our (yes, including mine) views on evolution and the like. I definitely don't look at science as God, but I do think we have an interesting academic relationship with it.

[Cider Jim]

Scorcho, for what it's worth, LU has some amazingly intelligent and well-read students: LU's academics were show-cased last year when LU's Quiz Bowl team defeated the College of William & Mary's team by 120 points at the regionals at UT-Knoxville and finished 5th in the Southeast region of the country.

And of course everyone knows about our Debate team winning over 10 consecutive national championships.

[El Scorcho]

Scorcho, for what it's worth, LU has some amazingly intelligent and well-read students: LU's academics were show-cased last year when LU's Quiz Bowl team defeated the College of William & Mary's team by 120 points at the regionals at UT-Knoxville and finished 5th in the Southeast region of the country.

And of course everyone knows about our Debate team winning over 10 consecutive national championships.

Thanks, Prof. I was not aware of the Quiz Bowl team's achievements, but that's great to hear. I am, of course, aware of our debate accomplishments. I think we have some great academic minds here, and we've certainly proven ourselves capable.

I guess my question is more along the lines of what we're doing with all of this talent, since we do have it here. I understand your comparative statement from earlier in the thread regarding LU as a research institution versus the schools you mentioned. But even if we're not on that level, does that mean we'll produce nothing at all? That's why I'm so excited about the school of engineering and the wireless lab we've inherited/refurb'ed. It seems like there's some potential for us to actually do some research that will produce usable results. That's something I've not seen a lot of here, and that's what's spawned all of this. (Although, now that I think about it, I do remember Dr. Mix's ginkgo-biloba study a few years back. That was pretty interesting.)

[RubberMallet]

i will say that all my friends that graduated with business degrees from numerous other colleges seemed to get a alot more information than we ever did in the business program....i'm not saying its a bad program but i always felt it was a little lacking....

[LUconn]

I don't think this was a question about academics really. I thought it was about our general attitude towards intelligence or intellecutal people as if we feel those folks are elitists or something and it's something to be looked down upon. I really do disagree though.

[El Scorcho]

I don't think this was a question about academics really. I thought it was about our general attitude towards intelligence or intellecutal people as if we feel those folks are elitists or something and it's something to be looked down upon. I really do disagree though.

Yes, that's right. This wasn't a question of our academic standing at all. And I'm really not saying that's how things are, I'm just saying that it's how I've perceived things to be in recent times. I'll readily admit I could be completely wrong, and that's absolutely fine. (Great, in fact.) I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of it. That's why I said in my last post that I'd really like to see us contributing to the academic community, specifically in scientific fields. I don't feel like our views on the origins of life cripples us in any way, but we don't really do that justice by not doing any scientific research/development. And again, that's what has me so excited about the engineering program. There's the prospect for the university to produce and contribute.

Actually, I suppose all of this is because we don't have any science-related graduate programs. That will probably change down the road as the engineering program grows and matures, but right now it's pretty much a big bummer.

See? Just thinking out loud. (And trying to pass the time between football seasons.)

[JDUB]

the way i understand schorch is saying the attitude is what bothers him. i think i understand what he is talking about.

many students here have the attitude of doing very little work and getting by. When applied to academics this means that they are not learning much.
i know there are some very smart people here at LU, but in most majors you get out of it what you put into it. some people get by without much work, and thus dont learn a whole lot

[Sly Fox]

I think you hit the nail on the head in the opening post of this thread. The traditional haughtiness of academia (sorry for stepping on some toes but I's generalizing here for the sake of this discussion) is something that Dr. Falwell always took great pride in challenging head on. The school was built with a maverick attitude that we were going to be different than the ivy-covered bastions of liberal thought. So even though we are far from distancing ourselves from intellectual thought, there remains an underlying suspicion.

Frankly my family is loaded with terminal degrees (and many count me as a black sheep as a result) and as a result I've never been overly impressed with titles. But if we are going to accomplish our mission of give the best possible training of Champions for Christ then we need to constantly be striving to make improvements.

[Fumblerooskies]

This is where the rigorous process in selecting and hiring faculty at LU comes into play...embracing and living the Christian Worldview. Our faculty are not identified by their terminal degrees, scholarly research, the amounts of grant money that can be brought into the university, etc...that you would find at a secular university...
...but are defined by our passion for Christ...and at the risk of sounding corny...educating young champions for Christ. Having a non-tenure policy also adds to that...as it keeps out those who may not live or embrace the Liberty philosophy in their actual teaching once hired.

The secular worldview embraces the person who is identified by his degrees...his published research...the monies that are brought in to the university...that is who they are and those are their roles...education comes second. (One of my uncles is a tenured faculty member at a large research university...and the holiday conversations with him has helped me appreciate what we have a LU even more.)

[El Scorcho]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the thought and time you're putting into these responses. (And that you've responded at all. I do realize I'm rambling quite a bit.) I honestly though I'd be burned at the stake before the thread was over with the way it started. I'm just asking questions. I'm not really looking to make a statement here. I just think that since my academic experience (and professional career, for that matter) has been limited to Liberty, it's sometimes hard for me to grasp exactly where we stand in the world of academics.

Sly: I'm not someone who has ever been impressed by terminal degrees, either. (You can only fix stupid computer problems for Ph.D.'s, Th.D.'s, etc. so many times before they lose their shine.) I'm definitely a results-oriented person. That's why I'm asking questions about research and our university's contribution to the academic and scientific worlds. I kind of answered that for myself before when I finally considered that we don't offer any scientific graduate programs (yet), but I'm still very interested to see what we can put out there. I'd just like to see us make as large of an impression in the academic world as what I feel we're making in the athletic world right now.

Fumble: I don't think our mission is corny at all, so I don't think you were taking a risk there at all. I'm quite proud of that mission, and proud that we're able to attract faculty and staff who share pride in seeing it executed. I'm proud that we're able to do what we do and proud of how we do it. I would never want to sacrifice education for research or see LU become one of those schools where grants and research dominate life. I'd just like to see us put all of the prime gray matter around here to good use.

[Sly Fox]

One of my uncles is a department head at one of the fastest growing Christian colleges in America. And he is frustrated by what he feels is the inability of their administration to hire only those who adhere to the school's mission. It waters down the Christian experience if you are just hiring a resume and not a person. He admires what LU is doing with the yearly contracts even though he rather enjoys the privileges of tenure.

[FlameDad]

This is where the rigorous process in selecting and hiring faculty at LU comes into play...embracing and living the Christian Worldview. Our faculty are not identified by their terminal degrees, scholarly research, the amounts of grant money that can be brought into the university, etc...that you would find at a secular university...
...but are defined by our passion for Christ...and at the risk of sounding corny...educating young champions for Christ. Having a non-tenure policy also adds to that...as it keeps out those who may not live or embrace the Liberty philosophy in their actual teaching once hired.

The secular worldview embraces the person who is identified by his degrees...his published research...the monies that are brought in to the university...that is who they are and those are their roles...education comes second. (One of my uncles is a tenured faculty member at a large research university...and the holiday conversations with him has helped me appreciate what we have a LU even more.)

Fumble has articulated the key difference between Liberty and secular institutions - may it never change.

[Cider Jim]

Scorcho, my understanding is that our biology majors score around the 97th percentile in their national exams, and that many of our biology profs are mentoring their students with their (the profs) own research regarding the salamanders in the area. For some reason, Lynchburg and Bedford Country have some rare type of slamanders that the profs here have been researching and studying for decades (though to me they still look like fish bait).

Also, 15 or 20 years ago we were hiring mostly faculty who were ABD just out of grad schools, but now we are hiring many more Ph.D's who have lots of college teaching experience, and many are leaving tenure-track state school positions to teach at Liberty. Why? Because they are fed up with the lack of tolerance state schools have toward Christian profs, and they want to come here where they can, as Fumble and Jerry used to say, educate "Young Champions for Christ."

[4everfsu]

Very good subject. Let me take you back to the beginning of LBC, if you had told me that LBC or LU would have a nursing major, engineering degree, law school, we the students then would have just looked at you and laughed!
I dont think we even had a math major back then, we had bible, missions, music, education, TV and Radio and psychology.
I don't think LU even has a physic major do we? If not I would like to see that added. How about chemistry do we have that? I would love to see that along with astronomy or astrophysics being offered as a major.
What a great major to offer, that studies the handiwork of God. Be great to use with our belief of creation, etc.

Anyway that is my 2 cents worth

[El Scorcho]

Very good subject. Let me take you back to the beginning of LBC, if you had told me that LBC or LU would have a nursing major, engineering degree, law school, we the students then would have just looked at you and laughed!
I dont think we even had a math major back then, we had bible, missions, music, education, TV and Radio and psychology.
I don't think LU even has a physic major do we? If not I would like to see that added. How about chemistry do we have that? I would love to see that along with astronomy or astrophysics being offered as a major.
What a great major to offer, that studies the handiwork of God. Be great to use with our belief of creation, etc.

Anyway that is my 2 cents worth

Great perspective, 4everfsu. I suppose it is very easy (for me, anyway) to take our current state of academics for granted.

To answer your questions: No, we do not currently offer a degree in physics. We also do not currently offer a degree strictly in chemistry. We do, however, offer a degree in biochemistry. We also offer a B.S. in biology (with concentrations in molecular biology, general biology, environmental sciences and premed).

[4everfsu]

Scorcho, thanks for the info. I would like to see LU build up its science majors asap. Again very good question on your part.